Talk:UEFA Cup

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June 6, 2006

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Should the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup winners be added to this article, or should there be a new article on this?

[edit] Club badges

I've reverted the addition of national flags and club badges to the table of finalists, because:

The club badges generally possess white, not transparent backgrounds and look quite ugly on the blue background.
Because only some clubs have their badges on wikipedia (aside - is this OK copyright-wise?) it looks weird when mixed up with national flags, as if clubs are playing against nations.
Some badges are wrong - e.g. the modern-day Leeds United badge, which was used on this page, is not the same was the one the club used in the 1960s [1]. There may be other examples too.

Qwghlm 14:02, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

I honestly don't see a problem with club badges or national flags being displayed, in an international competition it seems obvious to show which country the clubs came from, changing the format of this display from that of the champions league doesn't make any sense. But in answer to the specific questions above;

Deleting all the badges because they do not possess transparent backgrounds was uncalled for, a request for someone to change the badge type would have been more prudent. If that was not possible the badges should have been left as they are, not everyone finds them ugly.
The emblems and logos of the clubs are used in their individual pages, they can be used under the 'fair use' system. It shouldn't pose any problem.
It seems logical to use the badges that were present at the time the team was playing, in a similar way to the flag of yugoslavia is being used when noting red star belgrade's victory in the champions league.

The only real issue is whether club badges and/or national flags should be used. The champions league format uses just the national flags and i suggest following its example (it'll also solve many of the problems discussed above). The logos and history of any logos can easily be included in the individual club pages. If anyone wants to replace the national flags in line with the champions league page go ahead.

Fine, I wasn't arguing against badges/flags per se, just that as they stood they looked ugly. National flags like the UEFA Champions League page would be fine to put in, in my opinion. Qwghlm 21:54, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Re-reading my post i might have come across as being a bit too aggressive, i didn't mean to be.

[edit] Qualification

Is it possible to add the exact qualifying data for a country from the UEFA ranking ? Thank you

[edit] Past Winners

Why is there no table of past winners as per all of the other football tournament articles? I know there is a past finals list, but this is not quite what I mean, and why is it on a different page anyway, when it is far more fundemental to the article than alot of the other information on here. Philc _T^E_C^I 22:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Completely wrong

This article is completely wrong, the Fairs Cup and the UEFA Cup are completely different, chech UEFA's official website to see this (http://www.uefa.com/Competitions/uefacup/History/index.html). As an example, check Barcelona's official trophy count (http://www.uefa.com/footballEurope/Club=50080/competition=1/index.html). As you can see, there are no UEFA Cups, nor Fairs Cup, as this was an unofficial competition. I think the article should be completely changed and only talk about the UEFA Cup. Then another one on the Fairs Cup could be done. Robert King.

[edit] Image Caption review

The captions in this article have been reviewed and meet the criteria for good captions.

--Epolk 16:46, 25 May 2006 (UTC) - (Writing Captions WikiProject)

15:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)15:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)15:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)15:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)15:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)15:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)15:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)~

I agree with the above, the competitions are different and listing Fairs Cup winners on the UEFA cup entry only serves to confuse.

[edit] To do list

(copied from article improvement drive nom) This article was submitted to FAC last week, but isn't really ready yet. Some of the objections included:

Too list-heavy / some of the lists need converting to prose
- Most lists moved to UEFA Cup records and statistics. Conscious 07:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Insufficient lead
Too short
"Trivia" section should not be there
- Moved out. Conscious 16:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Tone too informal.

Oldelpaso 16:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It'd be good to add something about significance of the tournament. Conscious 16:32, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
IMO the description of English qualification is too long. Conscious 16:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, qualification should be described in a manner which isn't country specific. Oldelpaso 19:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fairs Cup / UEFA Cup

Is it really fair to say that the Fairs Cup was "renamed" the UEFA Cup? It seems to be that the UEFA Cup is treated as a new competition, REPLACING the Fairs Cup. - fchd 17:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It's the official version. See [2], specifically "Name change" section. Conscious 19:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Qualification Information

"the UEFA Administration may, at the request of the association of the club concerned, admit this club to the current UEFA Cup competition. Its participation will not be at the expense of the contingent of its association."

Are you sure this is correct because I know that for the Champions League, for example, the winner of the cup will get into the competition along with the team that qualified for the last place in the cup. If having both clubs in the competition causes too many clubs from the same country to be in the competition then the holder of the cup will get in ahead of the last qualifying club (the one who finished the lowest out of all the clubs that qualified). Too many clubs, for the Champions League for example, is five clubs (four is the max and therefore a problem is created when a club outside the top four wins the Champions League and UEFA has recently changed their rules to completely address this sort of situation after the Liverpool-Everton debacle last year). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yonatanh (talk • contribs)

[edit] ==I need an aswer quicly pls==

UEFA Cup 2005/06 – won by Sevilla

Here's the answer. Conscious 16:06, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Club 'rankings'

excuse me for being a liverpool fan and thinking that since liverpool hvave been to 3 UEFA cup finals and lost none, should be ranked higher than Juventus whoe despite being to 6 finals, have lost half of them. What is success anyway? Isnt it not defined principally by winning! Juventus obviously have a high failure rate in UEFA Cup finals and should not be called 'the most successful club in UEFA cup history' on the baisis of finishing second best 3 times! Who are more successful at uefa cup finals, Liverpool 3 out of 3 or Juventus 3 out of 6 'finals'? If this is not just about the final game itself and the whole tournament, then it gets even more complicated, we may need to start looking at all results, games played, won, tied and lost, goals scored and conceded etc like a league.

Success is measured by winning and when teams are tied for number of wins, how can failur to win and finishing second best, be placed above not loosing at all? granted we need to give credit to Juventus for getting to the final the most times but, getting to the final is not succcess, winning it is. Failing to win is failure, its as good as getting knocked out in earlier rounds!

I agree with you. Being a defeated finalist means nothing, only winning does and Liverpool have a perfect record in finals compared to Juventus, plus they both have the same amount of trophies. Having a section called "Most Successful Club" is completely subjective in this regard.--Largo1965 15:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

No, reaching the final is much better than losing in the first round, both for the fans and financially. I'm pretty sure Liverpool considers last years Champions League campaign a success despite losing in the finals. It's not like liverpool only tried 3 times, they just didn't make it to the finals the other times. In short: 3 finals victories + 3 finals losses > 3 finals victories + 3 first round losses. 89.246.20.77 11:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

It says "Most succesful club", that means one club. Juventus have been won the Title 3 times just like Inter, Barca , etc but Juventus have also been to the finals 6 times in total while Barca and Inter have only been to 4 in total. I can see if Barca, Liverpool and Inter have been to the finals 6 times, yes then put them in the list but since Juventus have these 3 other appearances this makes them the most Successful club. I am not a fan of the English league or the Italian league, so I do consider my self un-biased.

[edit] Champions League

Neither here not at UEFA Champions League have I found a concise explanation of the difference between the two. The other article simply says "not to be confused with the UEFA Cup". Could someone add a brief explanation please. 172.173.125.174 12:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

They're two different competitions, one for teams who finished top or very high in their national domestic league the previous year, and another one for teams who didn't do as well, but still finished near the top or won a domestic cup; if you're American, think of it as being similar to the difference between the NCAA March Madness basketball tournament and the NIT. 84.92.8.221 14:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] One Club Per City Rule

The Fairs Cup article mentions that the one club per city rule was abolished in the early 60s when Edinburgh and Barcelona had two teams in the competition, however, the UEFA Cup article states that the rule was in effect until 1975 when Everton challenged it. I also know that Clyde FC were prevented from competing in the 1967 Fairs Cup because of this rule. So my question is, does anyone know when the rule would have been reinstated or perhaps it wasn't an official rule until some time after the early 60s?--Largo1965 15:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UEFA Cup title-holder

Are there any cases in which the UEFA Cup title-holder will not start in the first round proper of the UEFA Cup? --88.77.227.25 12:27, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

The most frequent case is that the holders qualify for the Champions League. Conscious 12:29, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Are there any other cases in which the UEFA Cup title-holder will not start in the first round proper of the UEFA Cup? --88.77.227.25 12:31, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

The club may be disqualified, cease to exist, or refuse to participate. Conscious 20:16, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Protection

Due to the long-running edit war, I have protected this article and three others where the same UEFA Cup/ Fairs Cup dispute is occurring. Protection is not an endorsement of the current version (see m:The Wrong Version). As for all four articles the dispute is identical, I suggest discussion ought to take place on one page to help keep track. Talk:European football records seems the most suitable place, as there is already some discussion on the matter there. Oldelpaso 18:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Finals Tables

Useful table showing the finals but the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup Finals aren't UEFA Cup, they ought to be removed like http://www.footballdatabase.com/index.php?page=competition&Id=18&type=ICLUB&ln=UEFA_Cup I'd do it myself but the article's protected. StuartFreeloader 12:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Qualification Possibilties

What if Bayern Munich won the uefa cup and the bundisliga? would they be placed in the uefa cup or uefa champions league. Whould the losing finalist be placed in the First Round? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.245.234.148 (talk) 02:05, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

They would be placed in the Champions' League as the German champions, with the first round U.E.F.A. Cup berth going to the U.E.F.A. Cup runner-up, I believe. Heracles2008 (talk) 04:43, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Totally incorrect statement

"While the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup is considered a pre-cursor to the UEFA Cup for records purposes..."

This is factually incorrect, and I recommend that it should be removed. U.E.F.A. itself specifies that the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup does not count as part of a club's U.E.F.A. record, nor is to count for "records purposes". I propose that this erroneous statement should be removed, and that the list of most successful clubs be updated to exclude F.C. Barcelona (who have never won the U.E.F.A. Cup) and Valencia C.F.(who have only won the U.E.F.A. Cup once) - their Fairs Cup wins do not count as U.E.F.A. Cup wins! Heracles2008 (talk) 04:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Inter-Cities Fairs Cup was a forerunner to UEFA Cup, but that doesn't mean they are the same, mostly because UEFA Cup is run by UEFA and Inter-Cities Fairs Cup weren't. UEFA Cup records don't include Inter-Cities Fairs Cup winners, as show here in the official site.--ClaudioMB (talk) 06:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree whith you (Heracles and Claudio). Fairs Cup is not recognised as official to UEFA, and it´s a big mistake to mix the Fairs Cup records with the Uefa Cup records. I think that it´s a supporters inventions, who have interest in remake history... This is an encyclopedia...

--Ultracanalla (talk) 22:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

As i said, it's already been discussed and consensus ruled For it's inclusion, and the matter was settled.

i've already proven and showed numerous statements proving it was just a name change from uefa.com and other sources. Here is the main source: I QUOTE FROM THE OFFICIAL SITE http://www.uefa.com/Competitions/uefacup/History/index.html

"Name change

The was in 1971/72, won by Tottenham Hotspur FC, and the first to be known as the UEFA Cup. The change of name was recognition of the fact the competition was now run by UEFA and no longer associated with the trade fairs" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadiga09 (talk • contribs) 12:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I don´t deni that Fais Cup is the Uefa Cups precursor, this MUST figure in the article, I don´t say the opposite thing. But we can´t even deni that one was unofficial (Fais Cup) and the other IS official (Uefa Cup). It´s a terrible mistake to mixing both tournaments in one article. ¿Why doesn´t UEFA.com includes Fairs Cup champions into the Uefa Cups records? [3] Answer that, please. I answer: because there were two different tournaments. One official and the oter UNOFFICIAL. This is an encyclopedia!

--Ultracanalla (talk) 20:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

We've been through this a number of times over the years - virtually all statistical works treat the Fairs Cup and the UEFA Cup as basically the same, just a change of name. The fact that UEFA took over running it at the same time does not make it a different competition. UEFA.com is not a secondary source. - fchd (talk) 20:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

NO no. If you read carefully, the uefa.com says that many rules werw changing with the years... ¿A Uefa Cup with London XI? ¿What club is that? ¿A Uefa Cup that lasts two or three years? ¿A cup were you have to live in a city with fairs to participate? ¿Which is the simil? One cup was finished and another came to replace with the Uefa´s support. It´s the real history. ¿Why doesn´t Uefa include the Fairs cup in the Uefa Cups records, and you do that? Fairs Cup records by a hand and Uefa Cups records by the other. I Think that would be correct.

--Ultracanalla (talk) 20:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

So there were some rule changes over the years. Most of the ones you pick up on where changed years before the competition changed name. There was no difference between the last Fairs Cup and the first UEFA Cup other than the change of name. - fchd (talk) 12:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I think fchd has hit the nail on the head, firstly he's right virtually all statisical records pair both comps together, i recall i mentioned several in another discussion page. UEFA took over the competition in 1971 and changed the name, and your incorrect none of the fairs cup seasons lasted 2 to 3 years, that's false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadiga09 (talk • contribs) 21:06, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

1)The first Fairs Cup lasted 3 years:[4] and the second two: [5]

2)¿Why don´t we accept finally the Uefa´s official statistics? The Fairs Cup by one hand, with all its champions, and the Uefa cup by the other with all its champions... It´s so simple... Nobody is saying that Fairs Cup is not the precursor of Uefa Cup. I think that it´s real, and it MUST figure in all the articles related with Uefa Cup. But it´s a different thing to say that both cups are the same thing. If we see that one is official and the other in not considered by the "mother institution of european football", and this insitution doesn´t include on the "palmares" (record) of Uefa Cup, it´s all said and all the words are useless... If they were the same, UEFA should have made a table as Fadiga says. But it doesn´t figure neither in Uefa.com nor in Rsssf.com [6] and [7].

Thanks to Saudi for your cooperation.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ultracanalla (talk • contribs) 23:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The only record that counts is the official one, from UEFA. As anyone can see in the UEFA site, they only consider winners from 1971-72 season. That excludes Fairs Cup winners (before 1971-72). So, anyone who defends the inclusion of Fairs Cup could show an official record including it? --ClaudioMB (talk) 05:39, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Look above at my link which proves uefa.com saying it was just a "name change" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadiga09 (talk • contribs) 12:45, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, I wouldn't disagree that the only difference between the last Fairs Cup and the first UEFA Cup was the name, but I would object to clubs' victories in each competition being listed together. For example, Valencia won two Fairs Cups and one UEFA Cup, not three UEFA Cups. The two competitions should be listed separately. – Pee Jay 13:08, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Yet you were keen to have the Premier League 2006-07 article show as Manchester United's 17th (or 18th or whatever) title when there is at least as much in common between the Fairs Cup and the UEFA Cup and the Premier League/Football League. - fchd (talk) 13:37, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Am I not allowed to change my opinion on things? At the minute, I would probably say that the Premier League articles should all be changed to reflect the fact that the Premier League was established as a totally separate competition from the Football League. – Pee Jay 13:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

As it says it's just for record purposes why they are put together, it gets described as "3 UEFA CUPS" because the Int. C Cup is defunct now, and as it has been re-named to the UEFA Cup it gets classed as 3 UEFA Cup's. That's all it is, as it's been said many times before for record purposes the records are collated and have been for years, to suggest there's some supporter bias is ludicrous, this discussion renders my team in no way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadiga09 (talk • contribs) 13:21, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

You are actually in favour of keeping seperate records for the Premier League and Football League? That's laughable, which makes your opinion on this totally defunct. That's going way too far actually having seperate records, having Man Utd top with 9. Everyone and i mean everyone collates the English records. User:Fadiga09 User talk:Fadiga09 13:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

No, that actually makes sense. The Football League continues as an organisation. All you need to do is to watch 15 minutes of Sky Sports to see that according to them football only started in 1992! - fchd (talk) 14:05, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

My opinion is defunct? What the hell does that even mean? The Premier League was founded as a completely separate entity from the Football League, so why should their records be listed together? As far as I am concerned, Liverpool hold the record for the most Football League titles, as well as the most English titles, but Manchester United hold the record for the most Premier League titles, and are in second place with regard to overall top flight titles. Anyway, this is beside the point. The Fairs Cup was not, is not and never will be the same as the UEFA Cup. The UEFA Cup is a different competition, but it is the continuation of the Fairs Cup in everything but name. – Pee Jay 14:53, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

As you say yourself it is the continuation of the Fairs cup, it changed its name because of a different commitee taking over the competition, and it is common practice to collate the results, i really have nothing new to add, i said everything i had to say when the voting was taking place couple of months ago and now. User:Fadiga09 User talk:Fadiga09 15:11, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

So technically, when the Fairs Cup was replaced by the UEFA Cup, the Fairs Cup was discontinued, and a new competition with the same structure was established by UEFA. As I said before, they are two separate competitions run by two separate organisations. Effectively, the UEFA Cup is only the "spiritual" son of the Fairs Cup. – Pee Jay 15:36, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Completely agree whith PeeJay2K3. The UEFA Cup is only the "spiritual" son of the Fairs Cup. Don´t start to put thoughts or feelings on the articles. This is a serious encyclopedia and if the UEFA separates those competitions officially, we all MUST follow this separation. We are not here to "interpretate" or "codificate" what institutions say. We are here to include all the official things. And Fairs Cup is not official by Uefa and not figures at their records as UEFA Cup.

--Ultracanalla (talk) 19:40, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, for those who believe that Fairs Cup winners are UEFA Cup winners, look the [official UEFA Cup site] to see the records. It's not a matter of consensus, it's a matter of source, there are no source for that. If the owner of UEFA Cup doesn't consider them as UEFA Cup winners, they are not. It doesn't matter what Wikipedia editors think. If there are other non official sites considering them as UEFA Cup winners, that could be explain in the article. So, please, stop adding them as UEFA Cup winners.--ClaudioMB (talk) 20:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, it was just a name change and the comepetitions are the same, so i suggest you stop deleting them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadiga09 (talk • contribs) 21:24, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Nice work backing up your statement there, mate. By the way, that last bit sounded a bit like a threat there. Anyway, most of the evidence supports the fact that the UEFA Cup and the Fairs Cup are two different, yet linked, competitions. – Pee Jay 21:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Fadiga09, before you accuse anyone of doing anything, please, check the article's history. As you can see, I was not the one who deleted them. This discussion didn't finish yet, so, any editing about this on the article will just trigger a editing war. Also, I shouldn't have asked to stop adding Fairs cup there, because this discussion started with them already there. --ClaudioMB (talk) 03:49, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Seems like there's bias involved here, i wasn't the one who first "suggest someone stop adding them" and i'm not the only one edit warring here, don't think i should be seen as the bad guy here, seeing as you guys are going against what this was, seeing as the fairs cup as far as i know has been part of the uefa cup's articles ever since wikipedia began. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadiga09 (talk • contribs) 17:07, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

It's not a matter of being against of what it was before. It's a matter to fix a mistake in the article. I consider that Fairs Cup was the base to UEFA Cup but not the same cup, because Fairs Cup and UEFA Cup have different owners, and the owner of UEFA cup doesn't consider the records of Fairs Cup.

Now, compare the records from UEFA Cup with the records from Champions League. Champions League's records consider the time it was call European Cup, even though UEFA was not the owner of the tournament. So, why they don't consider Fairs Cup years? Another example, Premier League doesn't consider the previous years of English first division.

This article is not about an informal event that some people believe on some thing and others believe on a different thing, it's about a formal event, with formal records. So, please, show facts, show source to defend that Fairs Cup is UEFA Cup.

By the way, the article right now is ambiguous. Shows that UEFA cup was funded in 1971, states that "It began in 1971 and replaced the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup." and "The UEFA Cup was first played in the season 1971-72, with English team Tottenham Hotspur F.C. being the first winner", but on "Most successful club", it considers Fairs Cup winners.

--ClaudioMB (talk) 19:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I think this matter won´t be fixed in this discussion. Fadiga doesn´t want to ear or see the official way that UEFA shows. He bases in "thoughts" or "feelings" and not with the common sense. I also I consider that Fairs Cup was the base to UEFA Cup, but NOT the same cup, because Fairs Cup and UEFA Cup have DIFFERENT owners, and the owner of UEFA cup doesn't consider the records of Fairs Cup. It´s so simple... I think that we should call some "wikipedia´s authorities" to this discussion, because it hasn´t end... The 6-3 votation taht Fadiga talks (I didn´t see where it is) doesn´t represent a masive opinion, and I think that is not valious... I don´t know how can we fix this problem.

Bye, --Ultracanalla (talk) 20:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'll give my input as an "authority" (I'm an admin and a member of WP:FOOTY): fchd/Fadiga09 are right; the Fairs Cup and UEFA cup are commonly grouped as one competition for the purposes of record keeping. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 19:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Your opinion is very welcome, but, here, everyone's opinion has the same value. So, please, don't try to disrupt this discussion trying to put yourself in a superior position. Please, focus in the discussion. About your opinion that they "are commonly grouped as one competition for the purposes of record keeping", that is based on what? You need a source for that. I already asked for those who thinks like you to show a source for their positions, but, so far, nobody was capable to bring it. This article is not about what Wikipedia community thinks about UEFA Cup. This is an encyclopedia, and any information needs a source. This should be a very simple matter: the source says "A", then Wikipedia also should say "A". For those that don't agree with "A", they should write an email to UEFA and tell them they are wrong about their own records. Who knows? Maybe they are. If they change their records, I'll be the first to defend Wikipedia to follow them.--ClaudioMB (talk) 21:13, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm clearly not trying to disrupt the discussion - Ultracanalla noted above that (s)he thought that "wikipedia´s authorities" should be called. I was merely noting my credentials to measure up to this.

As for a source, I can give you the News of the World Football Annual 2007-2008. See page 416, where winners of 3 trophies in Europe are listed - European Cup, Cup Winners' Cup and Fairs/UEFA Cup - they include winners of the Fairs Cup in the UEFA Cup list. They do the same on Page 418 with list of heaviest defeats of English clubs in Europe - Fairs and UEFA cup are listed as one. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 21:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of that annual. But, I believe you. So, now, we have 2 sources:

1) UEFA.com, the official web site of the owner of the UEFA Cup that doesn't include Fairs Cup winners;

2) A football annual that includes Fairs Cup.

Which one is more important, reliable and official? The list from the owner of UEFA Cup? Or the list from a football annual?

I'd like to say this encyclopedia is for everyone, not just for those who are used to that football annual or any other source. Also, there is no room for interpretations, UEFA Cup is a formal competition with formal owner, regulations and records. So, the only source that counts is the official one. And I have to say that until UEFA change their records, that magazine had made a mistake. As I said before, if anyone is 100% sure that your source is right and UEFA is wrong, write an email to UEFA explaining their mistake. If your magazine is right, they will change their web page and so we change this article. Until there, the article should use the official source and could mention that some sources (with references) consider Fairs Cup as UEFA Cup. How about that?

By the way, this article has versions in other languages, some consider Fairs Cup, some don't. What a mess! For example, Spanish article doesn't consider Fairs Cup and there is an independent Fairs Cup article.

--ClaudioMB (talk) 04:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Totally agree with Claudio. As I said, only in a poor encyclopedia could figure those wrong records as a few users want to show. Official records are the UEFA´s ones. It´s so simple!!! Why can we complicate the simple things? Rsssf.com, a very serious page that treats all the statistics in football history, follows the official UEFA´s announcement too [8] [9] [10], with a CLEAR separation of records... 1955-1971 for Fairs cup and 1971 to the present for Uefa Cup... Thoughts or feelings are wrong here. This is an encyclopedia and we must show ONLY official things...

--Ultracanalla (talk) 05:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

For anyone interested, there is a survey on Talk:European_football_records#Survey about this subject.--ClaudioMB (talk) 06:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

This source made official by UEFA [11] WOULD open the "blind" eyes of people who see only the things they want to see... More clear than that, IMPOSSIBLE:

"The UEFA Cup replaced the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup in the 1971/72 season. The list of finals from that competition are listed below, but please note that the Fairs Cup is not considered a UEFA competition, and hence clubs' records in the Fairs Cup are not considered part of their European record"

See you, --Ultracanalla (talk) 00:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Seeking a resolution

Optimistic title perhaps, but we shall see. This diff is typical of those in this edit war. The crux, of course, is whether to include Fairs Cup results. The Fairs Cup was a precursor to the UEFA Cup, but how closely entwined the competitions are is a bone of contention. I don't think anyone will dispute that in 1971 UEFA took over administration of the Fairs Cup, changed the entry criteria and relaunched it as the UEFA Cup. UEFA does not currently include the Fairs Cup in its records, but there are sources/statisticians who list them together.

Now, addressing the text changes in the edit wars directly:

The "most successful club" entry in the infobox is changed to add/remove Fairs Cup winners.

Infoboxes are not suited to situations like this where the answer is dependent upon the definition. Removing it from the infobox and putting a fuller explanation in the prose is a better option. Something like Inter, Juventus and Liverpool have won the UEFA Cup three times. If the precursor of the UEFA Cup, the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup, is also included, Barcelona and Valencia each have three titles.

The Fairs Cup is not considered a UEFA competition, and hence clubs' records in the Fairs Cup are not considered part of their European record alternates with While the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup is considered a pre-cursor to the UEFA Cup for records purposes, this does not apply to the Cup Winners' Cup.

Each version seeks to assert primacy, when the talk page shows that things are not necessarily so simple. I think both views could be incorporated. Something like: UEFA records list the Fairs Cup as a separate entity to the UEFA Cup, though some sources list both competitions together as a continuous entity. - with references for both parts, of course. The Cup Winners Cup part relates to the text above it, it probably makes the passage harder to understand, if anything, and I think that part should either be removed or reworded.

The link to Şükrü Saracoğlu Stadium is altered.

I'm sure that this change is merely incidental, and not the reason for reversion, but anyway... The article is currently at Şükrü Saracoğlu Stadium, where the article has resided since its creation. Requests to change that should be taken up at Talk:Şükrü Saracoğlu Stadium or WP:RM.

A list of Fairs Cup finals is added/removed.

Less room for manoeuvre. However, the same content is listed on UEFA Cup finals, and I see little point in duplication. Either that article should be merged here, or the table should be removed entirely.

Constructive comments welcome. Oldelpaso (talk) 18:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Odelpaso. You are welcome in this discussion and I appreciate the fact that now you are involved in this "problem".

1) Nobody denies that Fairs cup is the precursor of Uefa Cup. I think yhat this phrase must figure on the article. But by the other hand, I think we MUSN´T include unofficial records in wikipedia. This is a serios encyclopedia, and if UEFA -with its OFFICIAL sources- doesn´t include Fairs cup records into the Uefa Cup records [12], we must have common sense, and recognize that the official sourse must be the right one...

2) I didn´t invent this phrase: "The Fairs Cup is not considered a UEFA competition, and hence clubs' records in the Fairs Cup are not considered part of their European record". This phrase is literatly took from me from the official UEFA´s source [13]. And it´s real, my God! If you see European records of teams that have won Fairs Cup, those titles don´t figure (VALENCIA CF, FOR EXAMPLE [14])... why? Beacause UEFA doen´t include them, because they are unofficial... It´s very simple. Apples with apples and potatoes with potatoes... Fairs cups records by one hand, and Uefa Cup´s records by the other, as UEFA SAYS... Must we deny the official record? Will we replace them with thougths or feelings? I think that if we do that we´ll be wrong!

3) If serveral users doesn´t want to see the official way, I invite them to see the Records Statistics Foundation (RSSSF.com) -and ULTRA serios site about the whole statistics history of football- and see how it separates both tournaments [15] and [16]. Apples with apples and tomatoes with tomatoes... Why can must complicte things?

--Ultracanalla (talk) 22:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think my proposed text asserts anything it shouldn't. My aim is to reflect the policy on neutral point of view, which states When reputable sources contradict one another, the core of the NPOV policy is to let competing approaches exist on the same page, and The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one... ...Readers should be allowed to form their own opinions. I do not make a claim about what is "right" or "official", merely state that UEFA do things one way, and certain sources do it another. Alternative wording could be ''UEFA records list the Fairs Cup as a separate entity to the UEFA Cup, as does the Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation. Some sources, such as the News of the World Football Annual, list both competitions together as a continuous entity. On a side note, it might be worth checking out how the Association of Football Statisticians do things.

The full text of the paragraph you refer to in 2) reads The UEFA Cup replaced the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup in the 1971/72 season. The list of finals from that competition are listed below, but please note that the Fairs Cup is not considered a UEFA competition, and hence clubs' records in the Fairs Cup are not considered part of their European record. The page includes a list of Fairs Cup finals, yet is being used as a rationale for removing a list of Fairs Cup finals, which strikes me as odd. UEFA did not adminster the Fairs Cup, so it is correct to state that it is not a UEFA competition. Another (albeit clunky) way of phrasing it would be but please note that the Fairs Cup is not considered a UEFA competition, and hence clubs' records in the Fairs Cup are not considered part of their record in UEFA competitions.

I think one possible way to end this edit war would be to move the table of finals to UEFA Cup finals, and rename that article UEFA Cup and Fairs Cup finals, which is currently a redirect. In effect, making the presentation similar to that at [17], and therefore consistent with UEFA. Oldelpaso (talk) 10:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I think several things:

1) At UEFA Cup article: Must figure ONLY Uefa Cup´s records and NOT Fairs Cup (as figures at this moment). One competition is Fairs Cup with its records, and another is UEFA Cup, since 1971/72. It´s clear.

2) The same way at Valencia CF. They haven´t 3 Uefa Cups, as it states on the beguining of the article!!! They have ONE Uefa Cup (as it figures in the Uefa´s site) and 2 Fairs Cups!!!... See Valencia´s records at Uefa.com!

3) It´s NOT correct to put -for expamle- that Spain has 11 Uefa cup title´s. They have 5... We mustn´t include Fairs cup´s records in the Uefa´s cup records.

4) And if we are going to include "feelings" or "thoughts" above the official things, we have to say that in the first 3 editions of Fairs Cup, ONLY teams from a few cities could participate on this new "serious" torunament... And it lasted 3 years (the first edition) an 2 years (the second)... Not serious... Not the same thing.

--Ultracanalla (talk) 03:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

At the moment it is only this article I am concerned with, for simplicity's sake. Others can be dealt with once the impasse has been sorted at this one. We have diametrically opposed camps here. One camp taking the position that the Fairs Cup must be included no matter what, and the other that it must not, with equal strength of feeling. Both camps have supplied reliable sources to back up their position. In such cases the Wikipedia neutral point of view policy stresses the importance of not taking sides, so this cannot be resolved simply by decreeing that one side is "right" and banishing the other. Policy is to display both schools of thought, clearly attributing each position to the cited sources that verify it. This way Wikipedia is not advocating a position, but letting the reader decide based upon the sources given. Nothing is based upon feelings or thoughts, it is based upon material in existing published sources.

Providing a more extensive description of what changed when the Fairs Cup was turned into the UEFA Cup is a good idea. Oldelpaso (talk) 09:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

OK. But i answer: Why should we add records to clubs that the mother institution of european football (UEFA) doesn´t include officially? See all the official european records of the teams which have won Fais Cup at the UEFA´s site... [18] [19] [20] (Valencia, Newcastle, and Barcelona, for example) Why must we include Fairs cup´s records (where there are not), giving the back to UEFA´s official records? The same fact with the countries... Spain has 5 Uefas´s titles, not 11. The same for England and another countries...

Another SUPER serious site, RSSSF.com -as UEFA-, doesn´t mix both tournaments, and separates their records... Can we compare those two sources with an Annual Sports magazine?

See you, --Ultracanalla (talk) 23:01, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

PD: I think we must mention that the Fairs cup is the precursor of Uefa Cup, but we must NOT include their records and their finals on the Uefa Cup´s article, and in the other articles that are relationated with Uefa Cup... A mention is ok, but we don´t have to mix records that don´t exist... --Ultracanalla (talk) 23:06, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Many sources collate records, it's common practice. What makes RSSSF.com more important than the many sources than collate the records? Anyway i wouldn't take the UEFA.com information to literal, why would they collate the records when they weren't part of the Fairs Cup which is a DIRECT tournament to the UEFA Cup, the collation of the records is more than necessary and don't make out that your sources are more worthy, both sides of the argument have reputable sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadiga09 (talk • contribs) 09:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

First of all, perhaps you don´t know what the Records Statistics Foundation is. It´s an organization that archives and actualizes (I don´t know the specific word "get actual") ALL the football´s history of any league in the world! That means that it has a huge worth, over of those sources that collate records...

Second: I didn´t see any source that collates records. Plase show them.

Third: if they exist, they don´t have the value of:

1) The UEFA´s Official source

2) The Rsssf´s source.

Conclusion: any discussion here is impossible to hold. We must follow the official records, and those records are UEFA´s ones. --Ultracanalla (talk) 21:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Be serious please, if UEFA not recognize the Fairs Cup as UEFA competition, Wikipedia don't have include it like another thing! RSSSF is a project like wiki for football, so it's not a primary source, UEFA.com IS! --Dantetheperuvian (talk) 22:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

OK. THere is a difference between "UEFA" competitions and "European" competitions. For instance, at Valencia CF I've included the Fairs Cup victories in the European trophies section, but they're clearly not UEFA Cup wins, so I've left them separate. I don't see any way that this is wrong now. Does anyone disagree? Black Kite 23:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
- BK, seriously, this issue is now only being fought between these two users, and interestungly in Ultra's case, which Soanish speakers he can recruit on wiki (asking a user Dan the Peruvian for assistance in this edit war in Spanish). MickMacNee (talk) 00:32, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Black Kite. We can´t mix Fairs cup records with Uefa Cup records. In the list of champions, it must figure separate. One tournament is official and the other is NOT.

--Ultracanalla (talk) 23:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Ultra all my sources there's 5 of them are in the talk page of EUROPEAN FOOTBALL RECORDS and not to mention the other sources provided by other members on my side, check them out and as far as i'm concerned RRSF or whatever they are called it just a website just as my sources suggest and there is no way the RRSF holds more repute than mines why should it? so as i say again we both have reputable sources so i would suggest to stop edit warring (again) Also Dante, just to add of course UEFA.com aren't going to collate, why would they? They weren't invovled and are obviously taking the higher ground, but the roots of this competition is the Fairs Cup and is recognised by most as that, barring UEFA because they weren't involved, but the fact of the matter is they can't deny to took it over and just added the term UEFA to make it theres, but it's the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadiga09 (talk • contribs) 09:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The contributions of this IP [21] are almost the same than the user Fadiga09 [22]... It´s very suspicious and someone MUST investigate that. It would be a HUGE CHEAT... PLEASE: AN ADMINISTRATOR MUST INVESTIGATE THAT!!!

--Ultracanalla (talk) 13:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I am for the inclusion of the Fairs Cup, i have many books at home from the history of football and about 70% of these books have it included. (Matrixbucra (talk) 19:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC))

Look - I don't think we can look any further for a reliable source than UEFA themselves. Just to recap, the official UEFA website, linked in the article, says "please note that the Fairs Cup is not considered a UEFA competition, and hence clubs' records in the Fairs Cup are not considered part of their European record." Given that, I do not believe you can do anything else except separate the two tournaments - we can hardly say that UEFA themselves are wrong, can we? Black Kite 20:19, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Totally agree with Black Kite. Of course, we can´t. We mustn´t say that UEFA is wrong... I don´t know the interest that several users have to this theme. --Ultracanalla (talk) 21:52, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Interesting, but surely the neutrality of Wikipedia must be used here as one of the members above states? When two sides of an arguments are being fought and with both sides showing sources i think more needs to done, it's all in accordance to Wikipedia and it's philosphys. (Matrixbucra (talk) 22:15, 27 April 2008 (UTC))

I'm not sure what you're saying. We have a reliable source here - UEFA itself. Unless it can be established that UEFA's own website is wrong and the UEFA Cup and Fairs Cup are the same competition, I don't see how we can alter the current wording. Oh, and Matrixbucra, removing sourced information (the link to the UEFA website in this case) is usually seen as tendentious, so please don't do that again. Black Kite 22:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I haven't removed anything and for that matter don't accuse me of doing something i haven't, until then i wouldn't do so. If you can show me what i've removed then fine, but until then... As said above many reliable sources have been shown from both sides, seeing as your an Admin you should be familiar with the neutrality of Wikipedia, yes? Until both sides have been discussed with both showing reliable sources, the said article cannot be reverted, surely you know of this procedure? I would say look at this again Wikipedia:NPOV I think Wikipedia policies should be taken into account first. (Matrixbucra (talk) 23:55, 27 April 2008 (UTC))

You removed the UEFA web page source [23]. Black Kite 00:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Blocking of sockpuppets

After a further checkuser, I have blocked User:Matrixbucra, User:Barryisland and User:Forza Deano as sockpuppets of User:Fadiga09 and informed him that any other use of accounts other than the main one will result in an indefinite block. Black Kite 00:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] European Cup 3?

Is it still called European Cup 3, and the derived names, now that number 2 (the Cup Winners Cup) no longer exists? Jess Cully (talk) 19:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mistake regarding "won on 2-1 aggregate"

I think a mistake has been made regarding that phrase in some particular cases. When a team ties a match and wins the other, the phrase "won on aggregate" does not apply. They did not win because of the aggregate tally of goals. They won because they tied one game and won the other, that is they had 4 points (or 3 before the change to 3 point wins) and the other team had 1 point. Perhaps we should change that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.135.20.3 (talk) 14:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

No, that's not true at all. Combined goals over the two legs has always been the result quoted. - fchd (talk) 14:05, 1 June 2008 (UTC)