Talk:UEFA Cup records and statistics

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[edit] Debate

This article treats the Inter-City Fairs Cup and the UEFA Cup as though they were the same competition. However, although the latter replaced the former, it was in fact completely different, organised by a different organisation and with entirely different qualification criteria. As such, the article seems to be in need of significant reworking to remove the years of the Fairs Cup.

Any thoughts?

--Bcnviajero 13:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, yes it's confusing and should be changed, or at least noted. I would think that removing all Inter-City Fairs info would be best. aLii 14:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

In UEFA site there does not include Inter-Cities Fairs Cup , So UEFA Cup is not Inter-Cities Fairs Cup.Saudi9999 09:16, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


Both records are intertwined as its its predeccesor, offcial records state this!

O.k. Can you give us source of what you said???Saudi9999 10:17, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

all throughout its history they have been lumped together, official records state both records together including football history books, it's a predecessor to the uefa cup and that is fact. Simple as that. It has been for 30 odd years now and still is lumped together. Even when mentioning Spain or Italy's european trophy haul on commentary, it says the tally of euro. trophies won with the fairs cup taken into account, how can anyone not count it as a european trophy is beyond me, it is in every team's honours list as a major european trophy won and in every book, including skysports 2005/2006 football book. All the indications lead to the fairs cup being included, simple as that. There is no two ways about it.

Does it look like i can give you a source, no obviously not! it is common knowledge they are lumped together, it's a predecessor for god sake what don't you understand?! it proceded it! For 30 odd years they have been lumped together, until you came along with your silly internet crusade!


Please , Be polite when you talking. Did you see this tip before writing ((This is a talk page. Please respect the talk page guidelines, and remember to sign your posts using four tildes (~ ~ ~ ~).)) to know who you are ???!! Saudi9999 15:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

"This article treats the Inter-City Fairs Cup and the UEFA Cup as though they were the same competition. However, although the latter replaced the former, it was in fact completely different, organised by a different organisation and with entirely different qualification criteria. As such, the article seems to be in need of significant reworking to remove the years of the Fairs Cup. --Bcnviajero 13:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)"

Exactly. This is the UEFA Cup finals article. Therefore I'm requesting user Fadiga09 to stop adding non-Uefa results (ie the Fairs Cup) per UEFA themselves. [1], [2]. Thanks. BestEditorEver 08:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Compeltely different? no they weren't they just replaced eachother, it is common knowledge that the records are combined. Therefore i am requesting BestEverEditor to stop reverting and being a plonker.

Thanks kindly! Fadiga09 17:32, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

UEFA has not sanctioned the Fairs Cup and their results have no place in this article. It was a different tournament, with a different organizer and a different setup. I'll just refer to the refs I posted in my previous comment. BestEditorEver 09:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Does it matter about UEFA? it was the predeccessor to the uefa cup and it was the same tournament and set-up you'll find.

30 odd years of precedence is good enough for me and there's a reason it has been on wikipedia for years, until you started editing all over the shop!

You are still yet to source those 30 years of precedent. In any case, official Uefa regulations should be clear. -- BestEditorEver 10:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

http://www.uefa.com/Competitions/uefacup/History/index.html, stick that where the sun don't shine.

I QUOTE:

Forerunner

This forerunner to the UEFA Cup, the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup, was founded on 18 April 1955, two weeks after the founding of the European Champion Clubs’ Cup. The first Fairs Cup involved teams from Barcelona, Basle, Birmingham, Copenhagen, Frankfurt, Lausanne, Leipzig, London, Milan and Zagreb. The original tournament lasted three years, with matches timed to coincide with trade fairs. Barcelona, using players purely from FC Barcelona, beat a London representative side 8-2 on aggregate in the final.


Name change

The fifth of these was in 1971/72, won by Tottenham Hotspur FC, and the first to be known as the UEFA Cup. The change of name was recognition of the fact the competition was now run by UEFA and no longer associated with the trade fairs. During the 1970s German, Dutch, Belgian and Swedish sides began to successfully compete with the English and between 1968 and 1984 only one team from the south – Juventus FC in 1977 – managed to disrupt the dominance of the northern Europeans.

"forerunner" "name change", wonder what these words mean. (Fadiga09 19:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC))

Yes, Uefa Cup is the follow-up from the Fairs. That's rather obvious. But, UEFA does not recognize the Fairs results as part of UEFA competition [3],[4]. You're citing a ref that basically backs my point. UEFA.com ([5]) is only listing the UEFA Cup winners on the left and not the Fairs Cup. Their results are not part of UEFA statistics and should therefore not be included in this article describing... UEFA statistics -- BestEditorEver 10:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


The wording of "name change" basically in anything in life means something the same being name changed, it basically means it was the same thing. What do you think "name change" means? The Premiership was name changed form the Old First Division, same as the Champions League changed name from the European Cup?

That source proves me point. FACT. (Fadiga09 17:34, 19 August 2007 (UTC))

They changed name, and......... do not consider the Fais results part of clubs' European records. My ref wins. -- BestEditorEver 15:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Changing name means it was the same tournament, which meanss the results are related. As in anything that is "changed name" in anything in life. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fadiga09 (talk • contribs) 17:11, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Protection

Due to the long-running edit war, I have protected this article and three others where the same UEFA Cup/ Fairs Cup dispute is occurring. Protection is not an endorsement of the current version (see m:The Wrong Version). As for all four articles the dispute is identical, I suggest discussion ought to take place on one page to help keep track. Talk:European football records seems the most suitable place, as there is already some discussion on the matter there. Oldelpaso 18:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I've reprotected the article due to the continued edit warring. Work it out here on the talk page. Dreadstar † 20:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Consensus has already ruled, i'm afaid. Check the European football records talk page, revert please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadiga09 (talk • contribs) 22:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

What dont you understand Dreadster, all the explanations, discussing and EVENTUAL ruling is in the talk page of the European football records page, do you not understand English. There was countless weeks of arguing about the fairs cup then and it was finally agreed that it would be included, saudi999 obviously hasn'ta a clue. So i suggest you go back and read the talk page of the EUROPEAN FOOTBALL RECORDS page and see all the arguing and eventual ruling, then revert it back. WHY HAVE ANOTHER POLL WHEN IT WAS ALREADY DECIDED. Now please revert. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadiga09 (talk • contribs) 18:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

This page European football records is about all offical and unoffical European football. But page about UEFA Cup is about offical cup that orgnized by The UEFA, so this page is only talk about the offical one as we decide in EUROPEAN FOOTBALL RECORDS talk page.--Saudi9999 06:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

No, you are wrong, again! Look at that talk page, the admin CLEARLY STATES the argument that was won by us (me and others) was for all the uefa cup pages and European football records, go back and look at that talk page.

I quote "This is survey to help gauge the degree of consensus on the subject of the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup and UEFA Cup. Should the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup results be integrated with UEFA Cup's on the following articles: UEFA Cup, UEFA Cup records and statistics, UEFA Cup finals, European football records?"

If you want to present consensus for changes to an article, it should be done on that article's talk page. In other words, get it done here instead of vaguely pointing to some other article's talk page. And please start signing your posts. Dreadstar † 20:48, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I did suggest centralising the discussion, as the same dispute was happening in multiple places, though the amount of conflict on that talk page and fact that edit warring has continued suggests that attempt was not an overwhelming success. If this article is still being edit-warred over then protection may well be appropriate. PS: the poll was initiated by User:BestEditorEver, not me. Oldelpaso 22:04, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Good idea in a multi-article dispute where the subjects are all closely connected. Should probably add an exact link to the consensus discussion on each affected page, if not the whole or appropriate segments being copied after the discussion is closed. I wouldn't want new editors to have to hunt for the prior consensus, while enduring verbal assaults for not following it...;) Dreadstar † 00:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Or better yet, create a subpage with links to it on all the article's talk pages, that way it doesn't get mixed up in the general discussion about any one single article. Perhaps that should be done now, create subpage, copy paste the consensus discussion, then provide links at the top of each talk page or some place highly visible. In any case, I'm not quite ready to unprotect this article just yet. When I'm convinced the edit warring is over, I'll unprotect. Dreadstar † 17:55, 16 November 2007 (UTC)