Talk:Underbelly (TV series)

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Date: 05:44, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
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Contents

[edit] Victoria

Not showing in Victoria anymore, the judge ruled it to be harmful to the Lewis Moran murder trial. Front page of today's mX newspaper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.165.134 (talk) 05:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

But it would be airing at 8:30 in say, Sydney? Be interesting to see if this one makes the torrents. Comradeash (talk) 08:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Yep, it's made the torrents already - download it and see it anyway! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.184.75.223 (talk) 22:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
"But the suppression order was issued in Geelong, surely it doesn't apply to civilized society!" 211.28.220.254 (talk) 22:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Help

Could someone please write up about how episodes 4 to 9 have been leaked onto the internet. Here are some links:

http://www.livenews.com.au/Articles/2008/02/28/Underbelly_episodes_leaked_onto_internet

http://www.news.com.au/technology/story/0,25642,23285426-5014239,00.html

Clofts (talk) 21:51, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Done! Hope it helps. Corn.u.co.pia Discussion 11:13, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Cool.. thank you :) Clofts (talk) 02:44, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Illegal distribution

There are two separate sections with this title in the article. They should be consolidated into one. --AussieLegend (talk) 12:52, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I tried talking to the other user who contributed the info, but he/she didn't reply. Most of it is the same, though the info I added has a source, courtesy of one of the above users. So yeah, we should merge them. Corn.u.co.pia Discussion 13:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, so before you attack my editing, I wanted to let you know I edited badly on purpose. Now it will be much easier to merge, though some of the info has no sources. Corn.u.co.pia Discussion 13:10, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Done. Corn.u.co.pia Discussion 03:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Link to Star Wars?

I don't know if anyone noticed it, but in Episode 6 where Benji met Lola, the casino band is playing an instrumental version of Star War's Imperial March. The only time I have seen something like that is when a skill tester machine started playing the Cantina Music by Figrid Dan and the Modal Nodes. >.< Geekiness pops up everywhere... --59.167.104.158 (talk) 12:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] La Porchella / La Porchetta

I changed the reference to La Porchetta to La Porchella; I assume the reference is supposed to be to the restaurant on Rathdowne Street where Veniamin was shot, which was La Porchella (and not part of the popular La Porchetta chain). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cinephobia (talk • contribs) 07:06, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I changed it back. The ref says La Porchetta, so I'll just go with that. Sorry. Corn.u.co.pia ♥ Disc.us.sion 03:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cast details

I added full details of the rest of the cast, with the edit reverted by Bidgee. I realise these actors are not part of channel 9's specified main cast, but several of them are very notable actors in their own right. I see no reason why Kym Gyngell, Madeleine West and Alex Dimitriades - amongst others - should not be included in the cast details. In addition some of the characters play a fairly significant role in the Underbelly series and this is another reason for their inclusion. If your issue is with a lack of citations I do not believe this is a reason for deletion, as the citations can easily be sourced and added at a later date. Ashman05 (talk) 06:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Well you could add a supporting cast subheading, and put the info there; but we really need citations. Corn.u.co.pia Discussion 06:05, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
and lets have the list of the production team as well? There needs to be a limit on what can be added. Maybe they can be added within the article but not as a list. What makes them (Kym Gyngell, Madeleine West and Alex Dimitriades) notable? Most people other then those who watched programs that were on other programs may know them and also unsourced. Also what makes you think that they play "significant" roles?. Bidgee (talk) 06:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
There's an entire episode that virtually revolves around Dimitriades' character. Plus he kills at least four people, so I'd say he's a fairly significant character. --BrianFG (talk) 06:29, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Well I agree that the characters should be added, but not in the table and with citations. Corn.u.co.pia Discussion 07:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
As BrianFG said, Dimitriades' character is central to a lot of the story including one episode where he is the primary character. I would argue that the only reason he isn't in channel 9's list is because of the Supreme Court ruling about his character's name. He has played more of a role than several 'main characters'. Ashman05 (talk) 08:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
1 episode out of 13 doesn't mean it's notable and if he isn't on Nine's list doesn't mean it's due to the 'Supreme Court ruling'. Sources are needed to prove this not point of views! Bidgee (talk) 08:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
That cast list on Nine's site is an odd one, especially as it has Lliam Amor listed as part of the "main cast" even though he's in it for five minutes and Madeleine West isn't even listed even though she gets as much screen time as Simon Westaway. Also, Kevin Harrington isn't included. Surely his character (Lewis Moran) was notable! Now the DVD is out, is there a better source of a "Main Cast" list? --BrianFG (talk) 03:05, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I just redid the cast list using the listing on Australian Television Information Archive as the one on the "official site" is clearly incomplete. As I noted above, Harrington isn't even listed there and I've since discovered that Robert Mammone as Tony Mokbel wasn't there either. The ATIA listing is more complete so I've used that as the basis for the list here. --BrianFG (talk) 21:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Season 2

Are you sure there is going to be a season two. I know that they said it on the logies but are you sure that was not just a joke. Trimy67 (talk) 02:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I found an appropriate reference. Corn.u.co.pia ♥ Disc.us.sion 07:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cast picture

I think this page needs a cast picture. I would gladly add one, but there are quite a few, and I don't know which one to add. Any suggestions? Corn.u.co.pia ♥ Disc.us.sion 07:16, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Episode list

The discussion page on the episode list page is blocked so I'll mention this here. Has there been any suggestions or attempts to expand the plot summaries for each ep? The ones that are there are perfunctory at best and some of them aren't even correct. I'd do it but I don't want to waste my time if it's going to be reverted or deleted. --BrianFG (talk) 02:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Please do it. I haven't seen the series, and I can promise I won't revert them. I have edited the page and have made it look nicer, but what it really needs is new summaries. Please go ahead. Corn.u.co.pia ♥ Disc.us.sion 03:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
OK, I've rewritten all the summaries to give a better overview of each episode and to also make them different than the "cut-and-paste from the official site" look they had before. I'm sure there's some scope for additional info there, but I've made a start. --BrianFG (talk) 21:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Production

Okay, we really need citations for the production section. I have looked, but I can't find any. Please people, have a look and see if you can find some. Thanks - Corn.u.co.pia ♥ Disc.us.sion 03:20, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Brincat and Faure as mr t and mr l

People seem to have a big problem with mentioning that mr t is Victor Brincat and mr l is Keith Faure of "keithy george" Chopper fame. There is no question as to those being the persons that the characters represent. That is a neutral point of view on the matter. However there is a court order which prevents nine from expressedly stating their names as such because they of ongoing legal proceedings and Brincat being in prison protection because he acted as a witness against Carl Williams, the fatboy. That is the only reason that channel 9 have not stated exactly who they are. No while I think it is neutral point of view to state that channel 9 has not stated exactly who they are, I also think that the glaringly obvious, that those characters are recorded as committing crimes that Victor Brincat has been convicted with and Keith Faure has been prosecuted for and convicted for one and is in the process of being prosecuted for the other, unless wikipedia itself feels compelled to abide by an Australian court order.

--Nonaustraliancontributor3 (talk) 07:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:No original research. What you suggest above amounts to original research. Unless a reliable source publishes the identities of those concerned, we should not conclude anything. Wikipedia abiding by an Australian court order has very little to do with it. -- Longhair\talk 07:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Can you stop adding unsourced content. Your opinion on what you have seen and the profile is not a source and the site cited failes to stay Mr L and T names and doesn't even say anything about Underbelly therefore it can be removed until such time there is a reliable source which states who Mr L and T are and ATM we can only guess until a reliable source(s) is found. Bidgee (talk) 11:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Firstly Melbourne crime is a reliable resource. You will actually notice that most of the writing at the site is directly from Age articles. You will note that Mr T commits in underbelly the tv series the same crimes that Victor Brincat was convicted of. Have you seen underbelly? Read through the article. So when the show is "based on real events", it is a disservice to the wikipedia reader not to tell them who was actually convicted of the real events even if we validate that statement by saying that channel 9 does not state that mr t is Victor Brincat.
It isn't reliable and it also fails to sate it's sources and again the site fails to state who Mr T and L are and also doesn't state underbelly. Bidgee (talk) 12:58, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
As for it being my opinion on what I have seen, I hold absolutely no opinion on the guilt or innocence of Victor Brincat or anyone else. It is just solid fact that he has been convicted of the crimes committed by mr l in underbelly so that ought to be stated in the article. Mr T murdered Jason Moran in underbelly episode 9, in real life Victor Brincat was convicted of murdering Jason Moran. In [Leadbelly], which was the basis for underbelly, it states it bluntly.
Well thats your point of view and not from a reliable source. 12:58, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough there is no source that directly states that Mr T is Victor Brincat, but it is a disservice to readers not to mention the persons who are convicted of committing the crimes that are committed by Mr T in the underbelly show. My edit[1] did not say that Victor Brincat is Mr T, only that Victor Brincat is convicted of the crimes depicted by the mr t character in underbelly. This is not original research, POV etc. it is cold hard fact. I think that you need to read the pages linked more carefully. --Nonaustraliancontributor3 (talk) 19:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Unsourced content doesn't belong on Wikipedia. (See Wikipedia:No original research) Bidgee (talk) 12:58, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Reading through your comments, I do not really understand your arguments. Are you denying that there is reliable sources for Keith Faure and Victor Brincat being convicted of the crimes? Are you denying that in underbelly mr t and mr l are not depicted committing the same crimes that Keith Faure and Victor Brincat did? Or do you think that stating those that are actually convicted of the crimes that mr l and mr t are depicted as committing is outside the scope of the article? Please explain. --Nonaustraliancontributor3 (talk) 19:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry Keith faure is the veteran maggot from episode 12. Mr L is the dude driving the car. --Nonaustraliancontributor3 (talk) 19:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I've reverted Mr T "The Running Man"/Although Victor Brincat was reported to have been convicted of the crimes attributed to Mr T in real life, there is no certainty that Mr T is Victor Brincat. [2] since the source failes to state who Mr T is and is a POV. Bidgee (talk) 12:58, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

From the source, "Brincat, 43, of Southbank, and Thomas Hentschell, 41 of Cheltenham, were charged over the murder of Michael Marshall (left) on October 25, 2003.
Police said Marshall, a drug dealer, hotdog salesman and former kickboxer, was standing outside the house in Joy Street when he was fired upon about 6.30pm."
This scene where Michael Marshall is murdered is depicted in underbelly episode 10 where mr l and mr t drive a white van. Michael Marshall is mentioned by name.
"In August 2004, Carl Williams and associates Victor Brincat and Alfonso Traglia were charged with the murder of Jason Moran....
A week later, on June 21, 2003, Williams' co-accused Victor Brincat allegedly shot Moran and Pasquale Barbaro as the pair sat in a van with 10 children after attending an Auskick football clinic at the Cross Keys Reserve on Pascoe Vale Road, Essendon North."
This scene is depicted in underbelly episode 9. As you can see, the sources are adequate for the comment: Although Victor Brincat was reported to have been convicted of the crimes attributed to Mr T in real life, there is no certainty that Mr T is Victor Brincat. There is no POV in that comment based on that source. --Nonaustraliancontributor3 (talk) 13:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
No it's not. It's your opinion of Ep 9 of Underbelly as the source does not state anything with "Although Victor Brincat was reported to have been convicted of the crimes attributed to Mr T in real life, there is no certainty that Mr T is Victor Brincat." and also reads like a POV. Also we must not forget that Underbelly is also a drama based on (not a doco but a drama) Gangland War and in the credits it just states Mr T and Mr L. Bidgee (talk) 14:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
From the source:"In his opening, prosecutor Geoff Horgan, SC, said Williams ordered the murders of Jason Moran and Marshall but Barbaro was an unfortunate victim, in "the wrong place at the wrong time".
Mr Horgan said Brincat drove to a nearby street and was picked up by Mr X, who then dropped him off near the park filled with children.
He said Brincat, carrying a sawn-off shotgun and hand gun, walked up to the van and shot the two men dead."
That is what was depicted in episode 9, not my opinion of it. Everything apart from the fact that the character that did it was mr T, aka the running man. There is no POV about the fact the Brincat was convicted of committing the crimes in real life that Mr T did in the dramatisation based on real events. Is there some form of arbitration for this as I feel like I am hitting my head against a brick wall. Otherwise could you do me the courtesy of explaining in more detail what you mean when you say my opinion of underbelly episode 9 is pov. As far as I know, I have not given an opinion on underbelly episode 9, just stated its content. --Nonaustraliancontributor3 (talk) 15:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Can we please remember that this article is about the TV series Underbelly and not the Melbourne gangland killings. The characters Dimiatriades, Bliss and Gyngell played may be based on real criminals, but in the series they aren't named, so whether we can prove they might be Brincat, Faure and others, in the context of the TV show they are only referred to by letters or are unnamed. The cast list represents the names of characters in the show, not what we think their real names might be. --BrianFG (talk) 13:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
You seem to think that naming those convicted of the crimes is outside the scope of the article. I disagree. Because the show is "based on real events", I feel that it is worth mentioning who was actually convicted of the crimes that a character committed. Remember, I am not stating that mr t is Victor Brincat, I am only stating that Brincat was convicted of the crimes that mr T committed in the show. --Nonaustraliancontributor3 (talk) 13:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
There may well be room for discussion about who is alleged to have committed what crime, but that room is not in the cast list table, which is where you keep adding this information about Brincat and Faure. The cast list table is for listing the names of the cast, and the roles they play. If you want to talk about who Brincat and Faure are, maybe start a new section that compares the events in the show with the actual events of the Melbourne gangland killings and talk about them there. Stop adding it to the cast list, because in that context it's irrelevant.--BrianFG (talk) 05:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

How the cast page is now is how it should be. There is no reference to the characters BEING these real life people, but with some of them saying 'representative of...' and 'based on...', readers can easily conclude that elements of their life and crime have been used in creating the characters. 124.190.198.2 (talk)

Sorry but it's based on your opinion (See: WP:NPOV) and original research (See Wikipedia:No original research). The source isn't reliable for the list also as it doesn't state anything about underbelly or the actors and who they acted as. Bidgee (talk) 14:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

You know I'm really surprised nobody has mentioned the piss poor characterisation of Troy Mercanti in Luv u 4eva121.45.158.208 (talk) 03:41, 12 June 2008 (UTC)