Talk:Umbilicoplasty
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[edit] Converting Stub to article with references
I am a plastic surgeon and see patients from around the world for my belly button sculpture and recognized as enough of an expert to have been quoted about Belly Button Umbilicoplasty in the media. Here are some of the more recent examples:
This stub needed fleshing out, which I have started. Performing this surgery for many years and recording the emotion of individuals why they are having this surgery and what the surgery has been like, I bring a different prospective to the encylopedia. Granted, some of the stuff there to start with was pretty bad, but I stopped adding details until I better understood Wikipedia politics, taking a slow approach before committing too much time to see work on public education evaporate.
The changes were then deleted saying (rm commercial links, cleanup, stub and unref tags)
As I am new here I am trying to learn, but you have an expert who has been quoted about the belly button surgery he does multiple times adding links that adresses this flag:
This article or section does not adequately cite its references or sources.
Why should the content and the references be removed?
From my reading this fits the:
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- Exceptions
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- As mentioned above there are a few specific situations in which a self-published source can be considered reliable. These include:
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- When a well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as his or her work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications. Editors should exercise caution for two reasons: first, if the information on the professional researcher's blog (or self-published equivalent) is really worth reporting, someone else will have done so; second, the information has been self-published, which means it has not been subject to any independent form of fact-checking.
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The website the link refers to has been peer reviewed by members The ASAPS the American Society of Asthetic Plastic Surgery, American Society of Plastic Surgery, Dorland Healthcare best of web, and Castle Connolly Top Doctor where some of my specialties is listed as umbilicoplasty, tummy tuck and body lift surgery.
If an expert contributes to Wikipedia, he is to avoid using the currently best resources on the web if the resources are his own?
The links document the technique, discuss the risks, benefits, access to resources about leaving the belly button alone, and images of the many shapes that the belly button has.
As such I am restoring the edits and am looking for help understanding how to proceed. --Plastic Surgeon 10:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The first reference has pictures before and after belly button surgery demonstrating the change from 'outie" to "innie" concepts that words alone just do not convey.
The second, pictures of early belly button healing just was something I could not find to teach the public, so I took the pictures myself.
The lower external link section was to provide access to many examples of the surgery, the techniques used, and movies how belly buttons moved before and after surgery. Looking for help, and information, to see if I am to continue working here to improve this resource.--Plastic Surgeon 10:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Response
Most of what you have written above is unreadable. It's not easy to tell where your quotes begin and end and where your commentary begins and ends. I will try to address your concerns: As far as the external links go, the website is a commercial website selling plastic surgery procedures. Please review Wikipedia:Spam#How_not_to_be_a_spammer:
- "Review your intentions. Wikipedia is not a space for personal promotion or the promotion of products, services, Web sites, fandoms, ideologies, or other memes. If you're here to tell readers how great something is, or to get exposure for an idea or product that nobody's heard of yet, you're in the wrong place. Likewise, if you're here to make sure that the famous Wikipedia cites you as the authority on something (and possibly pull up your sagging PageRank) you'll probably be disappointed."
The rest of the edits were for WP:NPOV:
- Example: "For many, the 'innie' looks much better than the 'outie'." -- according to whom? POV.
and for encyclopedic tone:
- Example: A section header was titled "Belly Button A Scar With Shape" -- grammatically incorrect, and not encyclopedic even if the grammar was fixed
- Example: "Fashion today often leaves the belly button exposed. Some just do not like the look of an 'outie' belly button and prefer the look of an 'innie.'" This reads like a brochure, not an encyclopedia article.
The wholesale reversion of my attempt to bring this article up to an encyclopedic standard is not appropriate. This is not a brochure for umbilicoplasty, this is an encyclopedia article. I have reinstated two of the references and have moved one to the External Links section. Please be sure to read the WP:Manual of style and WP:Spam for indications as to why I changed the previous version. Feel free to add to the article, but please do not revert to the unencylopedic prior version. Joie de Vivre 16:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Response
Sorry, for the formating above, I have tried to improve it using your methods in your post. Hope it reads better.
As far as how something is written to fit Wikipedia, I am glad to learn and evolve in my contribution. As far as content about Encyclopedic about what should be included for Umbilicoplasty, I hope you are also prepared to learn because the current revisions are far from Encyclopedic, they are not comprehensive for the pubic understanding about belly button surgery - umbilicoplasty is all about.
1. Nature of the belly button, I was trying to say that the belly button is a scar
2. This scar is something unique, having healed shortly after birth, the healing of an umbilicoplasty cannot expected to be the same.
3. The shape of the belly button is different for each person but can be classified
4. There are types of belly buttons that are preferred. Patients requesting a different belly button for me range about 30:1 asking to be converted from outie to inne vs from innie to outie. This is in the literature and the reference: http://www.plasticsurgery4u.com/male_plastic_surgery/why_men_have_nipples.html
quoted Puckett's article, the original of which is in Doctor Speak and also backs up that statement.
5. Different strokes for different folks, just because a belly button is different does not mean it needs surgery
6. That Umbilicoplasty surgery takes many forms depending on the problem to be addressed
7. That some prefer to get rid of scars they do not like from belly button rings, that others prefer a belly button to wear rings. Thinking twice before committing to a belly button ring is a behind the scene theme I would like to address.
8. I was then going to get into the risks and techniques of the surgery.
Do you have a better way of phrasing the content?
Here is my attempt that would like to better understand how it should be phrased:
The belly button was the attachment of the umbilical cord while in the womb. Newborn healing is special, and scars heal much better than later in life.[3] Belly button shape varies and different shapes please different people. For many, the "innie" looks better than the "outie." Some belly buttons are a vertical slit, some round, others "T" shaped. Horizontal slits are less popular as this tends to come with weight and loose tissues.[4] Shape is influenced by the thickness of the abdominal wall fat. With obesity, the belly button stalk stretches and a deep crater can be difficult to care for.
An umbilicoplasty by itself usually takes from half an hour to 3 hours. It is typically performed under local anesthesia, but the patient may be given a sedative that is administered through an intravenous drip. When done as part of a tummy tuck or lower body lift, many need general anesthesia.
Umbilicoplasty belly button surgery can take many forms depending on the problem to be solved. External scars are minimized since the incision is usually made inside the contour of the navel. There can be some bruising and minoor discomfort. Although surface stitches are required, they are typically the kind that dissolves after a few days. Deeper sutures may be permanent.
As with any surgery, some individuals should probably not consider having bellybutton surgery. These include individuals with a history of uncontrollable bleeding, an immune system disorder or a history of mental illness to do with self-image or self esteem.
--Plastic Surgeon 00:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- I truly appreciate your efforts to communicate with me and address my concerns. However the version you provided above still does not sound encyclopedic. The whole thing still reads like an informational brochure. The word "should", as in "some individuals should probably not consider having bellybutton surgery" fails WP:Neutral point of view. It just does not sound encyclopedic. I have edited what you produced above. Here is my edit:
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- Most umbilicoplasty procedures create a symmetrical, vertically oriented oval shape. Some umbilicoplasty procedures are performed to change a protruding navel to an inverted shape.
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- An umbilicoplasty procedure may last from one half hour to three hours. It is typically performed under local anesthesia, but in some cases, a sedative may be iadministered through an intravenous drip. When umbilicoplasty is performed as part of a tummy tuck or lower body lift, general anesthesia may be used.
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- Umbilicoplasty belly button surgery can vary, depending on the individual's body shape and the desired outcome. External scars are minimal, because the incision is usually made inside the contour of the navel. Sticthes are used to close the wound, typically the kind that dissolve after a few days. Deeper sutures may be left permanently. Those who have had umbilicoplasty may experience bruising and discomfort afterwards.
- The self-published references are not allowed. The business about societal preferences isn't from a broad enough group of people to speak from the general public. The business about different navel shapes and navel shape preferences really isn't factual or appropriate. Joie de Vivre 00:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
