Talk:UEFA European Football Championship

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Contents 1 ? 2 Terms 3 Nation vs national team 4 "Did not qualify" 5 West Germany or Germany? 6 The final torunament appearances 7 Section about suggested changes 8 1964 Spanish flags 9 Final four classification 10 Requested move 10.1 Support 10.2 Oppose 10.3 Discussion 11 Final tournament appearances ? 12 USSR and Yugo 12.1 General Statistics ???

[edit]  ?

Does anyone know What the "EURO year" comment in the first sentence is about? This means nothing to me. Arthur Holland

It means "EURO 88" or "EURO 2004" --Dryazan 15:15, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

---

The Dutch FA's initials, as seen on the team shirt is KNVB, standing for Koninklijke Nederlandse Voetbal Bond: the Royal NETHERLANDS Football Assocation. That's how I remember. Holland is a region in the Netherlands. --Slumgum 20:24, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Terms

why the change in terms from Winner and Runner up to Champion and Second place, in the table, is this official or just an inconsitency? Philc 0780 23:02, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Winner and Runner-up seem like the more common terms to me, and it would make things more consistent. -- JoelCFC25 20:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nation vs national team

About links for teams and countries, both are labelled the same despite leading to different pages. Would it be a good idea to link all country names to the national teams pages (where it is further described that they represent a certain country), or should they have different labels, i.e. "England" for nation and "England team" for national team? Poulsen 11:26, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the links are okay in context. e.g. Greece hosted the 2004 finals. Greece won the 2004 finals. The only exception is the semi-finals appearances table, which is completely wrong. I can't think of a good reason for including that table anyway.
Slumgum | yap | stalk | 14:57, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I think if talking about a host, then you should link to the nation, if it is the team that won, then it should link to the team. Funkyduncan 17:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Did not qualify"

On various national football team pages, "Did not qualify" is used in the summary record for European Championships for years where the relevant team did not making the final stages. Since, until 1976, only the final four teams "qualified", this gives a misleading impression of lack of success. At least the quarter-finalists should be credited; so what if they were home-and-away fixtures? But for the 1964 tournament, I don't know if there's any easy way to distinguish teams losing in the first round from those losing in the second round. jnestorius^(talk) 10:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

It's easy; you just say "did not qualify; eliminated in the quarterfinal" or "did not qualify; eliminated in the second round". Conscious 10:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] West Germany or Germany?

Why, on the how many time countries have qualified list, are the German and West German qualifications all ranked together while the USSR and Russia ones are seperate? The same for Czechoslovakia/Czech Republic. It dosen't look right just having the German one as the exception. I apoligise though if there was a reason for this but it just look unusual.

Well... under UEFA rules, when a state splits, the one(s) who decided to leave lose all rights and stats to the name they played under. When Germany reunited, it's partially considered that the east merged with the west, rather than the west joining the east; the reunited Germany is considered to have direct continuity from West Germany. The other cases, aren't considered to be directly continuous. The USSR had many non-russian players on their team and Russia is not considered directly continuous from the USSR, and Czechoslovakia was a mutual split therefore neither Slovakia nor the Czechs can claim continuity. Same goes for Socialist Yugoslavia and Federal Yugoslavia. --Hurricane Angel 01:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Well what about when East Germany played against West Germany??? Does that count as whatever amount of goals scored for and against Germany? And does it count as a win or a loss? Or Both? And it's not fair to count them as having two bids under one trophy...

East Germany is counted as defunct, so all of their stats should go under East Germany just as if it is a team that doesnt exist anymore (which it doesn't). Present Germany inherited all the history of West Germany and has it's own history too. So East Germany = East Germany, West + Present Germany = Germany. Treat them as different teams, similar in name. Aheyfromhome 17:24, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The final torunament appearances

Excuse me, could you control the appearances in the final tournament of the national teams? From 1960 to 2004 is : 9 times Germany (5 as West Germany), 7 times Denmark, England, Netherlands, Spain, 6 times France, Italy, Ussr (one as CSI), 5 times Yogoslavia (one as the former Serbia and Montenegro), 4 times Belgium, Portugal, 3 times Czech Republic, Romania, Sweden, Czechoslovakia, 2 times Bulgaaria, Greece, Hungary, Scotland, Switzerland, Russia, Turkey, 1 time Republic of Ireland, Latvia, Norway, Slovenia. For Uefa Euro 2008 are qualified at the moment (october 2006) only the two hosts countries: Austria and Switzerland.

Do not consider qualifications as appearences. In particular for the EFC, since in 1992 the trophy was won by a team that did not qualify (but appeared, of course!).--Panarjedde 16:33, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section about suggested changes

I think we should maybe add a new section about possible changes to the format of the event, since the Scottish FA has lobbied UEFA to expand the tournament to 24 teams (probably to allow Scotland in) Who else thinks this should be documented? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Funkyduncan (talk • contribs) 17:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] 1964 Spanish flags

The Spanish flag in 1964 is not the one pictured. This should be changed.

[edit] Final four classification

With the lack of recent bronze matches it's tricky to sort the teams here. Belgium has a third place from back in the days when they reached a semi-final, lost, and won the bronze game. More recently Portugal has reached the semi-final twice, without being able to play for a 3rd place.

I'm moving Portugal ahead of Belgium, to me two 'semi-finals' where they were unable to play for 3rd/4th is better than one semi-final where they finished 3rd. I think this will remain an area of uncertainty though, and am willing to listen to other views of this.

I agree that 1 bronze > 1 semi-final > 1 fourth, but when there are more semi-finals compared to third places it gets icky. Lejman 14:26, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

2000 UEFA European Football Championship has been renamed UEFA Euro 2000 as the result of a move request.

2004 UEFA European Football Championship has been renamed UEFA Euro 2004 as the result of a move request.

2012 UEFA European Football Championship has been renamed UEFA Euro 2012 as the result of a move request.

[edit] Final tournament appearances ?

Is that including appearances before the semi-finals in the first 5 tournament ( 1960-1976 )--Max Mayr 05:59, 28 September 2007 (UTC) no--Blain Toddi (talk) 18:56, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] USSR and Yugo

USSR is a different thing from Russia.USSR football team was comprised mostly by Ukranians.I think we shouldn't have it's record combined with Russia just like i don't see the reason why Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia are assigned to Czech R. and Serbia. Eagle of Pontus (talk) 15:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

For statistical reasons, UEFA and FIFA like keeping continuity. However, it leads to ridiculous claims such as saying that Serbia's FA was formed in 1919, when it was Yugoslavia's that was formed then. The records should obviously be split apart, as all countries equally inherit the football history of now defunct federations. --Thewanderer (talk) 22:58, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with both comments, but what about Germany? I think Germany should continue to inherit West Germany's record (note that East Germany never qualified); as Germany is a unification, rather than a split. - MTC (talk) 07:10, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree with you about Germany.I think that in Yugo USSR and Czrch'vakia we can put the records of these defunct countries with the note that they are defunct indeed.Serbia shall have it's own record Croatia the same Ukraine and Russia and so on.Because if USSR record is inherited to Russia and Ukraine then why not to Lithuania or Estonia if you know what i mean.The only exception shall be to Serbia and Montenegro.I think that Serbia shall awarded the 1994 onward results of the team and not Montenegro for obvious reasons. Eagle of Pontus (talk) 10:24, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see those "obvious reasons", why should all of FR Yugoslavia/Serbia & Montenegro's results be given to Serbia? That's inconsistent with the rest of what you're saying. Besides, Serbia haven't qualfied for a European Championship yet (after only one attempt), so FR Yugoslavia or Serbia & Montenegro should be listed at least until Serbia qualify, if not afterwards too. - MTC (talk) 10:47, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

What's inconsistent.Serbia Montenegro team was 9 Serbian players and 2 Montenegrins.It can't be applied to the previous occasions and it's far too obvious Eagle of Pontus (talk) 11:04, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Considering Serbia to have all of Serbia & Montenegro's records is no different to giving all of Czechoslovakia's records to the Czech Republic. That's what's inconsistent. - MTC (talk) 11:28, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I thought Wikipedia was supposed to be an encyclopedia. It's fine and dandy to debate FIFA's decisions but surely misrepresenting the facts just because we don't agree is some sort of vandalism. Serbia have the Yugoslav record, Russia has the USSR record, the Czechs have the Czechoslovakia records, etc. We might not like some of it, but unless FIFA change their minds we can't put anything else. I'd rather as well change the Kazak team's page to say they're in the AFC, purely because 'I disagree' with them being in UEFA. ;-) Aheyfromhome (talk) 19:31, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The fact that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a UEFA fansite is exactly why we shouldn't just repeat whatever UEFA says. UEFA and FIFA have handed these records to "successor" countries. Does that mean that Serbia hosted Euro 76? Or that Russia won Euro 1960? Certainly not. Wikipedia should report reliable, verifiable info. There should be a mention of exchanges of records between countries, but we shouldn't pretend that these records are indicative of what actually happened. --Thewanderer (talk) 19:57, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) We are talking here about the European Championship, which is organized by UEFA and has nothing to do with FIFA. It has been shown that FIFA give USSR's record to Russia, but do UEFA?

Also, this is completely different to saying Kazakhstan are currently in AFC, as that would be an incorrect statement, whereas presenting USSR separately from Russia in the table is not incorrect at all. - MTC (talk) 19:59, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

As mentioned in the FIFA statutes, confederations cannot organize competitions (or exist) without the allowance of FIFA. Infact the statutes as a whole give an idea of the ultimate power FIFA has in international football even thought they give confederations lots of free reign (e.g. to organise competitions between the associations which they represent). And just because the associations relevant to this debate are under the UEFA umbrella doesnt subtract from the fact that they are ultimately registered under FIFA.

As such IMO I'd go with what the FIFA website says rather than the UEFA one, especially as the FIFA website has useful foundation and affilation years for associations (which can also show who had to reapply for membership after splits and who didn't e.g. Montengro's case). When UEFA and FIFA agree (e.g. Serbia has the Yugoslav record and Montenegro do not) then it's much simpler. But as I say, I'd go for FIFA's opinion if things aren't clear.

P.S. Whether presenting USSR separately from Russia in the table is incorrect at all or not is exactly what we're discussing. FIFA seem to think that giving them separate records would be an "incorrect statement".

P.P.S Slip of the wrist before about the Czechs having the Czechoslovakian records. :-) Aheyfromhome (talk) 00:27, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Here's the recent release by UEFA [8], if you're interested. I think a good compromise is having both team names displayed in the combined record:  USSR /  Russia,  Czechoslovakia /  Czech Republic, etc. Sometimes I wonder whether the application of political research into footballing domains is some sort of original research; for example, saying that the last game of the Yugoslavia national football team was played in 1992, which quite honestly, contradicts with the fact that "Yugoslavia" played many games in the mid-1990s. Chanheigeorge (talk) 02:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Or that Yugoslavia only qualified for 4 Euros, where they also made a 5th appearance in 2000 as "Yugoslavia", which somehow, people decide that it should not be counted to Yugoslavia ("Yugoslavia" does not equal Yugoslavia!!!), but should be counted to Serbia (Serbia equal to Serbia & Montenegro equal to "Yugoslavia"!!!). Chanheigeorge (talk) 02:54, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

This is not really the place for history lessons, but here I go anyway... The Kingdom of Yugoslavia and the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was one state which existed from 1918 to 1992. In 1992 Yugoslavia dissolved into five countries, one of which happened to take the name of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FR Yugoslavia). Legally, it was not considered successor to the original state federation, despite taking the same name. Giving Yugoslavia's records to FR Yugoslavia or to Serbia just doesn't make sense and does an injustice to the other countries who had to "start from scratch" despite sharing in the same football history.

Also, FR Yugoslavia's records are usually given to Serbia because tiny Montenegro produced far fewer players and many, if not most, were also ethnic Serbs. --Thewanderer (talk) 03:42, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I know history and politics (I edited this), but why is it applicable to these records? For the common fan, Yugoslavia qualified for five Euros. For FIFA and UEFA, Yugoslavia qualified for five Euros. Look at the records at any major publications, websites, news sources, and Yugoslavia qualified for five Euros. So why do we have to keep insisting that this "Yugoslavia" does not equal to that "Yugoslavia", which is contradictory to common belief (however we may think this belief is "incorrect"), and say that Yugoslavia qualified for four Euros. Don't you think this is WP:OR? Chanheigeorge (talk) 06:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

To reiterate:

• The UN does not consider FR Yugoslavia to be the successor of SFR Yugoslavia; that's fact.
• The UN does not consider FR Yugoslavia to be the successor of SFR Yugoslavia, so we should not count 2000 Yugoslavia NT's record to that of the original Yugoslavia NT; that's WP:OR, because I've yet to read any outside sources that say this. Chanheigeorge (talk) 06:52, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The history is important because it is only foreign sources which insist on this continuity (despite not understanding the actual situation). Regional (former Yugoslav) sources always differentiate between the two states, except for Serbia which occasionally tries to "steal" Yugoslav history for its own benefit. As far as I know, WP:NPOV is a core policy as well and some sort of neutral compromise has to be made.--Thewanderer (talk) 13:36, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Lets not overkill this. Either we go with what UEFA say or what FIFA say or we come up with Wikipedia's own opinion. Either way lets try to keep FIFA's excellent idea of seperating politics from football: these are successor FA's we're talking about, not successor countries. Aheyfromhome (talk) 14:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm okay with taking many sources (including FIFA and UEFA, international, local) and coming up with articles that cover the many viewpoints. What I have a problem with the current way of articles such as Yugoslavia national football team and this, which claims the 2000 qualification of "Yugoslavia" cannot be counted towards Yugoslavia but can be counted towards Serbia (I pity the Montenegrins, probably there's not enough of their editors here) is that it is written in a totally biased way towards one viewpoint, which I have a suspicion, is a viewpoint dreamed up by some Wikipedians. Chanheigeorge (talk) 18:59, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Combining the achievements of the original FAs (e.g. USSR or Yugoslavia) and the successor FAs (e.g. Russia or Serbia) is wrong and is in fact political. Deciding on successor FAs is very much a political decision. For example, the USSR squad for the Euro 1988 final against the Netherlands consisted of 10 Ukrainians, 2 Russians, 2 Buelorussians, 1 Georgian and 1 Lithuanian uefa.com. Seeing the achievement of that team included in the record of Russia is wrong and political. The achievements of the original FAs should stay with the original FAs. Dkua (talk) 19:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] General Statistics ???

This is pointless imo. I think it's meaningless that we include a table based on points/wins etc. as it clearly is advantageous to the teams that have competed in more euros than others. Note that I am NOT saying that the 'successful national teams' table, that lists teams by number of finals wins, 2nd place finishes, etc should be removed on the arguement that the more finals a country makes, the more changes they have had to win it. I hope the distinction is clear between the two. If someone _really_ wanted to have a general stats section like this, maybe take the total points (currently listed on the table) and divide this by games played, and sort the teams by this decimal number (2.634 or whatever). I think this would be a much more meaningful statistic. I have kept the stats table there to get others; opinions on this. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gresszilla (talk • contribs) 10:06, 9 March 2008 (UTC)