Template talk:UKFlags

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[edit] Saint Patrick's Flag in series?

Template:UKFlags makes up a series of articles with List of British flags as the main topic. Should Saint Patrick's Flag be added to that series? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 03:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Please continue this discussion at Talk:Saint Patrick's Flag

[edit] Scottish Royal Banner

Since the UK line includes the Royal Standard, wouldn't it be helpful to somehow include the "Lion Rampant"? (See Royal Standard of Scotland and Flag of Scotland.) I'm not making any kind of nationalist point; it just seems an obvious flag which people might want to know about, and a little inconsistent that it's not included, since it is still in current use at official Royal residences, albeit when the monarch is not there. – Kieran T (talk) 14:51, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Northern Ireland

Northern Ireland hasn't got a flag, removed the Ulster Banner from the Template.--padraig3uk 15:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh yes it does. So using padraig3uk's logic, just because the Flag of Cornwall does not have status given by government that we should remove the Flag of Cornwall from all articles containing the flag just because we personally do not like it?? That is what you are saying about the NI flag - the reason for no governmental recognition for the NI flag is because THERE HAS NOT BEEN A REGIONAL GOVERNMENT in NI for most of the last 40 years - the flag itself therefore has an indeterminate "official" status and a definite de facto status.

Northern Ireland dosen't have a legal flag, it is POV to link to a flag that has no legal status for 35yrs.--padraig3uk 20:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I have re-worked this template so that the Northern Ireland flag (and wikilink to the explanatory article) can be included in a (hopefully) NPOV way. (I also used the standard navigation box "container" template for style consistency.) Hopefully this will eliminate any need for revert battles. See my talk page for discussion that led to these changes. Andrwsc 21:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Andrew, I do not find this change in template to be NPOV.
The NI flag is indeed not the de jure flag, but is presently the de facto one. If you recently watched any of the Northern Ireland football matches on TV I'm sure that you would have seen many of these flags.
The only reason it is not de jure is because the governmental body which made the flag caeses to exist - there was no law speifically removing its status nor replacing it with another. Even during, for example, the 1960s this flag was the de jure symbol of the Northern Ireland regional Stormont government and the de facto civil flag - that it still remains today, regardless of the collapse of the previous regional government. Actually, if we want to be really pedantic we could say that it is actually used by ogvernment - it is flown by some councils - i.e. local goverment. Regardless, Northern Ireland is not even a country in the fuller sense of the word, and therefore governmental status is completely irrelevant.
Given the fact that NI's flag is still widely recognisable today and that flags are used for much more than governmental or political reasons, then describing it as 'historical' is completely inaccurate.
Jonto 20:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I am perfectly comfortable with your changes, but I'm not sure that User:Padraig3uk etc. will be. My edits were an attempt to find consensus and stop revert warring over NI flag articles and templates. You may have just opened up that can of worms again! Maybe adding "(de facto)" after the NI flag might help clarify its slightly different status...? Andrwsc 20:56, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I have no problem with your suggestion, but in all honestly doubt that Padraig3uk will be happy to recognise anything that reflects any current usage of this flag. Jonto 21:15, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
To use the Ulster Banner as the flag of NI is incorrect and POV.--Vintagekits 22:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
In the 60s it was the legal flag of the Government of Northern Ireland, that government was disolved in 1972 by the British Government, along with its flag. The flag is not legal or used by Government it cannot be flown from any government building in Northern Ireland, and is only used by one or two Unionist controled local authorities out of 28.--padraig3uk 22:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no law outlawing the Northern Ireland flag as such - just one specifying that the Union Flag should be flown on government buildings. Irrespactive, flags are used for more than governmental purposes. Jonto 22:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The Law in question specifies what flags can be flown on government buildings and under what circumstances, the Ulster Banner is not included in that list. Also when the Northern Ireland House of Commons ceased to exist under a Act of Parliament, its flag also lost all legal and Offical status in 1973.--padraig3uk 22:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no law banned the Irish tricolor in NI either - however, there is a law banned them from government buildings - end of story!--Vintagekits 22:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The irish tricolour can hardly be described as a flag that uniquely represents, or is widely recognised as representing, Northern Ireland. Jonto 23:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I think this discussion is going off on an irrelevant tangent. The issue is not one of legality and official status. We are talking about a navigation template that is intended to make it easy for users to access the appropriate "Flag of xx" article in this series. The Flag of Northern Ireland article explains the legal situation well, so I do not think there is a need to overload the template with additional explanation or awkward layout. A navigation template ought to be simple. Please consider this. Andrwsc 23:08, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

It should be easy to navigate - and it should also be factually correct not POV.--Vintagekits 23:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit warring

I have protected this page until the present dispute is resolved. Please attempt to resolve the issues on this talkpage and then request unprotection at WP:RFPP. You may need to ask for community input into the discussion via RfC or seek informal mediation. WjBscribe 22:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I wonder.. in any of these disruptions caused by people who don't like the Flag of Northern Ireland.. are we ever going to see an administrator who freezes editing at a point whereby the status quo is enshrined..?
Every single article I have come across regarding this issue has been frozen in terms of editing in favour of a specifically nationalist POV. Are there any rules Admins should follow regarding this? Last 'stable' version perhaps..? --Mal 09:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Mal this template as it currently stands is correct, the Ulster banner is in the historical flag section, and I have no problem with its use in this manner. If wanting WP to be factual in presenting the correct information in relation to Northern Ireland is POV then Iam guilty, but if that is the case then your attempts to ensure that incorrect informaation is used ie the Ulster banner to represent Northern Ireland today, is that not your POV. your opinion on this issue is at odds to that of the British government:
This is what the British Government says about the Ulster Banner:
Lord Greaves asked Her Majesty's Government:
What legislation covers the definition of the form, shape and design, and any rules about the permitted use, of (a) the union flag; (b) the English flag (cross of St George); (c) the Scottish flag(St Andrew's saltire) (d) the Scottish royal lion flag (e) the Welsh flag (dragon); (f) the flag of Northern Ireland. [HL1099]
18 Jan 2007 : Column WA181
Lord Davies of Oldham: (a & b) There is no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the union flag or the English flag (St George's cross). There are no rules about the permitted use of the union flag or English flag (cross of St George) on non-government buildings, provided the flag is flown on a single vertical flagstaff and neither the flag nor the flagstaff display any advertisement additional to the design of the flag as explained under the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) Regulations 1992. Government departments are restricted to flying flags on 18 fixed days a year in compliance with rules issued by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which considers it improper to fly the union flag upside down and requires that the flag should not be defaced by text or symbols and should be treated with respect.
(c & d) There is also no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the Royal Arms of Scotland (here referred to as The Scottish royal lion flag) or the St Andrew's cross, but the design is firmly specified in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland. The Royal Arms of Scotland can only be used by the Sovereign or Her Great Lieutenants when acting in their official capacity. The Scottish flag(St Andrew's cross) may be flown by Scots and to represent Scotland on all occasions; however, under The Act of Lyon King of Arms Act 1672, cap. 47 individuals may not deface the flag by placing a symbol on top of the flag or use it in such a way that suggests it is his/her personal property.
(e) There is no specific legislation about the Welsh flag design or rules about permitted use.
(f) The union flag is the only official flag that represents Northern Ireland. The Flags (NI) Order 2000 empowered the Secretary of State to make the Flags Regulations (NI) 2000, which governs when and where the union flag can be flown from government buildings in Northern Ireland on specified days. The legislation does not define the form, shape or design of the union flag. Flag flying from non-governmental buildings is unregulated.
For all flags, consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which requires flags to be treated with respect, not to be defaced by text or symbols or flown upside down. [1] --padraig3uk 09:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm fully aware, Padraig, of the question in the house. It is irrelevant however. The template is inaccurate. Your lengthy pasting of the text of it here has, I fear, distracted from the question I had put in this section.

I will repeat it here for clarity:

I wonder.. in any of these disruptions caused by people who don't like the Flag of Northern Ireland.. are we ever going to see an administrator who freezes editing at a point whereby the status quo is enshrined..?
Every single article I have come across regarding this issue has been frozen in terms of editing in favour of a specifically nationalist POV. Are there any rules Admins should follow regarding this? Last 'stable' version perhaps..?

--Mal 11:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

And what nationalist POV is that exactly ?, is the point of view of the British government now regarded as nationalist by you. Surely if you believe that British rule and law is the legitimate governing authority of Northern ireland as you seem to do, then the laws of that body are what should be applied in this case.--padraig3uk 11:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
The British government is indeed nationalist. I believe that British rule and law in Northern Ireland is as legitimate as American rule and law in Texas: because it is fact. Are you suggesting something contrary to the facts?
Once again, the questions and answers in the House's question time is irrelevant to the situation.
Once again, this talk about the constitutional status of Northern Ireland is distracting from the point I had raised, which I feel I have to repeat here, yet again:

I wonder.. in any of these disruptions caused by people who don't like the Flag of Northern Ireland.. are we ever going to see an administrator who freezes editing at a point whereby the status quo is enshrined..?

Every single article I have come across regarding this issue has been frozen in terms of editing in favour of a specifically nationalist POV. Are there any rules Admins should follow regarding this? Last 'stable' version perhaps..? --Mal 18:52, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Mal, the link on this template is to the Flag of Northern Ireland article, which clearly states that northern Ireland has no flag and that the former flag of Goverment of Northern Ireland used from 1953-72 has no official status and is not used in any offical role today. Now there is nothing in that that is POV or untrue in anyway, which is why the flag on this template is in the historical flags group.--padraig3uk 20:49, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
The only reason the Flag of Northern Ireland article says anything near what Padraig claims is because Padraig has been injecting his PoV into that article as well, and recently keeps removing the NPOV tag on that article. Jonto 14:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Jonto, fact is not POV, ignoring fact to say that the Ulster Banner is something it isn't because it suits your pov of things is. Now would you care to point out what edits I have made that inserted what you claim is my POV and provide sources to support your claims, as I have provided evidence that the flag is un-official and shouldn't be used to represent Northern Ireland.--padraig3uk 15:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Section- Royal

I've added a new section for royal flags. The Union Flag is already mentioned in the UK section and NI can go in the Home Nations section. Astrotrain 11:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The Ulster banner can't go in the home nations as it not a current flag, so it either goes back in the Historicl section or its removed.--padraig 12:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't need to be an official flag- this is a flag template so it is acceptable to use unofficial flags if needed, like the England flag does. Astrotrain 12:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
It quite clearly gave the date of its time as the official flag in brackets. I think padraig has made it quite clear he does not care about neutrality but rather about pushing his own POV. Since the flag lost its official status it carries the same status as England's flag (ie, the unofficial flag of a region of the UK) Biofoundationsoflanguage 12:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Biofoundationsoflanguage, I have no problem with the template being restored to include the Ulster Banner as it was in the Historical section where it belonged with the dates, but I do have a problem with trying to protray the banner as a current home nation flag which it is not that is WP:OR and WP:POV.--padraig 13:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Its official status is historical, its use is not. Its use is the same as any other of the flags of the UK home nations which is current. Biofoundationsoflanguage 13:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
No your incorrect the use of the other home nation flags are recognised by the British Government, the Ulster banners use isn't, for you to claim otherwise requires you to produce Sources to prove that, failure to do so is WP:OR and WP:POV.--padraig 13:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
None of them are 'official'. Biofoundationsoflanguage 13:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
The others are recognised, the British Government just dosen't legisate on there useage or size, as has been pointed out in the section above which gives the British governments view on flag usage.--padraig 14:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
You'd do well to define 'recognised' for the purposes of the debate. That said, however, unlike the law I don't believe actions of HM Government in the UK can be said to have some sort of peremptory authority in arguments of this sort. --Breadandcheese 14:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit request for nowrap

{{editprotected}}

Please add Template:nowrap to the contents of the list# parameters as shown below so that the flag images remain with the text. — MrDolomite • Talk 16:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

v • d • e
Flags of the United Kingdom
UK Flag of the United Kingdom (Union Flag)
Home Nations England • Wales • Scotland
Historical Northern Ireland (1953-1972)
Royal Image:Royal Standard of England.svg Royal Standard • Royal Standard for use in Scotland • Royal Standard of Scotland
Ensigns Blue Ensign • Red Ensign • White Ensign • Royal Air Force Ensign • Civil Air Ensign

Flags he:תבנית:דגלי בריטניה ro:Format:Steagurile Marii Britanii

Y Done. (I've quoted the cats and interwikis in the request above now, to stop the talk page using incorrect interwikis and being in cats it shouldn't be in.) --ais523 16:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Convert to navbox from navbox generic

{{edit protected}} I'm requesting that this template be converted from {{Navbox generic}} (which was deprecated) to {{Navbox}}. All that needs to be done is to delete the word "generic" from the template call, and to delete the line "|style = text-align:left" (as this is the default behaviour in Navbox). Thanks, --CapitalR 16:13, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Done. Cheers. --MZMcBride 20:58, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fix Link

{{editprotected}} Royal Standard is now a dab page the link in the template needs to go to Royal Standard (United Kingdom) --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 23:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks like someone delt with this days ago. I'll mark this as Y Done. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 12:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Historical section

I couldn't care less about displaying the UB on this template or not, but doesn't having the historical section make it appear that NI was only a Home Nation between 1953 and 1972? Obviously not to us, but to a reader who knows nothing about the subject it would. Stu ’Bout ye! 08:06, 17 October 2007 (UTC

I don't think it gives that impression as its a template on flags, but one way to sort that is to add a Link to Northern Ireland in the Home Nation section without any flag, and leave the Ulster Banner in the Historical section for the period 1953-72.--Padraig 12:52, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

How about this:

v • d • e
Flags of the United Kingdom
UK
Constituent countries
Historical
Northern Ireland (1953-1972)
Royal
Ensigns

Which also deals with the point raised in the section below.--Padraig 09:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Huh?

{{editprotected}} Two questions. Firstly, why the use of the sporting terminology "Home Nations" (rather oddly capitalised I note) rather than the more general "countries" (or "constituent countries"). Secondly, why the rather odd ordering - Eng, Wal, Scot. It is not alphabetical, nor in order of size, nor in any other logical order that I can think of. Surely the most logical order would be: Eng, Sco, Wal.

The latter is a minor point, but I consider the use of "Home Nations" as being very odd indeed in this context, especially considering that in most people's minds the term "home nations" is most strongly associated with rugby union, where Ireland (the whole island) is one of the "home nations". --Mais oui! 07:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

If Administrators are going to block the editing of a template, the very least they can deign to do is to respond to queries on the relevant Talk page. Or has somebody blocked this article from editing and then removed it from their Watchlist? Not a very satisfactory situation either way. --Mais oui! 09:28, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I alphabetized England, Scotland, Wales, but I held off on your other edit request. We need to come up with a better link. We cannot use "Constituent countries" because Northern Ireland is a constituent country of the United Kingdom (and arguably also is a "Home Nation", so that term is out the window as well). We need to convey that there are legal restrictions of government use of the Union Jack in Northern Ireland, without conveying that Northern Ireland isn't a constituent country. Any other suggestions on how to rename "Home Nations"?-Andrew c [talk] 14:25, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
United Kingdom of (Great Britain + Northern Ireland) - Northern Ireland = Great Britain? Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:48, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I addressed the Northern Ireland issue in this:
v • d • e
Flags of the United Kingdom
UK
Constituent countries
Historical
Northern Ireland (1953-1972)
Royal
Ensigns
And this will answer the status of each flag *The Union Flags and flags of the United Kingdom, as determined by the British Government.--Padraig 14:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Why isn't Great Britain usable here? This seems to be the most relevant term, according to British Isles (terminology). Note that this page is in the scope of a mediation. -- lucasbfr talk 18:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
The Northern Ireland issue is under mediation. Obviously the template is incorrect just now as the flag and country are not "historic" Astrotrain 19:38, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I think England should be put in historical because it flag ceased to be official in 1707. Who agrees? Then maybe we could start a campaign to remove it from wikipedia. Think of the fun. Biofoundationsoflanguage 17:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the edit protected template due to the fact that the second part of the requested edit is controversial, and currently under mediation, so there is nothing for an admin to change in the current template now. If I am mistaken, feel free to request another protected edit and be specific about what needs to be changed and make sure there is consensus for the change first.-Andrew c [talk] 21:45, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Andrwsc, in the Template:UKFlags, the issue of sports use is easily noted by adding a note on the Ulster Banner in the Historical section, there is no reason for The Ulster Banner to be used in the Constituent countries section.
v • d • e
Flags of the United Kingdom
UK
Constituent countries
Historical
Northern Ireland (1953-1972)Still used for international football, and Commonwealth games
Royal
Ensigns
As shown in this table above.--Padraig 21:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
It is not historical if it used- it's a contradiction. Astrotrain 21:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Can't you guys use another term aside from "historical"? It is still prominently used by some people and organizations. --Howard the Duck 05:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit request

An image was deleted. Please replace Image:Royal Standard of England.svg -> Image:UK Standard.svg -- I. Pankonin (t/c) 00:10, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Y Done — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Green Ensign

I was wondering if i could request the inclusion of the Irish Green Ensign on the page. It's a derivative of the Blue Ensign, and is related to them. I would have included it myself, but i see the page has been protected from editing. RingtailedFox • Talk • Contribs 03:45, 28 February 2008 (UTC)