Template talk:Ukraine Labelled Map
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[edit] River name
For the Ukrainizers please familiarise yourselves with WP:NC(UE) and also do explain the logic of having Kiev and Odessa and not Dnieper? --Kuban Cossack 21:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
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- Per WP:NC(UE) we need to use the most widely used English name. For the part of the river pictured on the Ukrainian map the most widely used name is Dnipro, not Dnieper. To begin with, consider the Google test: Dnipro (905,000 hits) vs. Dnieper (323,000 hits). --Novelbank 22:52, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'll have to agree with Kuban kazak on this one. I did some research, and according to Britannica, Dnieper is an English name. Therefore, per policy mentioned above, I'm changing it back to Dnieper, feel free to object here. And please don't use Google tests. — Alex(U|C|E) 18:02, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm aware that Britannica is using Dnieper, and I agree that Dnieper is an English name. Howeever, there are other English names, such as Dnipro or Dnepr. And among the English names we need to use the most common English name in the considered context. I was testing a few different variants in Google and found that Dnipro is the most commonly used, especially in the Ukrainian context (generally, the river is passing through Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia, and is used not only in the Ukrainian geographic context). You mentioned that you "did some research". Besides Britannica, are there any reasons to claim Dnieper is the most common name? And please note that we are not talking about the title name of the article, but we are discussing a redirect, which should reflect the most widely used name in the context of the article. As an example, we use Lviv as the title of the city article, but we use Lwow in the historical articles about the time the city was under Polish rule. Similarly, we use Kharkiv as the title, but we use Kharkov in such articles as Alexander I of Russia or Battle of Kharkov in WWII. --Novelbank 19:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'll have to agree with Kuban kazak on this one. I did some research, and according to Britannica, Dnieper is an English name. Therefore, per policy mentioned above, I'm changing it back to Dnieper, feel free to object here. And please don't use Google tests. — Alex(U|C|E) 18:02, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
- Per WP:NC(UE) we need to use the most widely used English name. For the part of the river pictured on the Ukrainian map the most widely used name is Dnipro, not Dnieper. To begin with, consider the Google test: Dnipro (905,000 hits) vs. Dnieper (323,000 hits). --Novelbank 22:52, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Sigh... I told you, Google tests don't mean anything. If you go to the end of those search results, there's not a big difference (793 versus 786). Please note that Google indexes ALL websites, including inappropriate ones. And as far as I know, Dnepr and Dnipro are simply transliterations of foreign languages and not English words themselves. Britannica is not the only one to refer to the river as Dnieper, Encarta also does. And there's no mention of "Dnipro" in Encarta, unlike Britannica. As for it being the most widely used name, it is debatable. The map still uses "Kiev" instead of "Kyiv". — Alex(U|C|E) 14:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
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- Google is a good starting point. The two numbers that you mentioned (793 versus 786) is a result of Google not servicing (at this point) more than 1000 results for any query. It further combines search results for similar websites. This is how you get 793 and 786 hits. Google does estimate that in total there are about 900,000 webpages with Dnipro vs. about 300,000 webpages with Dnieper. These are raw results. And you are right, among these webpages, there are some unrelated. But as mentioned early, we need to use the most commonly used name in the considered context, which is the Ukrainian administrative map. Given that the river is passing through Ukraine, Belarus, and Russian, in the Ukrainian context the odds are in favor of Dnipro (as this English name was derived from Ukrainian).
- Next, English words are the words that are commonly used in English (literature, other media, verbal conversations, etc). In each language there are words of different origins and nature (native words, words borrowed from other languages, their mixture, modifications, etc). Language is an evolutionary process. But, at the end of the day, the fact is that Dnieper, Dnipro, Dnepr, as well as Kiev and Kyiv are all words of the current English language. (Similarly, think of вертоліт, гелікоптер, гвинтокрил, which all are currently used in Ukrainian).
- Speaking of Kiev vs. Kyiv at this point Kiev is more widely used. (Which does not mean that Kyiv is wrong. It's just an alternative name, which has its scope of usage, and it's gaining popularity). I don't see Dnieper to be that widely used. For example, BBC is using Kiev and Dnipro ([1]). And, again, at the end of the day, the three times difference in favor of Dnipro that Google shows is significant. From what I know, Britannica, Encarta are rather on conservative side in reflecting the most widely used current name. --Novelbank 19:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
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