Talk:United Order

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Contents 1 FLDS & AUB 2 Karl Marx got several ideas from the United Order or Law of Consecration? 3 A Few Points: United Order, Missionary Work, and Private Property 4 History/similarity to 19th century movements

[edit] FLDS & AUB

Don't both the FLDS (on a large scale) and the AUB (on a small scale) practice this?

Yes they do. The FLDS has a larger single community, but it seems that the AUB have more communities doing this. This needs to be followed up and added to the main United Order section, along with info about any other groups practising this. --Tobey 04:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Karl Marx got several ideas from the United Order or Law of Consecration?

I read this back in the mid 1980's, a book about the United Order (cannot recall title but it was an old thin, small (less than 8.5x11) whitish-tannish book) at the BYU library, that stated Karl Marx heard about either the United Order or the Law of Consecration in the late 1830's and incorporated several of their ideas into his works. From the jist of the book, Karl Marx got everything wrong because he took God out of the plan. If anyone knows of this book or finds it again at BYU on the shelves, Could you give us the title and quotes needed?

• The notion that the United Order somehow affected Marx and Engels is laughable. The original implementation of the United Order lasted from 1831 to 1834; the second implementation lasted from 1855 to 1858. Missionaries did not begin to serve in the United Kingdom until 1837, and even so, their activities were limited to the areas of Preston, Alston, and Bedford for many years.

  Although Engels was in England in the early 1840s managing his father's cotton factory in Manchester, it was also at this time that he began writing the 360 page treatise, "The Condition of the Working Class in England in 1844". Engels brought Marx to England in 1845 to observe the conditions of poverty. That Marx and Engels should have had any exposure to Mormon utopianism, when the Mormons themselves weren't practicing it at the time, seems highly improbable. Rcharman 03:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

As I said, Someone close to the BYU library needs to look up the book (if it is still there) and comfirm or deny my recollections. I'm too far away.

[edit] A Few Points: United Order, Missionary Work, and Private Property

A stated purpose of the united order that is not mentioned which I read recently in Doctrine and Covenants 103:58-59 is to print scripture with the purpose of missionary work and the building of the kingdom. A purpose and value is to end poverty, but a value is also to support the mission of the Church of preaching the Gospel.

Also The treasury is owned by all , but I believe once property is alloted, it belongs to the individual with regular stewardship interviews. If a person opts out of the community, the community cannot take away what they currently have, and the individual cannot take away what they donated before.

I agree with the above statement completely. Private property was not eradicated by the United Order as is incorrectly assumed. J. Rueben Clark and others have clearly taught this in the past (see link below). This article has been put together by editors who have not taken the time to intimately study the history of the United order in the Church. The editors are under the false assumption that the United Order and Communism are very similar, which theory has repeatedly been disproven in general conferences. I added the new section "The United Order versus Communism" which dispels this myth. The reference included in this section should be required reading for anyone wishing to edit this article in the future (J. Rueben Clark, Jr. on the United Order and Communism). President McKay and Benson even recommended several books on this topics just so Church members would not be confused about this issue, one of which was "The Naked Communist" written by Cleon Skousen. This topic has so much involved to it that I really believe it should have it's own article dedicated to it. I may have to be the one to get it started. But until then, to all United Order article editors, please study LDS history, the old General Conference talks, and D&C! Gaytan 16:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Reuben Clark's views were revisionist - he was looking back at past United Orders (of which there were many different types) through the lens of a Church that had relinquished consecration for capitalism. Church Historian Leonard J. Arrington is a more accurate source for the history of this doctrine and the United Orders of the last century. We must remember also that sections of the Doctrine and Covenants on this subject were changed to accommodate civil laws that had already proved an inconvenience to early attempts to live consecration. --Tobey 21:15, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm. Who defines the doctrines and teachings of the LDS Church? Historians or Apostles and prophets of the Church? I guess it really depends on whether you are an adherent of the LDS faith or not, right? I can tell you that Mormons will generally give much more weight to the statements of a prophet or apostle much moreso than that of a historian. The words of current prophets are generally considered equal or of more wieght than the LDS canon. A historian cannot speak for the Church as a whole while a prophet can. Besides, it wasn't just J. Rueben Clark who made such statements; these ideas were commonly made public by Church's general leadership of seventies, apostles, and First Presidencies, throughout much of the 20th century. Now if you are not an adherent of the Mormon faith, then this is all irrelavent to you. Gaytan 19:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The words of someone who did not live during the era they speak about or was not involved with the events they speak about can never compare to the accounts of those who were there, wrote contemporary records, and were eye witnesses. Leonard J. Arrington, who was the official LDS Church Historian, in his book "Building the City of God" quotes from contemporary faithful Latter-day Saint witnesses to the United Order, who lived in communities in which sometimes property was held by the Church or community. The records, including official Church and legal documents, exist to prove that point. Whatever value we may place in President Clark as a religious leader, he seems to be mistaken in his history on several points. Perhaps he was trying to describe what consider the ideal conditions for a United Order, but this article is primarily about the history of United Orders, not the modern views on how they should have operated. --Tobey (talk) 18:27, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History/similarity to 19th century movements

I would like to add a few lines on the concept/practice as part of the 19th Century utopian movement where several other religions and social groups established communal societies (i.e. Brook Farm). Comments or objections? WBardwin 19:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

This article is specifically tied to the LDS faith. Other religious communal societies would fit better under religious communism, Christian communism or something similar. Gaytan 19:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

already added my few words about the topic. Look it over and see if it is too much. Thanks. WBardwin 02:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)