Talk:United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians

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[edit] Disputed

This article is essentially the sole creation of a single editor. It's great to have, and is apparently written by someone personally knowledgeable about the facts in the article. For a new topic, it's quite well fleshed out.

That said, there is an obvious and strong partisan viewpoint expressed by the article. And many of the characterizations that are most inflammatory are also unaccompanied by any citational support. I think it can be improved to eliminate these issues, but it will take a little attention. But it needs a one (or twice, or thrice) over with a strong mind to NPOV concerns. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 04:36, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi Lulu, please cite the specific areas of the material you feel are inflamatory or lack sources. Also, considering my review of your editing in numerous articles, I am skeptical about your alleged NPOV abilities, but I am certainly open to be proven wrong. Also, thanks for your wonderful endorsement of my writing prowness. Thanks. Waya sahoni 01:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Despite your tendency for confrontation, Waya sahoni, placing the tag makes no claim about my own "editing abilities"... so just spare the insults. That said, it looks like another editor, interestingly named User:UKB Historic Preservation, did a pretty thorough rewrite of the whole article in a manner that seems to satisfy NPOV concerns. So I'm probably OK with taking the tag back off... but I'd like to get another editor's opinion or two. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 02:52, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
While the edits may resolve some of the NPOV controversy, they seem to have 'de-wikified' the page, there are no longer contents etc. I was almost tempted to revert it! --Vryl 04:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
You know, one thing I like about all this posturing is that in the end, I have a written archive thousands of years old to consult about these topics written in another syllabary. And most of the relevant information is published in reputable sources to confirm it. Regarding your Ward Churchill complaints I submit the following. 25 USC defines that anyone claiming to be an indian must possess a certificate degree of indian blood (CDIB) in order to be granted citizenship (not membership) in a Federally recognized tribe. Churchill was given a tribal card by the UKB when he did not possess a CDIB -- a violation of BIA regulations and United States Code. In the Churchill article, the UKB state they gave him the card in promising to perform services for them. This is bartering membership for goods and services. A violation not only of the law, but Tribal Constitutional provisions of the UKB as well. Waya sahoni 05:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
This fact about "bartering membership for goods and services" may well be true; but it needs a citation. The Churchill article is not a citation for that fact. It may touch on it in a very indirect fashion, but only in the context of a complex dispute with many differing opinions on various sides. The Churchill article certainly does not state that the events are as you describe. Moreover, Churchill's critics are themselves quite vehement in the claim that the GAA does not allow the BIA to set tribal membership rules, which contradicts your claim about "violation of US code". Again, I'm not purporting any particular fact on the matter, just stating the need for citation of claims (and please, please, please spare me a citation to anything in your private library: WP:V demands material that is verifiable by editors in general; naturally, an ISBN or other reference for a book that may exist in your library is fine, just as long as it's a public citation). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 06:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good progress

I thought you were the new message board moderator for the SCOX discussion over on the Talk:Jeffrey Vernon Merkey page? Better get back over there before you miss something insightful and important, who knows what they've done to that article snce you've been over here talking to me. :-) Waya sahoni 07:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like you really need to take a few valiums and calm down. I have no idea what you're even referring to with "SCOX discussion" and all that (nor why you think WP is a "message board", apparently), but I can tell the tone is nasty. However, I commend you on your improvements to this page. The POV tone of it has been reduced greatly, citations are getting quite good, and you've added some additional nice information. Keep up the good work here, and just leave the Merkey article alone. I almost surely would have removed the Merkey article from my watchlist already if I hadn't been keeping an eye on your disruption of it; but I suppose I probably will either way since it seems in able hands to fight off the disruption (from what I can see, you seem to have attracted a lot of them who had previously only watched the LKML article, but saw the shennanigans spilling over. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 07:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Please lets go over the Joe Byrd article next. When I post the photos of Byrd's goons beating up Cherokee Citizens and marching the Cherokee Nation Supreme Court Justices out of the Courthouse at gunpoint, you may change your views on POV in that article. Waya sahoni 08:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah... that one needs some work. I'm not claiming specifically that any of the facts you purport in it as false, they just need some citation and to be phrased in less emotional terms. I don't doubt that you have personal expreriences that make you feel strongly on the subject, but the article itself still needs to read in an encyclopedic fashion. Still, given the rapid progress of this article (thanks essentially entirely to you... I only fixed a couple minor formatting issues), I have high hopes of Joe Byrd shaping up to a good article. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 08:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title 25

"..25 USC defines that anyone claiming to be an indian must possess a certificate degree of indian blood (CDIB).."

While searching TITLE 25—INDIANS USC http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode25/ searches at "Search Title 25 of the US Code" return the following results:

"Your query cdib returned 0 results." "Your query "certificate degree of indian blood" returned 0 results."

Would you comment? Am I missing something?

Please post actual links that corroborate your assertion, not just your own statements. Thanks. talks_to_birds 05:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

25 USC 1452 is a good start. You can find the rest from there. Stop following me around the site please. Waya sahoni 06:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, at the risk of killing an unreasonable number of electrons, here's § 1452. Definitions in its entirety http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode25/usc_sec_25_00001452----000-.html:
§ 1452. Definitions
Release date: 2005-08-18        

For the purpose of this chapter, the term— 

(a) “Secretary” means the Secretary of the Interior. 

(b) “Indian” means any person who is a member of any Indian tribe, band, group,
 pueblo, or community which is recognized by the Federal Government as eligible 
for services from the Bureau of Indian Affairs and any “Native” as defined in the 
Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act [43 U.S.C. 1601 et seq.]. 

(c) “Tribe” means any Indian tribe, band, group, pueblo, or community, including 
Native villages and Native groups (including corporations organized by Kenai, 
Juneau, Sitka, and Kodiak) as defined in the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act 
[43 U.S.C. 1601 et seq.], which is recognized by the Federal Government as 
eligible for services from the Bureau of Indian Affairs. 

(d) “Reservation” includes Indian reservations, public domain Indian allotments, 
former Indian reservations in Oklahoma, and land held by incorporated Native 
groups, regional corporations, and village corporations under the provisions of 
the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act [43 U.S.C. 1601 et seq.]. 

(e) “Economic enterprise” means any Indian-owned (as defined by the Secretary of 
the Interior) commercial, industrial, or business activity established or 
organized for the purpose of profit: Provided, That such Indian ownership shall 
constitute not less than 51 per centum of the enterprise. 

(f) “Organization”, unless otherwise specified, shall be the governing body of 
any Indian tribe, as defined in subsection (c) of this section, or entity 
established or recognized by such governing body for the purpose of this chapter. 

(g) “Other organizations” means any non-Indian individual, firm, corporation, 
partnership, or association. 

(h) “Surety” has the same meaning as in section 694a of title 15. 

(i) “Surety Bond” means a bid bond, payment bond, or performance bond as those 
terms are defined in section 694a of title 15.
The only links outward go to "TITLE 43—PUBLIC LANDS § 1601. Congressional findings and declaration of policy" or to "TITLE 15—COMMERCE AND TRADE § 694a. Definitions" neither of which seems to have any relevance to the question at hand. talks_to_birds 06:45, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CDIB

"Services from the BIA" means genealogy and issuance of CDIB (cerificate degree of indian blood). Next look up tribal orgnization, and its references that only "indians" may be members. An "indian" is someone eligible for services from the BIA.

(b) “Indian” means any person who is a member of any Indian tribe, band, group, pueblo, or community which is recognized by the Federal Government as eligible for services from the Bureau of Indian Affairs and any “Native” as defined in the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act [43 U.S.C. 1601 et seq.].

(c) “Tribe” means any Indian tribe, band, group, pueblo, or community, including Native villages and Native groups (including corporations organized by Kenai, Juneau, Sitka, and Kodiak) as defined in the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act [43 U.S.C. 1601 et seq.], which is recognized by the Federal Government as eligible for services from the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Simple. Check tribal organization USC statutes about only "Indians" being members of Federally recognized "Indian" Tribes. (look them up yourself, I am not your research student). Waya sahoni 07:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Well. You yourself directly cited USC 25 as defining both "certificate of Indian blood" and "CDIB". Why did you cite USC 25 if it's not there? It seems that accurate citations can be an issue for you. Anyway, I think this horse is well an truly dead, as it is *very* obvious you're not going to post a direct answer to my direct question. talks_to_birds 07:17, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Goodnight and good luck. Thanks for the post. Waya sahoni 07:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Greetings. Good article. I do have a question,though. Are the, "certificate of blood" and "CDIB" the only definition of Indian? One of the articles that I read stated that the UKB issued Associate Memberships to those who had Cherokee ancestry but did not qualify under the two definitions above. In the 1990's, the Associate Membership was expanded to honorary ones as well. It seems the UKB from its public statements established two levels of membership. This seems in keeping with the assertion of, "self-determination" that I have come across on-line in various Native American communities. Hoosier 15:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The UKB issued "honorary" or "associate" memberships for only a few months in 1994, to people who couldn't prove the bq. There were objections by the enrolled citizens, and so these memberships were revoked about a month after Ward Churchill got one. It is not clear to me whether there really was a difference between honorary and associate. Either way, they only lasted a very short time and they no longer are in effect. The certificate of blood and CDIB are the same thing. They are required to enroll in most Indian tribes, and to receive federal services. They are not always the only criteria for membership though. This varies from tribe to tribe. The UKB requires a CDIB that proves 1/4 Cherokee ancestry.Pokey5945 04:54, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wes Studi Quote

Lulu, I have the quotes from Wes Studi in the Cherokee Phoenix (hard copy) but I note they have taken down the online versions. I am guess Wes wanted to distance himself from the controvesy. I am having trouble locating the quotes from an online source that's not pay or requires an account (they were online last year). Waya sahoni 08:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

We can cite offline sources, just as long as we're specific. So if you can type a few words of direct quote from Studi, then cite "Cherokee Phoenix, March 5, 2005, p.13" (or whatever), that's perfectly encyclopedic. Or likewise the press release that's mentioned can be cited using Template:Press release reference. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 08:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
How about I just remove the comment about Wes. If he wants to distance himself, perhaps this is the easiest to do. Removing the material does add to retract much from the rest of the article. The UKB's antics of late and lack of Gadugi for their brothers speaks for itself. Waya sahoni 08:26, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Either way. It sounds like an intersting point, but I have no knowledge of the details, or of how important they are. So I'm happy to defer to you. I'd note, however, that you don't need to panic when you see the "citation needed" superscript. It just means that we'd like someone to locate sources, not that the material must be instantly killed... it a "tickler" not a condemnation. If you leave something in with the template there, someone else who has a citation might well add it. Lots of articles have those tags in them for a good while... though the longer one is there, the more concern is raised, I think (but a few days, or even weeks, isn't anything editors get worked up over... unless the claim itself seems unlikely to be supportable, in principle). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 08:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Honorary memberships

Thanks Pokey5945 for the nice edits to the section. You added the claim that honorary memberships were granted "for several months" in 1994. The stuff I've seen just mentions when this program was discontinued in 1994, but not when it was started. Do you have a citation that indicates the specific period of granting honorary memberships? Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 17:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't have a single citation on the issue of honorary and associate memberships. The Keetowahs are a small group with limited resources, and they don't spell out every last detail of what they're doing for public consumption. It may be posible to document my assertion by stringing a number of cites together. I know that there are issues here with original research being against policy, but I thought I'd throw it up there to see what other editors thought. Since it's a fairly minor and non-controversial point, I thought it might stick.Pokey5945 20:40, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Definitely original research isn't so good. Maybe the editor User:UKB Historic Preservation can provide some citation, since she's an offical historian for the tribe. I don't think we need to take it out, in any event, but we might need to be slightly fuzzier in the language if we're not sure of the details: e.g. "a short period" is less specific that "several months", I think. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 22:40, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I think Pokey5945's edits are nice in clarifying the discussion, but the subsequent edits by Waya sahoni seem to belabor the Churchill stuff, which is already discussed in much more detail in another article. The long press release statement seems like much more than is appropriate for this article on the UKB as a whole, not just on one minor skirmish about one honorary member. I'm going to edit it to just indicate a pointer back to the quotation. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 06:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)