User talk:Uncle G/Proposal to expand WP:CSD/Unsourced biographies

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This should prod you into thinking along new lines. Uncle G 02:35, 2005 Jun 22 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Rationale

It is clearly desired by many editors to delete personal vanity articles, in particular the "student writing about xyrself/xyr friends/xyr loved ones just to get an article about xem into the encyclopaedia". However, it is unlikely that a suitable test can be contrived in order that just 2 editors can reliably determine what articles are vanity articles or articles about non-notable people. Therefore, it seems worthwhile to approach the problem from a different angle.

One factor that the persons that are the subjects of such articles have in common is that no-one else will have written about them, and that such articles will be unable to cite any sources for their content. Enforcing the guideline about citing sources as if it were a policy, for a particular class of biographical articles, thus approximates the desired effect (although it does not catch all of the articles where a unanimous consensus to delete arises — see the empirical data) without need for administrators to make subjective judgements about importance.

Articles that this criterion will allow to be speedily deleted:

  • At 19 John Doe was the first man to walk on Mars. At 20 he invented the cure for cancer. He's currently studying at university.
  • William D. Baker invented an egg-dropping device in a series of experiments with his friend Ryan.

Articles to which this criterion will not apply:

  • At 22, Jane Doe won the state tennis championship. External links: pointer to news report — cites a source
  • Britney Spears is 24 years old and sings. External links: official web site — cites a source
  • Maria Sharapova plays tennis. The Times had an article about her on 2005-06-11. — cites a source
  • Jim Beam, born 1953, is an assistant professor of media studies. — person is over 25 now
  • Ronald Reagan was elected in 1966. — it can be deduced that the person is over 25 now by the minimum age xe that could have been in 1966

[edit] Empirical data

[edit] Summary

  • 183 biographical articles in total
    • 94 articles would have qualified for speedy deletion under this criterion
      • 0 of which reached a "keep" consensus at VFD
      • 0 of which reached a "merge" consensus at VFD
      • 1 of which reached a "redirect" consensus (i.e. content to be discarded) at VFD
      • 86 of which reached a "delete" consensus at VFD
        • 80 of which were unanimous
      • 9 of which reached no consensus at VFD (and thus defaulted to keep)
        • 4 of which lacked any "keep" votes (and any "delete" votes other than the nominator, but were deleted anyway)
    • 89 articles would not have qualified for speedy deletion under this criterion
      • 55 of which reached a unanimous "delete" consensus at VFD
      • 19 of which reached a "keep" consensus at VFD

Thus 80 of the 135 unanimous deletes, 59%, would have qualified for speedy deletion under this criterion.

[edit] Methodology

The criterion was applied at its narrowest and most mechanical. Any external hyperlink qualified as "citing a source", as did all ISBN references. Similarly, where articles gave no date of death, the subject was assumed to be still alive.

[edit] Detail

In the following tables:

  • true positives — articles where this criterion would have resulted in a speedy deletion where so far the actual VFD discussion has a consensus to delete, too, and thus the goal of reducing VFD load would have been met
  • interesting negatives — articles that wouldn't qualify for speedy deletion under this criterion where the actual VFD discussion has a "no consensus" or "keep" decision so far
  • false positives — articles where this criterion would have resulted in a speedy deletion where the actual VFD discussion has a "no consensus" or "keep" decision so far

[edit] 2005-06-20

How this would apply to biographical articles currently listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Log/2005 June 20
Discussion Apparent consensus so far Speedy deletable by proposed criterion
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jack Westerman Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Richard Monroe Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Doghouse Comics (John Flanagan) Unanimous delete (keep votes are for other articles) Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Doghouse Comics (Cloud109) Unanimous delete (keep votes are for other articles) Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Ziauddin Khan Unanimous delete (1 abstention) No, subject would definitely be older than 25 by now
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Chan Parker None (5:4 Delete:Redirect) Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given (and is 1 sentence, 12 words, long)
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/A.S. Williams Userfy No, subject is 28
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Laura Cottingham Keep No, subject is 42
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Joe Gould None (5:7:1 Delete:Keep:Merge) Yes, article cited no sources and gave no age at the time of nomination (and was 1 sentence, 9 words, long)
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Lauren Brown Keep No, subject was 79 at the time of death
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Vivienne Dick Keep No, subject is at least 30 (having been alive in the 1970s)
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Ryan Lackey Keep No, article cites sources and subject is 26
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Steve Poltz Keep No, no age is given but article cites sources (an external link to an official web site)
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Hector leano Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Asela Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Rowan Cole Delete Yes, article cited no sources at the time of nomination and subject is 17
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/William P. Kephart Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject was 27 at the time of death
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Dale Velzy Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject was 78 at the time of death
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Nick Bedbury Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 16
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jonathan Elliott Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/S. Dhanabalan Keep No, article gives no age but cited one source at the time of nomination
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Doctor cowie Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is 40
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Neil Antin Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject must have been at least 18 in 1985
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Alfonso R. Quiroz Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is 34
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Bob Burns Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is at least 46
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jane Barton None (4:3 Keep:Delete) Yes, article cited no sources and gave no age for the subject at the time of nomination (although it might be argued that it can be deduced from the fact that this person is a postdoctoral fellow that xe is over 25, and that therefore this would actually be a "No")

[edit] 2005-06-21

How this would apply to biographical articles currently listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Log/2005 June 21
Discussion Apparent consensus so far Speedy deletable by proposed criterion
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Pakash M Apte Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject must be at least 49
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Michael Buonauro Delete (10:3:2 Delete:Keep:Merge) No, article cites sources (news articles)
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/João Cruz None (1 Delete) Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Artur None (1 Delete) Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Abreu None (1 Delete) Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Pimentel None (1 Delete) Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Nicholas Bachynsky Keep No, article cited no sources at the time of nomination but subject was 82 at time of death
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Peter Wagner (Manitoba politician) Keep No, article cited no sources at the time of nomination but subject was 79 at time of death
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Andres brender Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 22
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Warren Smith Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Kareem Allam Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is 26
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Bert Smith Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Bob Burns (from Cindy Costa) Delete No, article cites no sources but the subject is at least 26 years old
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Karl Scherer Keep (6:2:1 Keep:Delete:Userfy) No, article cites no sources but subject is 53
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Mark Kenneth Matthews Delete (7:2) Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Andrew Johnson (columnist) Delete (7:2) Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given. Note that this article would fail a "does not assert notability" speedy deletion criterion.
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Anita Snow Delete (7:2) Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given. Note that this article would fail a "does not assert notability" speedy deletion criterion.
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Charles Odum Delete (7:2) Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given.
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Dan Freeman Unanimous delete No, article article cites sources and subject is 60
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Ralph charles donaldson-hudson Unanimous delete (as genealogy, not vanity) No, article cites no sources but subject was 67 at the time of death
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Eric Elfman Keep No, article gives no age but cites a source
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Takeshi Nemoto Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given.
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Adam Vanderwielen Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject was in his 20s in the 1990s so must be over 25 now
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jordan Masterson None (1:4:4 Keep:Delete:Redirect) Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given (and is 1 sentence, 11 words, long)
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Blair Lazar Unanimous delete (2) Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Wing Yee Unanimous delete No, article cites a source and subject must be at least 27
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/John Spies Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Matt Courson Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 23
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Robin Sharp Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 19

[edit] 2005-06-22

How this would apply to biographical articles currently listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Log/2005 June 22
Discussion Apparent consensus so far Speedy deletable by proposed criterion
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Cooper Sanborn Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 19
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Pilotstars (Graham Cooke) Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Pilotstars (Eoin Gibson) Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Le Bert Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 20
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Fernando arturo effio solis Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 21
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Matthew harding Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is 31
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Ramesh balsekar Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Vincent Hermany Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jiang Boshen Unanimous speedy delete Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Dion Gee Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 16
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Tim Smith Delete (9:1) No, article gives no age but cites a source
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Barney spiro Unanimous delete (as hoax, not vanity) No, article cites no sources but subject is 26
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Darren Wogman Unanimous delete (as hoax, not vanity) No, article cites no sources but subject is 47
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Karol Kozeluh Keep No, article cites no sources but subject was at least 16 in the 1930s so must be over 25 now
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Captain Riot Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is "in his forties"
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Michael Wadkins Delete (4:1 Delete:Merge) No, article cites no sources but subject was already in the Air Force in 1998 and so must be over 25 now
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Aaron Schlosser Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Kurt taillon Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and no age is given
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Harold Bernstein Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject was 78 at the time of death
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Andreas 'bds' Thorstensson Keep (3:2) No, article gives no age but cites a source
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Louis Farhad Unanimous delete (as hoax, not vanity) No, article cites no sources but (claims that) subject was alive in 1917
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Danny Fratina Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Michal Golos None (3:2 Delete:Keep) No, article cites no sources but subject is 58
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Rossman Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jesse peacock Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Judith Alice Clark Keep (2:1) No, article cites no sources but subject was imprisoned in 1981 so must be over 25 now
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Christopher Merchant Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age

[edit] 2005-06-23

How this would apply to biographical articles currently listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Log/2005 June 23
Discussion Apparent consensus so far Speedy deletable by proposed criterion
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Paul Stojanovich Keep No, article cites no sources but subject was 47 at the time of death
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Brendan Farr-Gaynor Unanimous delete, userfied by author No, subject is 22 but article cites sources
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jim Luckman Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Paul Stojanovich Unanimous delete No, article cites sources and subject is 54
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/John Kowal Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 18
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Ted Kowalsky Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is 27
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jane L. Stafford None No, article gives no age but cites a source
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Basil White Unanimous delete No, article gives no age but cites a source
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Bill Kelly Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Paul JJ Payack None (2:2:1 Delete:Userfy:Keep) No, article cites no sources but subject is 55
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Dr Ong Teck Chin None (8:6 Delete:Keep) No, article cites no sources but the subject became a school principal in 1994 so must be over 25 now
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Ashley Penney Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 24
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Betty Ann Frazer Merge No, article cites no sources but the subject has been married for "two decades" so must be over 25 now
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/David Sankidze Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jill Pike Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Sam Arksey Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Dominic Kesterton Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Dan Ashurst Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Ben Leard Unanimous delete No, article gives no age but cites a source
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Regis Masset Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject was alive in 1968 so must be over 25 mow
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Trevor ENS Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 24
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Danny Hudson Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 15
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Flick Shagwell None (5:3 Keep:Delete) No, article cites no sources but subject is 26
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Edwin Lee Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Chad Muller Unanimous delete No, article cites sources and subject is 44

[edit] 2005-06-24

How this would apply to biographical articles currently listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Log/2005 June 24
Discussion Apparent consensus so far Speedy deletable by proposed criterion
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Dennis Camé Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jessica Livingston Copyvio Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Marc El Duccio Shanon Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 20
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jeff Tunnell None (1:1:1 Keep:Merge:Delete) Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Nassar Delete (would be unanimous except for one mis-spelling redirect vote) Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/John Paul (musician) Unanimous delete (as hoax, not vanity) Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 20
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Doug Esler Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age (teachers can be 25 or under)
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jonathan Ng Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Tan Ding Xiang Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 23
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Andrew Stephen Lee Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 16
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Ferdino Logie Santiago Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 15
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Burkay Cetinkaya Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 15
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Dylan Ricci None No, article gives no age but cites a source
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Eddie lenton Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jo Logan Unanimous delete (as hoax, not vanity) No, article cites sources and subject was 41 at time of death
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Thuruthel Delete (would be unanimous but for 1 userfy) No, article gives no age but cites sources (This is an article about a family, not about a specific person.)
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Andrew S. Blake None (5:3 Keep:Delete) No, article cites no sources but subject was travelling in 1981 so must be over 25 now
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Matthew Kalamidas Delete (3:1 Delete:Keep) No, article gives no age but cites a source
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jelle Kool Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Rabbi eliyahu feinstein Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources and gives no age but the subject was alive in pre-war Europe and so must be over 25 now
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Edwin Bryant Delete (2:1 Delete:Keep) No, article cites sources and subject graduated from university in 1997 so must be over 25 now
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Tom Chiu (statistician)2 Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Marc Parrish Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is 41
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Erick Ahlstedt Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is 29
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Candi Kubeck Keep (6:2 Keep:Delete) No, article cites no sources but subject is 44
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Pinar yapici Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 17
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Kelechava Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 16
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Nick Colgan Keep (10:2 Keep:Delete) No, article cites no sources but subject is 31
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Morf borenson Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Dr. Patricia Whitely Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is 47
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Christopher Culver Unanimous delete No, article gives no age but cites sources
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Maria Angelova None (2:2 Keep:Delete) No, article cites no sources but subject was 74 at the time of death
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Martin Minich Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is 28
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Hanshar Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 23
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Daryl F. Mallett Delete (4:2 Delete:Keep) No, article cites a source and subject is 36

[edit] 2005-06-25

How this would apply to biographical articles currently listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Log/2005 June 25
Discussion Apparent consensus so far Speedy deletable by proposed criterion
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Father Armeni Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Mark Daniel Hakes Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 16
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jeff Jack Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is 33
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Holosoth Unanimous delete No, article gives no age but cites a source
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Michael Singleton Unanimous delete No, subject is 19 but article cites sources
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Dennis Ng Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject received an MS in 1982 so must be over 25 now
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Maureen Faibish None (2:4 Keep:Impossible) No, article gives no age but cites a source (a newspaper interview)
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Thomas Vaughan (poet) Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject was 74 at time of death
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Sean Robins Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is 47
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Harmisajedi Userfy No, article gives no age but cites a source
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Edgar Aranda Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is 57
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Naresh Verlander Unanimous delete No, article gives no age but cites a source
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Luke Taylor Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 18
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Julia DeMato None (1:1:2 Weak Keep:Merge:Delete) No, article cites no sources but subject is 26
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Pamela Slaney Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 21
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Alexis Lieberman Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject graduated from university in 1993 so must be over 25 now
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/MrDungX Unanimous delete No, article gives no age but cites sources
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jacob eapen Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 23
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jeremy Nuger Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 21
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Krishek Delete (4:2 Delete:Keep) No, article gives no age but cites a source (ISBN book reference)
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/David Seivwright Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 16
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jerry Giorgio Delete (4:2 Delete:Keep) Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Andrew Kendall Unanimous delete No, article gives no age but cites sources
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/B.J. Barner Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Parker wilson Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no calculable age ("20 years old during the battle of naboo" — The battle is fictional. Some editors have concluded that this is a real person writing a hoax vanity biography.)
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Michael Hristakopoulos Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 15

[edit] 2005-06-26

How this would apply to biographical articles currently listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Log/2005 June 26
Discussion Apparent consensus so far Speedy deletable by proposed criterion
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Neil johnson Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is 51
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Clay Cook Unanimous delete (2 Userfy, but user page is not redlinked) No, article gives no age but cites sources
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Rachel Cook Unanimous delete (2 Userfy, but user page is not redlinked) Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Brian Schwartz Unanimous delete No, article gives no age but cites sources (on-line interviews)
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Yosef Sutrisna Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 18
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Tommy Peake Delete (2:1 Delete:Userfy) Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 21
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Richard Frischmann Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Adam Kurimski Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 15
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Wela , Elisabeth Wierzbicka Unanimous delete No, article gives no age but cites sources
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Kristinagavrilovic Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 19
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Joshua Spink Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 16
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Ravi Handa Unanimous delete No, subject is 21 but article cites sources
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Drake Clark Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 20
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Alister Gould Unanimous delete (as error or hoax, not vanity) No, article cites no sources but subject was 75 at time of death
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Samuel Knight Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 19
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Peter Rojas Delete (5:1 Delete:Weak Keep) Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Matthew Francis Coldrick Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is 41
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Chak Estable Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 13
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Marcus dakers Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Tamim Al Jundi Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is 72
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Louis Felton Brothers Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject was 74 at time of death
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Elbert Bell Brothers Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject was 49 at time of death
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Chris Evins (Segway General Manager Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and subject is 24
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Lee Latchford Evans Unanimous delete No, article cites no sources but subject is 30
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/InterNutter Unanimous delete Yes, article cites no sources and gives no age

[edit] Discussion

  • In theory, I like this idea, Uncle G, but wouldn't it just encourage vanity purveyors to lie about their age, or just not mention an age or birthdate at all, while implying an age over 25, to get around the "age is not given and it cannot be inferred from the article that the subject is over 25" stipulation? AиDя01DTALKEMAIL 00:08, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)
    • I think it wouldn't. The personal vanity articles that many editors wish to see made speedy deletable are generally not hoaxes, as an article with a false age would be, and the people who write them are not trying to game the system. Rather, more often than not it appears that they are trying to use Wikipedia as a quick and easy substitute for having web sites of their own, for their biographies and autobiographies. The simpler way to game the criterion, of course, is to do exactly that, and then cite the web page as a source. However, the end result of that is that the burden of VFD is made simpler, because people have to perform less searching for sources on the subject (a source having been pre-supplied), and (if the article is discussed and kept) the article ends up citing a source. If people game the criterion that way, the encyclopaedia actually wins. Uncle G 17:01, 2005 Jun 24 (UTC)
  • I like this proposal, as it does what I had thought important: it targets the obvious vanity by some means other than vanity. This is important, because, of all the areas where we speedy delete, it's the one area where people have actually made mistakes. The austistic boy who features in Robert Wilson operas (Christopher Knowles), had a tiny article once, and it went to VfD. Well, Google was no help, and people thought it was a vanity article, since it claimed to be about someone who set the poetry world on its ear. I recognized the guy's name and was able to buff up the article and save it. I don't blame the voters: avant garde artists won't be attested by Google, and even a weak article on them will look like the general vanity article. Strength of claims and lack of Google results really can't guide us inerrantly. Generally, the folks who write the obvious vanity articles don't read our guidelines (or they'd know the policy against autobiography), so I don't think they'd get wise to this speedy criterion (Android's concerns), but I have a big problem with references to websites being validation. The most noxious vanity articles do link (as they're page rank boosters) to blogs or geocities vanity efforts or forums, and I'd hate to think the double vanity of writing about yourself and then linking to yourself isn't going to save one of these articles. Perhaps direct address, incomplete naming, and impossible claims should be part? No. I know that doesn't work any better. This proposal is a step in the right direction, though. Perhaps it would be better phrased as "any source not by the subject that confirms?" That way, we kick out the geocities links but keep a reference to even a weak 3rd party article. Geogre 01:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • people thought it was a vanity article — However, they wouldn't have thought it to be an "unsourced biography" (the not-strictly-accurate-but-short name that I have tentatively coined for this criterion to stress that it is not a "vanity" criterion). Christopher Knowles would have not qualified for speedy deletion by this criterion, on "if he was 19 in 1973, he must be older than 25 now" grounds. SimonP brought up a similar example of Pierre Maury. That, too, would not have qualified for speedy deletion by this criterion, on "1324 - 1282 > 25" grounds. I have a big problem with references to websites being validation — I don't think that it is the problem that you think it to be:
      • As above, the encyclopaedia wins (with easier VFD discussions and better end-result articles) if sources are cited, even if those sources are also autobiographical.
      • The data aready garnered indicate that it isn't a problem. I've applied the criterion at its most narrow and restrictive — any citation whatever, regardless of what it is citing or how, disqualifies an article for speedy deletion — for the purposes of this study, and yet the study shows (so far) that 75% (53 out of 70) of personal vanity articles that garner a unanimous consensus to delete would be speedily deleted under this criterion.
      • At the moment, editors would not be required to actually consult the cited sources to determine whether the article qualifies for speedy deletion according to the criterion, as they would be required to do if the criterion incorporated restrictions on the author of the source. Rather the rule is simple: Citing a source of any sort means that the criterion is not met and normal deletion (or another speedy deletion criterion) must be employed. I think that it is best to not complicate the decision tree for the criterion, by requiring editors to look at what the sources actually are, unless a need is demonstrated. Given the 75% hit rate, I don't think that it yet has been.
    • Also note that eliminating the citation of "sources by the subject" would have caused false positives for Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Dylan Ricci (no consensus) and Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Eric Elfman (unanimous keep), both of which linked to their respective subjects' own web sites. Uncle G 17:46, 2005 Jun 24 (UTC)
  • I like this a lot. I interpret the criteria for speedy deletion pretty strictly, so when I'm trawling speedy candidates I end up adding a lot to VfD even though they're clearly just autobios/friend-bios of young people who haven't accomplished anything of note and will be deleted. Better to have a clear criterion that avoids the hassle. Gwalla | Talk 05:00, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • I like it. It would get those unfunny "joke" bios/autobios all right, that don't strictly qualify for speedy (excepting the very short ones) but probably get speedied a lot anyway. (No, I don't, but I'd sure like to.) They never have any sources. Bishonen | talk 08:53, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • In general I agree with these criteria. However, in the examples given, any editor could have trivially determined that Chan Parker, Jeff Tunnell and Joe Gould are all over 25 years old. e.g. Chan Parker's article names her husband, whose entry on Wikipedia indicates that he died in 1955. Can we expect editors to do 30 seconds of research to find this out? Pburka 23:51, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • I think that it should be seen as an advantage for this criterion that in cases of a dispute occurring it is relatively simple to disqualify an article from speedy deletion with either of two simple modifications to the article: the citation of a source of some kind or the addition of a date of birth or other indication that the subject is over 25 (to articles that give no age). Uncle G June 29, 2005 15:57 (UTC)
  • It's not clear how the criteria should be applied to dead people. e.g. is Henry Ford (jazz) a candidate for speedy deletion? (He shouldn't be). I think that the criteria should be reworded to only include living people under 25. Although Wikipedia is not a memorial, the simple fact that a person died before 25 implies that there may be some notability; such a biography deserves a VfD discussion. Pburka 00:12, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • The case of people aged 25 or under who were born more than 25 years ago is where the criterion needs some slight attention. However, the study turned up no nominations for such corner case articles. All of the dead people nominated during the week that the study ran either had sources or were over 25. Uncle G June 29, 2005 15:57 (UTC)
      • I've tightened the wording. Henry Ford (jazz) would not qualify, because although he was 21 when he died, had he not died he would be over 25 now. Uncle G June 29, 2005 16:34 (UTC)
        • My preference would be to exclude dead people from this speedy deletion criteria altogether. As you said, none of the articles in the sample group about dead people have met the proposed criteria for speedy deletion, so it won't significantly decrease the efficaciousness of the criteria. I think it would also be simpler. Instead of persons who now are (or now would be, were they still alive) aged 25 or under you could just specify living persons who are aged 25 or under. Pburka 1 July 2005 01:01 (UTC)
  • First of all, I think this is a freshly original contribution to the clear and present problem of blatant vanity. I think it takes some steps in the necessary direction, but I think some slight extensions might merit consideration. Consider first that people who make vanity articles are usually shiny new to Wikipedia and didn't read much policy guidance first. So any article written as 'I/we/us/our' should also be a candidate whether the person is under a slightly-arbitrary 25yrs or not — a small instruction-creep that does no damage and provides a pretty strong indicator of whether it is probably vanity of the kind we seek to deal with. If they've put enough thought in to read the guidance, that's a bit different (some vanity articles are actually admiration-articles), but the rest of the criterion still applies. The criterion needs extending to companies under some age limit too e.g. 5-7 years along with the grammar-person extension. Finally, I think that it should be made explicit that the links must be external and not to include another Wiki. I think with some insertion of this kind of thing, this criterion would be good shot — until people realize the rules. -Splash 00:27, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
    • any article written as 'I/we/us/our — I suggest performing a study of that to see whether in fact it would provide a significant gain over the criterion as it currently stands. The criterion needs extending to companies under some age limit too — It is other approaches to other problems, such as corporate vanity and web site vanity, that this proposal is intended to provoke. I think that those two problems should be handled by criteria separate from this one, though. Uncle G June 29, 2005 15:57 (UTC)
  • In the samples from June 25th, it seems that your criterion fails to catch about half of the vanity pages that nevertheless get unanimous vote to delete. It seems to me, then, that your earlier assumption of 75% is incorrect, and that a stricter proposal would be more useful. For instance, dropping the age restriction might help - especially as in several of the examples, the age is not listed but conjectured from other given facts. Radiant_>|< June 28, 2005 09:40 (UTC)
  • Violates the KISS principle. It's easier to just put them up for VfD. Nathan256 29 June 2005 16:38 (UTC)
    • On the contrary, it's a quite straightforward criterion, and it is more difficult to put things through the normal deletion process than to put them through the speedy deletion process. Uncle G June 29, 2005 17:29 (UTC)

[edit] Friends of Avril Lavigne should not be allowed to write articles?

I have a query - let's take a hypothetical case, but one that is not only feasible, but fairly close to some biographical articles I've written. Say I was a friend of - for argument's sake - someone like Avril Lavigne, having gone to school with her and followed her career closely. She is now, at 20 years of age, a huge star, but rather than cite any sources, I simply write what I know about her from personal experience. We now have an unreferenced article of someone under the age of 25, yet with possibly more information than a standard website or biography of the person would have given. Under the proposed rules, this could be speedy deleted, right? Grutness...wha? 2 July 2005 12:20 (UTC)

  • It depends from what you actually wrote.
    • One typically bad form of friend-of-Avril-Lavigne biography, where practically nothing would exist after the POV content was removed, would indeed qualify for speedy deletion under this hypothetical criterion:
      Avril Lavigne is the greatest pop star in the world. She is very sexy.
    • As would another, where practically nothing would exist after the unverifiable "from personal experience" content was removed (as it would be anyway, and which would probably garner a "if not completely rewritten, delete and let the redlinks stand" consensus at VFD):
      I grew up with Avril Lavigne. When she and I were little, we used to play together and sang in the same choir. She still hasn't given back to me the tie that I lent to her.
    • However, typically biographies about people where there wouldn't be a universal consensus to delete (or to junk the entire content of the article when cleaning up) at least attempt an encyclopaedic tone and style, and the criterion is deliberately easy to evade, even for people aged 25 or under, in the cases where an article would end up being kept at VFD. A mere mention of a local newspaper report would disqualify the article from speedy deletion under this hypothetical criterion:
      Avril Lavigne is a singer. On 2005-06-29 the Ottowa Citizen reported that she was getting married.
    • As would a link to a fan site:
      Avril Lavigne (born 1984-09-27) is a famous singer who used to have a penchant for ties. For pictures see this web page.
      Avril Lavigne (born 1984-09-27) is a Canadian singer. External links: my fan page.
    • Or a reference to a book:
      Avril Lavigne (born 1984-09-27) is a singer and songwriter. There's a book about her, ISBN 1852270497.
    • Or other, more unusual, sources, cited informally (and note here that the point is the citation of the source, not what the assertion made by the source is):
      Avril Lavigne is the 62nd sexiest woman in the world according to the FHM 100 Sexiest Women in the World 2004.
  • The study conducted on this page considers actual, concrete, cases rather than hypothetical ones made up "for argument's sake". Doing the same here with some articles that you actually created reveals that the friend-of-Avril-Lavigne article doesn't seem to exist in practice in the first place:
  • Uncle G 2005-07-02 15:03:03 (UTC)

[edit] General notes of support

I know it's not open for voting yet, but if and when it is, I'll vote for it. JesseW 30 June 2005 22:19 (UTC)

[edit] Study of existing articles

I conducted a very brief survey on existing articles which appears to show that the majority of existing articles on under-25-year-olds started out (and generally kept going for a long time) as un-referenced works. Please see Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Proposal/2#Existing_articles_which_would_have_been_deleted_per_this_CSD. — Asbestos | Talk 6 July 2005 00:35 (UTC)