Talk:Ultima

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Famicom style controller This article is within the scope of WikiProject Video games. For more information, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the assessment scale.
Top This article is on a subject of Top priority within gaming for inclusion in Wikipedia 1.0.
VG To-do:

Archive 1

Contents

[edit] Seperate articles on the games

I don't feel bold enough to do it without asking first, but I am a big fan of shorter articles, as this feels more Hypertext-like (and I've done this breaking down already on some other articles, like History of Croatia or Software Engineering). I would love to break this one down, and I will, if no one objects here for some days. --denny vrandečić 14:32, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)

Wholeheartedly seconded! I mean, Final Fantasy games have separate articles, why shouldn't Ultima games? =) The article is getting fairly gigantic, and I think there's already enough information for individual articles in the entries as they are (or at least as blurbs on main Ultima article, or article stubs). Now all we need is an intelligently-made edit of this stuff. There might be some breakage of linking, though; Initially, it'd be ideal to keep the existing section headers here and link to main articles from there, to avoid breaking anything at first. --Wwwwolf 23:40, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OK, done. Now the articles need clean up, especially this main article. It looks like a big ugly bunch of lists right now, this should be changed, please (but it's too late here for that, so I rather leave this to someone else - or to some other time) --denny vrandečić 23:41, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Avatar as Christ?

Actually, the term Avatar is from the Hindu religious faith, and while Hinduism is remarkably liberal in their acceptance of other religions (and other religious figures), the term Avatar is specific to a divine being that manifests in a special human form (in some cases, an animal form). I do believe Richard Garriott was utilizing several myth motifs, such as might be read in Joseph Campbell's books on mythology and in D&D rulebooks that are optional additions (such as Unearthed Arcana) -- and not as a subtle religious motif.

Also, Richard has invited the assistance of brilliant, often devoted friends who have supplied ideas and material to his life and writings, so just as conversations and suggestions become a part of a person, so do they often become inextricably part of a game.

To be very specific and concise, I do not believe that Richard ever intended the Avatar to be a Christ figure, but to be a generalised fictional device showing that roleplaying games (like fantasy novels) don't have to be solely about killing and gaining treasure. Roleplaying games can have other motifs and activities too. This is not so much Christ-like as Human-like. The function of religion and of art can be remarkably similar!

(Edit: I just wanted to add that I meant the drive of this to be that maybe it's being a little heavy handed to say The Avatar is inimical or similar to Christ, because it's not said that the Avatar is inimical or similar to Buddha, but rather what is conveyed by this fiction is similar in *structure* to Buddha's structured teachings.

Well, in Christianity, Christ was God in human form--and this is interpreted in different ways. I think the main difference here between Christianity and some other religions is that Christianity thinks God can be represented in an absolute, single form. The Avatar is the God of the Ultima games (the player) and serves some of the same purpose of driving the story and redeeming everyone :) I don't think this was intentional but a result of Garriott trying to introduce religious symbolism into the game. I don't the symbolism taken from different religions is meant to represent one religion over the other, just provide a framework for the game and create a dialogue about the aims of religion. Look at my later post on this page about Christianity and Ultima, where I mention how some Christian symbolism was introduced. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.121.245.155 (talk) 20:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Should the remakes section be wiped off?

I have been thinking about it sometime. I will explain my point of view. The Engine Rewrite Projects section is in my point of view a section to talk about preservation efforts. The Remake Projects section on the other hand talks about things of little value to the article.

Imagine an article about a painting, and a section mentioning an organized staff dedicated to helping preserve and revive the painting so it does not keep wearing down and the public can admire it as if it were in its time of splendor. Now, think about a section of that same article mentioning a bunch of street artists creating their own version of that painting, which does not look anything at all like the original, just includes what the artists considered "key elements". Are those street artists even worth mentioning in the article? In my point of view, mentioning them is of little value, since they are not really contributing to the original painting.

Even though I like the comparison of Ultima to a painting (yes, it's art!) I'm not sure I can agree. I don't know if street artists do new versions of classic paintings all the time, but I think that fan-made remakes of games are pretty rare. This makes Ultima special in that regard, so I think the remakes section should stay. Maybe a note stating that this is pretty rare in the game world can be added. TerokNor 22:30, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I do think the article is far too long. But wiping this section doesn't really help. Wouldn't it be an idea to create own articles for every game, and give here a one and a half or two page summary? --denny vrandečić 16:06, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
I suggest pages for series/ages, rather than for each game - on their own the pages would be distressingly short. Krupo 18:21, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
The only thing keeping the individual entries short is that they are all mashed to the main Ultima article. If there were individual per-game articles, maybe people would start making them bigger and bigger. Series could be covered in the Ultima article. Just a thought. --Wwwwolf 23:44, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Its not as if important works of art or themes or characters they established haven't been carried on by other people. Part of my issue with a section on remakes is that frankly I think the remakes are just bad, and second that they serve no purpose in being Ultima games rather than being inspired by Ultima. This is an opinion, but its not as if I want to remove the section on remakes, I'd just question formatting the remake section to have a link to each and every one of the remakes, as if the article is about them, rather than the original games. If you make the article about them it doesn't highlight what made the Ultima games significant. Its not as if an article on Faust should list every appropriation of the Faust story in other places, or an article on Shakespeare should list every adaptation of Shakespeare plays. Of course this happens often on Wikipedia, which makes it less like an encyclopedia than a dump for information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.121.245.155 (talk) 23:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Feelies?

The Ultima games were also famous for the goodies included in the game boxes. From Ultima II on, every main Ultima game came with a cloth map of the game world. Starting with Ultima IV, small trinkets like pendants, coins and magic stones were found in the boxes. Made of metal or glass, they usually represented an important object also found within the game itself.

Were these ever known as feelies? That's the name usually used for the very similar objects included in Infocom packages; if the name's used in common I might write an article covering both. Marnanel 16:29, May 23, 2004 (UTC)

Dunno about the exact term, but the concept is notable as a copy protection scheme, albeit not mentioned by name in that article. Stan 19:07, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
That's not true. Apart from the maps, the goodies like the Moonstone or the Ankh or the Fellowship Coin or the Virtue cards were absolutely useless as copy protection. They were not included in the collections, either. They were just goodies. And I never heard the term feelies used for them, although they certainly compare to those nice Infocom feelies (yucky worm). --denny vrandečić 22:04, May 24, 2004 (UTC)
I agree. And I think the only time the maps were used as copy protection was in Ultima 7. In the other games they were helpful, but not necessary. About the term 'feelies', I've ever only heard it in connection with Infocom, might even be a term used by the company itself. The term I've most often heard regarding the Ultima items was just 'trinkets'. TerokNor 16:45, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
I Agree: 'trinkets' was the name used in the Origin's catalogs (Piajeno 07:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC))
The playbooks were used as copy protection schemes, and they are actual items from inside the game as well. They don't fall under the cathegory of trinkets, though.

[edit] Cheats

It merits mention that Ultima 6 was also the first to have cheating built into the game as an easter egg. (sure, I'm bitter about it, ruined the series for me. :-b )

That is because it was harder to edit the savegame files manually in Ultima VI and above. For Ultima V and under, it could be done easily with MS-DOS Edit, or debug for those who knew how to use it. It is necesary to be able to cheat when you do testing and debugging.--Sheng Long Gradilla 20:36, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] 84.57.66.177's comments

84.57.66.177 added some comments on the various patches to U9. I'm not sure whether or not they should be there. They're sort of POV, but it's strange to have POV issues with patches to a game, of all things... Krupo 06:50, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ultima template

I see someone took the time to create an article for every Ultima game, move the info from this article to those and add a template listing those pages. Well, I think that template was badly designed. I have no idea of how to create those things, and I don't even know the way they work, but just take a look at the way it adds a lot of space in the beginning of the articles. I've edited the main page now (it's side by side with the Contents plate now), but it looks horribly deranged in the other articles. Messy.

I think someone (maybe the one responsible for those changes) should fix that. I'm not sure I can. The Ultima article was fine the way it was before, in my opinion (regardless of size), so if someone volunteers to divide everything into several articles, said person should also take measures to make it in a standardized way, and not the way it is now. There's new work to do now, with links, Italics, etc. Just check those articles. – Kaonashi 02:48, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hi Kaonashi! Well, thanks for noticing and pointing to some of the mistakes. You were right, I did a mistake in the Template:Ultima, therefore it looked quite strange, but I didn't notice that yesterday right away. I hope that I could solve some of the more obious layout mistakes - I do strongly agree with you, that the articles still need some work to be done. New links, a bit more wording -- but I do also say that already above, maybe you have overlooked it.
Actually, I did discuss the breaking up of the lengthy article into smaller pieces (see top of the page), and we had "consensus" (well, that is, one person answered and said it's a neat idea, and no one said anything against, so don't take this consensus word here too serious), and I still believe it is a good idea to break up the article.
If you still think, there are some badly designed points on the template, please tell me so, and point me to the mistakes. I tried to fix the issues you raised, I hope, but maybe there's more, please state yourself more explicit what's bothering you.
And finally, I really don't think there's a standardized way to break up a lengthy article (at least I missed it, but I will gladly take notice of a provided link), but I did this already a few times (like on History of Croatia and Software Engineering), and there it worked well, so I tried it here as well. But, as said, I will gladly accept hints and do take criticism. --denny vrandečić 13:32, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)

Hello. Yeah, it looks so much better now, the template. Thank you for fixing it. The articles look better, too. I'll see what else I can tune up on them. About the template, I think it's fine the way it is now. Maybe some italics for the titles of the games, but maybe it isn't really necessary. About dividing the Ultima article, I think it's alright. I didn't read those messages you talked about, so sorry about that.

Thanks for the concern, again. I'll let you know about any problems. – Kaonashi 02:06, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've reshaped the template to landscape. I've also moved it to the bottom of articles that use it. Now it works much better with articles like Ultima Underworld. Not sure how to center the template itself, so can someone do that?--DooMDrat 13:10, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Release dates

I have just changed the release date of Akalabeth to 1980 and that of Ultima to 1981. Even though the dates of 1979 and 1980 are often reported, I believe they are wrong. Evidence is here: [1] at Jocksitter Dragon's Collection. The very first release of Akalabeth (hand-assembled by Garriott) has a 1980 copyright date on the label. Likewise, the first Ultima release from California Pacific has a 1981 date. This story [2] at the Origin Museum also confirms the Akalabeth date. I will change the Aka and U1 articles as well. TerokNor

D'oh. Well, I just changed some of the Akalabeth dates back since all the sources currently cited in the affected articles said 1979. The affected articles should at least mention the year discrepancy (with a link to these pictures), since Origin and Garriott himself say 1979. --Mrwojo 16:06, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

One of my roommates had a book copyright 1999 in a class he was taking Fall 1998. I remember saying that it should be perfectly legal to make copies of that book until the end of the year. - Anon guy

Sorry, I should have mentioned this post in the edit summaries. As for the dates, I would always trust artifacts from the time more than people's possibly faulty memories (including Garriott's) or something written by corporate people (i.e. Origin) who probably don't have first hand experience. Note however that Garriott has not always said it was 1979: On the Certificate of Authenticity written by Garriott quoted in the Origin Museum story, the 1980 date appears as well. Akalabeth article looks good now with your changes. TerokNor 16:58, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Wow, this definitively surprises me, as I believed for 10 years, Ultima I was release in 1980 - remember, in 1990, when Ultima VI was celebrated with 10 years of Ultima? All the sources said 1980 - and now it is 1981... My whole life has just changed :) I wonder, why the wrong date is so widely published, though. --denny vrandečić 09:47, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ultima in the Final Fantasy games

I'm pretty sure that the Ultima spell in the Final Fantasy games is not some kind of omage to the Ultima series (being that the Ulitma spell is the best possible spell in the game), but that it is just a shortened version of the word "Ultimate," since it is the ultimate spell in the game. It's an interesting coincidence but I dont' think that it is related to the Ultima series of games, as the Japanese version of the spell is different. - Anon 2/1/06

You know, I've been wondering about this. Square's original development team, including Sakaguchi and Tanaka, were HUGE Ultima fans. In college, they'd stay up all night playing Ultima II, and it did, in fact, inspire them to become game designers. At least, that's according to a really old (1985) issue of a Japanese PC magazine called LOGiN when they interviewed Square's (then extremely small) development team. A lot of people say Final Fantasy is based off of Dragon Quest, but where did Dragon Quest get its tile-based overworld? Ultima, of course! :) --Tristam 15:02, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ultima: Worlds of Adventure

Martian Dreams was released not under the title Worlds of Ultima, but under Ultima: Worlds of Adventure. Odd, as there are only two games in the series, yet inbetween the two the name of the series changed.

[edit] Possible Storylines for U10?

I, like many, had been awaiting the release of Ultima X, or 'Oddyssey' (or however its spelled), only to be disappointed with not only the fact that it didnt get released, but also with the storyline they, EA, came up with. For one, the setting wasnt in Britannia, Serpent Isle, or even PAGAN! What a load! So, to make a long article short, I am making this article so others can attach thier own U10 storyline ideas, because EA's sucked, as always (they seem to be screwing up Ultima right and left nowdays, Age of Shadows was a good idea, for the most part, as Paladins and Necros were IN the original Ultima storyline, but never Ninjas/Samurai, leave the non-story crap out, please, EA.).

-- My Idea: (for now, Ultima X : A New Generation)

For many centuries after the last Avatar's ascent into the Void, the lands of Britannia have been in a time of relative peace and tranquility. Crops and people were prosperous, new ores and inventions were beginning to make the scene, new technologies erupted with the new generations. However, this time of peace would soon come to an end, as the ailing Lord British, finally succumbing to the ravages of time, left this world for the next. Having need for a new sovreign, many Britannians came to test thier worthiness and pull the legendary Sword of Blackrock from its earthen resting place. One day, a strange man came, he gave the Sword a simple, seemingly effortless tug, and it came out as if stuck inside soft butter. This man became the new Lord of Britannia, his name was Lord Oroborus. And once again, Britannia entered a state of peace, however, many saw strange clouds gathering around Castle British, odd winds blew, and the tides became erratic and unpredictable. Soon, a series of massive earthquakes shook the towns of Paws and Britain to thier very foundations, these kinds of earthquakes were only witnessed once before, when the being calling itself 'The Guardian' had first attempted to come to Britannia and the now sunken Isle of Fire had risen from its watery grave. The Isle of Fire rose once more, but it had been perverted, the once tall, pictureesque statues of the Three Principles had been twisted and deformed into dark, daemonic things. The Castle soon closed its walls, and the land began to be attacked by all sorts of unholy beasts, ranging from the undead to massive stone or iron golems. A small order of mages living on the Isle of the Avatar recognised these signs, and saw that eight great daemons had infiltrated the land, and taken the mind of the new sovreign, each symbolising an anti-virtue. Thier one, last hope, now rested on one from another world to prove thierself an paragon of Virtue, and an Avatar of the people, and send the daemons back to the firey hells from whence they came.

Nah.


It could be cool, but Lord British would never die 'cause he represents Richard Garriott. It'd be cooler if they could resurrect the Avatar.

[edit] merge Mongbat (Ultima)

I propose that the information in this article be merge into this article as it violates WP:NOT the article Mongbat (Ultima) is a game guide. Gnangarra 13:31, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I think, rather, it should just be deleted. It's not worth mentioning in the main article namespace and it certainly doesn't merit a separate article. -- Wizardry Dragon (Talk to Me) (Support Neutrality on Wikipedia) 15:57, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Delete it, or distill it to one sentence on this article. SWoods 09:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ugly whitespace

I put a box around the Ultima logo to reduce the empty space and balance the page. From looking at the Final Fantasy page, I think that lengthening the introductory paragraph to two or three paragraphs and reducing the size of the graphic would do just as well. Of course, that requires something to say. Brilliand 00:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mt. Drash and other non-canonical material

Seems that some anonymous user removed Ultima: Escape from Mt. Drash from the list of games, saying it was not related to the series. I put it back last night. I agree it's not strictly related to the series, but I still think it should be on the list, to avoid confusion and for the sake of completeness. (There's bound to be someone who runs into a reference to this game and wonders "I wonder how it's related to Ultima series?" I'm comfortable enough to tell "No, it's not really related per se, but it has an interesting story behind it" rather than "We refuse to discuss it, and you have to guess the rest". =) It is, after all, somehow related to the series in that it was a SquareEnixesque attempt at riding on the highly popular series' popularity. =) I mean, if we list other non-canonical titles (like Ultima Online), in my opinion we should have little trouble with Drash either. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 08:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lists

Hey there, I notice there's quite a bit of lists in the first section. As per WP:NOT (a collection of lists) and WP:MOS someone really ought to change that into prose. If no one gets it before I do, I'll do it when I have a moment. Cheers ✎ Wizardry Dragon (Talk to Me) (My Contributions) (Support Neutrality on Wikipedia) 00:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christianity and Ultima

I just edited to add this, after the section where the article suggests that the three principles have something to do with the Wizard of Oz and right after it talks about Hinduism.

"The three principles are also linked in the game to the symbols of the bell (Bell of Courage), book (Book of Truth) and candle (Candle of Love), which are the objects that were expended in the Catholic excommunication ceremony. In general, the Ultima games take symbolism from many different religious and philosophical sources."

This is apparent when you go back to Ultima 4 and see all of the NPCs are named after religious or philosophical figures.

Its often assumed that Ultima is negative about Christianity, because in some ways the Fellowship in Ultima 7 may seem like a Christian organization, and Richard Garriott has had negative things to say about certain absolute Christian views; but it seems obvious that he respected the religious traditions, and Christian symbolism does show up in the game, as in the example I cited. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.121.245.155 (talk) 20:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Falling out between Garriott and EA?

The following quote is from the article: "The creator, Richard Garriott, no longer owns the rights to the game, nor participates in the development, however he still owns the rights to several of the characters from the game. Due to this, it is impossible for either Richard Garriott or EA to create a new Ultima game without first getting permission from the other, which is unlikely."

Okay ... *why* is this unlikely? Maybe it is obvious to dedicated Ultima afficionadoes, but this conclusion isn't referenced and there is nothing else in this article that explains why there is no probability this will occur. Judging from an outsider's point of view (I played Ultimas II through IV back in the day, but am not up on any background lore about the creators) this does not seem very unlikely to me at all. So obviously, I'd like to know why. Perhaps the article should get into this a little bit, or if not, maybe remove this conclusion because it doesn't make any sense all on its own.--64.229.27.196 09:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ultima mini-template

I added a mini-template to the game pages of Ultima I, VI and VII to get feedback on style from other editors. I feel the Ultima pages will be well served by something tying them together, but the more complete navbox is not as suitable for the game pages themselves, thus I made a small template linking to this article (to the right), and it is adjusted to fit snugly inside the VG navboxes. What do you think? Miqademus (talk) 17:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Use the series field instead. Also that fair use logo doesn't contribute to the articles in anyway. --Mika1h (talk) 17:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Manga

If someone could find either the Japanese text names for the Ultima mangas or the ISBNs/AISNs, I could get one of my sellers to locate them & contribute information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.122.193 (talk) 23:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

Hello, everyone. I have rewritten the overview section on my sandbox, so I'd like to know your opinion on it before I add it... I also reworked the navigation templates (scroll down the sandbox). --Koveras ☭ 23:12, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, since nobody cares, here goes... --Koveras ☭ 19:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)