Talk:Ulster (disambiguation)

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[edit] The revert war/style issue

Hi guys (Jonto, Jtdirl),

After your "discussion" on my talk page as of late I have not decided which side to take, as yet, however I do recommend that in the first instance you read Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages) which is what I have done and to consider it. Djegan 17:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I'm simply highlighting the fact that to refer to Northern Ireland as 'Ulster' is incorrect. My intention is definitely not to push a pov agenda. Furthermore, I do not believe that it could be plausably argued that a pov article has resulted because of my slight adjustment. Tír Eoghain abú 02:05, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Who is to say what the "correct" term is? "Ulster" is as ambiguous a term as "Ireland", and depends upon context. Many dictionaries list the only definition of Ulster as referring to NI, such as the Microsoft dictionary in Microsoft Works. Other dictionaries will only mention it as being one of 4 Irish provinces. Other dictionaries mention both. Your adjustment has PoV issues - the previous edit simply stated the unquestionable fact that "Ulster" often refers to NI. Any more info is too detailed for a disambig page and may raise PoV issues. "Ulster", like many other linguistic terms has no one strict or "correct" definition. Jonto 02:58, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Unionist"

Jtdirl has edited to say that if one says Ulster to mean Northern Ireland then one must be a unionist or a unionist supporter - while some unionists will promote this usage, it is not necessarily used for a political agenda as you imply. To say that one must therefore be unionist or a supporter of unionism to use the phrase in this way is an error in logic. If today you said "Ulster" to someone in Great Britain or anywhere else outside Ireland, then many people even with little interest in Northern Irish politics would assume that you were talking about Northern Ireland. "Ulster" also rolls off the tongue (or keyboard!) easier than "Northern Ireland" for many.

Many third party encyclopedias and dictionaries give Ulster a prominent definition as a synonym Northern Ireland. There is no unionist qualifier involved, and this prominent usage cannot be denied as common.

Wikipedia also currently reserves the Ulster page to discuss the 9 county area. Surely, this in itself already gives greater prominence to the 9 county area (which I don't disagree with doing). However, denying the reality of common usage to Ulster as six counties, and hiding it towards the bottom (first done by jtdirl) seems exactly like the "PoV pushing" that jtdirl refers to. This is also a disambiguation page - the ins and outs of the issue should be in the article itself and not here - just state the simple facts and related articles. Jonto 03:43, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the arguments above by Jonto.

Further, I can add some of my own. Not only do many people in Britain know exactly what is meant by "Ulster" in the correct context.. and I mean people who have no specific ineterest in the politics of one 'side' or the other.. but they also refer to it as Ulster themselves. I have even heard foreigners with no specific interest, refer to NI as "Ulster".

On top of that, I have heard non-unionists in Northern Ireland describe it as "Ulster" on many occassions.

Finally, the term is often used as part of the descriptive names of organisations and bodies that operate within the confines of Northern Ireland - not all of these organisations are unionist.

Therefore, I have decided to edit this as the way it stands is misleading, untrue and POV. --Mal 15:54, 28 February 2006 (UTC)