Talk:Union between Sweden and Norway

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Contents 1 The "How" and "Why" question 2 Duplicate - merge? 3 Treaty of Åbo 4 what a mess 5 Dissolution twice 6 Dissolution of article needed 7 Two monarchies 8 Name change

[edit] The "How" and "Why" question

This looks odd:

"How this "job" was managed contrary to the dearest wishes of the Norwegians themselves, and how, finally on 1814 November 14 Norway as a free and independent kingdom was united to Sweden under a common king, Charles XIII of Sweden."

Scott McNay 20:06, 2004 Feb 16 (UTC)

[edit] Duplicate - merge?

Is this a duplicate of Sweden-Norway? --Leifern 16:15, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)

Yes, they seem to handle the same thing mainly. I think merging any useful info in Sweden-Norway into this article and then redirecting here, plus adding a word or two about "Sweden-Norway" as an alternative name of the union in the introduction of this article, would be the best thing to do. The problem I can see with this as it is now, though, is that this article is really a part of the History of Sweden series, and the first paragraph is not even about the union. (The HOS series is pretty much a long sequential text only cut into chronological pieces for convenience.) But of course that paragraph could be transferred to the previous part, so this article could truly be about the piece of history that Sweden and Norway largely have in common, that is, it could be both a part of the HOS series and a part of the History of Norway series (whose main article now links to Sweden-Norway). -- Jao 17:22, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Treaty of Åbo

The section "Personal union with Norway" refeers to the Treaty of Åbo of 1743!

Evidently it should refer to the meeting between Alexander and Charles John in Åbo on August 30, 1812. There is no entry for this meeting. Or is there?

-- Petri Krohn 16:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] what a mess

The following 2 phrases are the least understandable I have encountered in English language wikipedia this far:

Moreover, the United Kingdom and Russia very properly insisted that Charles John's first duty was to the anti-Napoleonic coalition, the former power vigorously objecting to the expenditure of her subsidies on the nefarious Norwegian adventure before the common enemy had been crushed. Only on his very ungracious compliance did the United Kingdom also promise to countenance the union of Norway and Sweden (Treaty of Stockholm, March 3, 1813); and, on April 23, Russia gave her guarantee to the same effect.

[edit] Dissolution twice

The dissolution is included twice which seems slightly excessive. Prezen 12:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dissolution of article needed

The present article ought to be divided. Under the present headline, we need a total revision, giving a balanced and nonpartisan view of the Union, and not primarly from a Swedish point of view.

Large parts of the contents ought to be transferred to a new article in the History of Sweden series under a new name, perhaps Sweden in union with Norway.

The template History of Sweden should of course accompany the Swedish-related parts over to the new article Sweden in union with Norway.

Also, the Ïnfobox Former Country template should be deleted completely, as it is based on the false premise that the union was one single state, not a personal union of two states. The template has the "one-state-model" as a premise, which makes it difficult to adjust to the facts of this case, e.g. two capitals, two flags, two currencies, two parliaments etc. I have just removed a Swedish flag and the post-union greater coat of arms of Sweden, which are absurd in this context.

Apart from the very partisan treatment of the Union, large parts of the text are of inferior quality.

WARNING: I may soon start work on a ruthless revision of the Union between Sweden and Norway article, but I'll leave it to others to write the article taht is missing in the History of Sweden series. Roede 10:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Two monarchies

The template "Former countries" is somewhat misleading, since the union was one between two separate countries. Significant reminders of that duality is the union (and royal) coat of arms with two crowns above the escutcheon, symbolizing two kingdoms, not one; and the official name in both languages.

If the template is to be used at all, it must be modified accordingly with doubled information. Most of this is already taken care of. There were two capitals, two currencies, two constitutions, two national assemblies. (And in addition, two separate state churches, two separate legal systems, two separate armed forces, etc.) Consequently, two constitutional monarchies. To define them as one monarchy is inconsistent and misleading. I sincerely hope that these facts will be allowed to be reflected in the article, and that attempts to correct the article accordingly will not be reverted. Roede (talk) 14:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I interpret that part of the template to mean form of government as in theoretical type. I dont think that it is written in singular to reflect the number of monarhies. I am more curious to know why you insist on using the Royal coat of arms in stead of the regular one (which also has two crowns). Inge (talk) 14:55, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

If you read the template instructions you will get some more info.Inge (talk) 14:58, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

This is correct. The government_type-variable describes the type of government. Using ad hoc values disrupts the functionality of the template and places the article in a maintenance category. -- Domino theory 10:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Good morning, Inge. As I have written above, the template is tailored to suit former countries, and therefore does not suit the Union, which is not a former country. Because the constitutional status of the Union is not so well known internationally, many contributors to the article take it to have been a closer union, i.e. a state. To counteract that misconception, I have tried to elaborate on the template by informing readers that there were two capitals and two governments, with only the king and the foreign service in common.

Your question about the coat of arms is an easy one to answer. I have contributed both versions to the article, but I prefer the more elaborate version because it is the design that seems always to have been used officially. Contrary to what you think, the "full achievement" with pavilion and supporters is the "regular" one, while the other one is an artistic rendering of the escutcheon alone, not an official design. And this full achievement is not solely the royal coat of arms, but also the one and only Union arms. It was not often used in Norway, but you will find it on the frontispiece of every volume of Skillingsmagazinet between 1846 and 1885. It was better known abroad, since it was used by our foreign service. The coat or arms that you refer to as "regular" is scanned by me from the frontispiece of the illustrated publication "Oscarshal", celebrating the completion of that edifice. Inside it and on the various garden pavilions you will also find other versions of the union arms. Roede (talk) 08:52, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Former countries deals with all historic geopolitical entities, not merely singular countries or individual sovereign states. This includes entities such as empires, federations, confederations and unions of various types, which has as a distinguishing feature that it includes more than one country.

This article is listed on the History of Sweden-series, with the role of describing the historical period of the union in Sweden. Yet there seems to be no corresponding article for Norway, even though this talk page has been tagged by the Norwegian history project. Nor is there an article on the union itself, rather than as a period of national history. The solution is not to keep adding information to the infobox, which was never intended to be there. The solution is to have a proper article about the union, where the infobox includes information common to the union, not crammed with enumeration of properties regarding its component countries. There should also be a separate article for Norway as an autonomous part of the union, and the infobox of that article should contain information specific to Norway and its status within the union. -- Domino theory 10:12, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name change

The article title has been stable for a long time now so it seemed like it had a good name. It is not easy to find a good name for this phenomenon (espeshially on en:) as this union will most of the time be compared to or viewed in the same light as the UK one. This is not correct. The union in question was not a union of two states into one. It was a union between two states and remained so for its duration. I believe the name Union between Sweden and Norway is more fitting. Inge (talk) 15:31, 22 May 2008 (UTC)