Talk:United States/Archive 7

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America

Fiction: A new country called the United States of Europe is created in the modern territory of France, Spain and Portugal. This new country calls itself Europe and calls its citizens Europeans.

How would you feel if you were German, or Italian, or Polish and the names Europe and European were stolen from you forever (and in many different languages)? This is the same way we Latin Americans feel when the US calls itself America and its citizens Americans. This needs not be endorsed by an English language dictionary or encyclopedia to make it appear more valid or truer. It exists in the real world and it is very offensive, and worth of a mention in, yes, the English Wikipedia.

-- User: anonymous

Take the word 'Columbia,' (or 'Colombia') which, like the case you mentioned, originally connoted the entirety of the New World land mass. I see no-one in an uproar over a South American country's decision to incorporate a vague 16th-century geographical classification into the name of a proper country, for good reason. The simple fact of the matter is that both 'America' and 'Columbia' are terms, once broad and synonymous in the English language centuries ago, that have come to represent specific political entities over which there is no confusion. It is funny that you mention the 'theft' of the name of Europe without specifically mentioning the Greeks, for if you knew your history, 'Europa' was a term that began its life as a name for mainland Greece, then by degrees spread its way over to encompass the entire continent. Yet public outrage over this seems to be astoundingly quiet...

We North Americans do make a distinction between people on the two continents: Latin Americans and North Americans (Canada and the U.S.). The term 'American' refers to citizens of the U.S., because that country has the name 'America' in its title. I see this as more of an advantage in specificity rather than an ethnocentric hindrance; in any case, you must admit, it's a far better practice than saying the word 'American' and having free association from Canada to Chile coming to mind over what it could mean. The people of the Netherlands have the proper perspective to realize the somewhat-awkward English use of the word 'Dutch' does not connote Germans (Deutsch), or German-speaking peoples on the Continent (as it once did around the mid-19th century). But both Dutch and native speakers do not pretend that the contemporary use of the word has any broader connotation within the language. Thus, to take offense over the nomenclature issues of the word American in English is an effort to impose the conventions of your culture on a different one, which, given the current status of the word, would be unwieldy in practice and fairly unnecessary as well.

--Cantus 08:32, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The English language is described in English dictionaries. "American" is proper usage in English for the U.S., and English speakers regard what Spanish and Portuguese speakers classify as one continent, as two continents, North American and South America. The resentment sets in when you insist on using Spanish cultural differences (one America) when speaking English (N & S America, the Americas). You will need to adjust, or get the English language to adjust, if you don't like current use. But Wikipedia is here to report what is, not what you think should be. Therefore we will gladly report that someone (though a named someone or a printed source objecting to the use would be good) is displeased with standard English usage, but we must also report that the use of the word America to apply to the United States of America is not considered an offensive or a pejorative usage in any English dictionary or usage guide. - Nunh-huh 08:43, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

For all I know Canadians are equally offended by the "generous" application of the term onto the USA citizen's alone. So I think it is a bit patronising the way you come down here onto the Southamerican contributor above. Further US-English is but one variety of many of English and you must not impose US usage on others here in the Wikipedia Refdoc 21:36, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

As a Canadian I would just like to say that we don't care. We don't think of outselves as Americains, we are Canadians and we like it that way.

I myself find it amazing for people to accuse Americans for being arrogant and self-important for calling themselves such. The points made by Nunh-huh and Cantus pretty much cover it; and as I understand it, no one had problems back when the United States broke from the U.K. I may be going out on a limb here, but to my knowledge, the United States was among the first colonized nations of the American continents to become independent. An alliance of independent nation-states in America; hence, "United States of America." From far back as 1812, I've found texts that show everyone referring to people of the United States as "Americans." In all, the name describes what it was, and what still is, though many other former colonies exist as nation-states now. To be offended, cry arrogance, and demand a change without knowing the process behind the creation of these words ... hrmph. For Refdoc; why would you accuse Cantus and Nunh-huh of forcing the U.S. English dictionary meanings down everyone's throat? I'm quite certain that in other forms of English, things are exactly the same.

-- User: Anonymous

I was wondering if it makes sense to explain how the word "America" in the United States of America came to be. There seems to be no indication of that in the article. Most countries' articles seem to explain how the name of that country was derived so I thought that might be something useful to include in this article. AreJay 14:19, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think there has been a huge misunderstanding surrounding the use of the word "American". As an American, I can tell you that when we use it we are consciously including all of North and South America (and perhaps the world?). In this sense, American loses all meaning and dissolves into one great mushy love fest.

We're saying "Gosh, we're just a little ol' bit of this *great* *big* *world*! And we wouldn't have it any other way!"

So you see it is actually a way of being humble, the opposite of arrogant.

I mean, after all, when you get right down to it, aren't we *all* Americans?

group hug!

Seriously though, which adjectival form is open to us? Our country's name is the United States of America, often abbreviated as U.S.A. So what does that make me? A United States of American? A USAian? There's no option open to me *except* _American_.

curtains 7:40, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Opening sentence

From LaurelBush 16:37, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) (Laurel Bush - 16 Kennedy Terrace - UK - KWI 5BN):

I suggest the article's opening sentence should read

“The United States of America, also referred to as the United States, U.S.A., U.S., America,¹ or the States, is a sovereign power and federal republic centred on Washington DC in central North America …”

The expression ‘sovereign power’ places the US on a map of sovereign powers, of which others include the UK (centred on London or Westminster), France (Paris) and Ireland (Dublin). Or is 'UN-recognised sovereign power' more precise?

How about "country"? —Michael Z. 2005-01-28 16:47 Z

I second the motion to use the word country. Terms of art like 'federal republic' and 'sovereign power' belong in the article, but further down. brassrat

American versus USean

I removed the following:

¹America is incorrectly used to refer to the nation of the United States. Actually America is the name of a continent ranging to the Canadian North Pole to the Chilean South Pole. This continent was named after the Italian cartographer Amerigo Vespucci. Most people from this continent, mainly Latinamericans, find offensive the use of the term American to mean a citizen of the United States of America. The correct and proper way in Spanish to address to a Citizen of the United States of America is Estadounidense which could easily be translated to English as USean (the pronunciation of US is a usual and ean as in FloridEAN.

and replaced it with (from a previous edit):

¹America may refer to the nation of the United States or to the Americas—North and South America. The later usage is more common in Latin American countries where the Spanish word América refers to both continents. The United States is a less ambiguous term and less likely to cause offense. Unfortunately the term American meaning a citizen or national of the United States has no straightforward unambiguous synonym.

America is not incorrect in this use. It is accepted in the United States, and overseas as well. Germans use it this way. Polish use it this way. British use it this way. I'd wager that plenty of others do as well. It is therefore accepted and correct. It is ambiguous, but correct.

Additionally, America is not a single continent. America may refer to the North American and South American continents collectively, but that's two continents, not one. In English, we refer to The Americas to specify both continents. The use of the word America to refer to The Americas in English is rare at best, and nonexistent at worst. This is an English language encyclopedia. As such, we should follow English standards. If Spanish-speaking people use the word America differently, that's fine. They have their use. We have ours.

Finally, USean/USian sounds ridiculous in English. Again, if it works in Spanish, keep it there. We don't attempt to force Anglicizations on Spanish language texts. It's equally inappropriate to attempt to force Latinizations (better word for this?) on English texts.

If anyone has a good compromise, please, add your input.

-- Dpark 06:18, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think it should stay. That "USean/USian" sounds ridicolous is YOUR opinion, and is not enough reason to remove a whole paragraph. What, your view suddently became universal, eh? BAH! Besides, it's "The Americans, not "The Americas". That sounds like some backwatered mexican-town way of pronouncin' it. So speak for yourself: What's so wrong with spanish influences to the text (You DO know that English has been made up by "rip-off's" from the Latinic language, right?) when YOU make "The Americas" rare at best? Prepostirous, in their world "Americans" would be as rare as well - It all depends, not on your imperialistic view, 'tho. Not only that, you're lynching negroes - Removing the thing about Amerigo Vespucci too, which is, in fact, RIGHT....and you're too using an hypocrisy, since you do the same. And Spanish? 'Tis not latinization, but espanozifications. It's more justifyable to "force" (it's not even that, since it's sometimes used) Spanish on English since English was, in fact, MADE UP by a few Spanish words. English was not. Therefore, it cannot be equal. The paragraph's should stay.--OleMurder 09:56, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The inclusion of the conjured terms USean and USian would amount to advocacy of use of those terms, which are simply not in anything resembling what could be called "common use". The unqualified term American is by far the most common word used to describe citizens of the United States; and in English almost always refers to people of that country. The qualified terms North American, Central American and South American are used to denote regional origin. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 10:28, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If there is ever a need (which in my experience is rare) to describe someone as being from North or South America more generally than "North American" or "South American" the phrase "from the Americas" is used instead. In British English "American" is almost always used to mean "a person from the United States of America" unless it is being used to make a point about Canada/Canadians (usually) or Mexico/Mexicans (less frequently). In the future the same may happen with regard "European" as countries such as Norway and Switzerland are geographically in Europe but not in the European Union (then you have Cyprus which is culturally European and a member of the EU, but geographically in Asia. Turkey may also join the EU in future, and that is partly in Europe but the vast majority is in Asia). In short, use American but explain that while it is potentially ambiguous it is by far the most common term in the English-speaking world (or, in other words, do what the article currently does). It might be worth a mention that USean has been proposed as an alternative by some, but hasn't caught on in popular usage. Thryduulf 10:50, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Dpark and Tony Sidaway on this. The whole USean bit comes out of nowhere with no support or sommon usage and doesn;t even really make much sense overall. Including it would be advocacy/personal research/nonnotable/unverifiable/vanity and a long list of other things violating Wikipedia policy. DreamGuy 10:51, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Wow, you totally went off on some tangents, there. I'll try to actually address your stuff, though.

I'm pretty sure that many or most natively English-speaking people would agree that USean sounds ridiculous. It's not just my opinion. We don't form words like that. If we did, we'd have words like "NASAean" to describe someone who works for NASA, or NATOean for a member of NATO. We don't form words that way, though. As others pointed out, including the term would be tantamount to endorsing it. Just because a few people think its a good idea doesn't mean we should endorse it. I'm sure I could round up a few people who think it'd be fun to refer to Europeans as "EUs" (pronounced "eews"). But having a few crazy supporters does not make it worthy of inclusion in the article about Europe.

No, it's not "The Americans". No one ever uses that term to refer to North and South America collectively. "The Americans" would typically refer to the citizens of the US.

What's wrong with Spanish influences? Nothing, when they occur naturally. We've incorporated words such as "siesta" over time, and that fine. It's not fine to force wierd Spanish-esque words on English speakers to avoid offending a few zealots, though. (Your understanding of the history of the English language is lacking, and I will not address the claims that it's made up of Latin language "rip-offs". You can read about the English language for yourself if you wish.)

We're not "lynching negroes". And if you cannot reply in a civil manner, your opinion will not be respected.

I removed the whole paragraph. I wasn't specifically trying to remove the bit about Amerigo Vespucci. It just got dropped in the shuffle. If that information is important, though, it might be better to simply add it to the article, or link to Americas where it's further explained. It was rather out of place in that footnote.

"espanozifications" is most definitely not a word, though it's quite fun to say.

It's not justifiable to force Spanish on the English language. You haven't given any reason why this is acceptable, and I'm sorry, but your opinion, however zealous, is not a valid reason. And again, please read about the English language before making claims about it being "made up by a few Spanish words".

-- Dpark 15:17, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Dpark, for your rational post. Here is the entire USean/USonian "controversy" in a nutshell: in Europe, most specifically in France, a mini-debate now rages around the term "American". In France, some want to replace the term "américain(e)" with the neologism "états-unien(ne)". This so-called movement is ideological and more often than not linked to virulent anti-Americanism. The French Wiki site is not immune to the debate, and many contributors prefer the new term. But the English-speaking world is not France; it is not drawn in to the same kind of political slugfests; it does not yet see "American" as imposed by imperialist running dogs. Rather, "American" is simply standard usage in both U.S. and British English. Wikipedia will accept "USonian" once it is standard usage, and not before. We should not impose a (very) weak and (very) politicized neologism upon every English article in Wikipedia. --Mason (a francophile American)

Thanks for your reply. I can (sort of) understand why some people want to use the terms America and American to refer to the Americas and any citzen thereof, and if it were common usage, I might agree with them. What I want to avoid are the "political slugfests" you refer to. I'm hoping we can reach a consensus and simply point to it whenever there's a disagreement on usage of America/American. I'm also wanting to avoid the petty reverting/re-reverting that happens with miles vs km already. So far it looks like no one actually sees "USean" as valid common usage, but instead as what they wish was common usage. And in that light, I definitely think we should keep it out of articles unless/until it actually makes its way into common usage. -- Dpark 19:52, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've added the following to the first note: Many alternative words for American have been proprosed, but none have enjoyed widespread acceptance. Perhaps that's an acceptable compromise. It presents the possibility of other terms, without appearing to actively endorse them. -- Dpark 21:21, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Americas are also called "the western hemisphere". I have to agree that common usage among native English speakers is that "American" means a person from the United States. I say this as an American who regularly reads British publications (Economist and Nature, in particular). AdamRetchless 21:39, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

A legal definition exist. The government is called the United States "the Federal Corporation" in Title 28 Section 3002. This government is a republic and not a democracy or representative democracy. See the revision and Article IV of the Constitution. Example: No one ever voted on income tax or abortion...but it happended. These are probably the two greatest issues today. The republican form created these laws.

28 USC 3002(15) does not create a legal definition of the term "United States". That subsection simply defines the words "United States" when they are used in that particular chapter of the United States Code. This is simply a way of saving words in the remainder of that chapter of the U.S. Code. (And by the way, Congress and the legislatures of three-quarters of the states voted to legalize the income tax by adopting the Sixteenth Amendment.) Mateo SA | talk 00:44, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

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