Talk:U.S. Route 20 in New York

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Contents

[edit] Proposed route description rewrite

Having rewritten the description of NY 22 at Polaron's request, I discovered that we had this article but it had a similarly mechanical route description. I have decided on dividing the road into the following sections based on my experience of it and changes in its character.

  • Western New York. This, for once, is actually worth subdividing into three sections.
    • Lake Erie. The road actually doesn't run right along the lake (except for the Route 5 duplex at the county line), but it runs parallel to it and high enough that it is sometimes visible. Its presence is something you never quite put out of mind here.
    • Buffalo area. Hamburg (the Route 20A split) to Depew (the NY 130 junction, where it becomes a busy strip and important suburban regional artery with many intersections along Southwestern Boulevard and Transit Road.
    • East of Buffalo. Depew to Avon, where the NY 5 overlap begins. Long straight rural road that sees, in Genesee County, a fair amount of regional truck traffic from drivers avoiding the Thruway on their way south (see discussion and sign pic in NY 63 article).
  • Route 5 and Finger Lakes. The duplex and the region are synonymous. Much open country, easy driving, and scenic village downtowns and lake vistas.
  • Central New York. From the east end of the Route 5 duplex at Auburn, Route 20 swings far south of the Thruway into the north end of the glacial moraines. Mostly two-lane through here, except around Morrisville where it divides into a four-lane unlimited-access road.
  • Leatherstocking Region. This will be from about Sangerfield to Schenectady, where it's often four lanes and a very important regional road along the upper fringes of the Catskill Plateau.
  • Capital District. This can take us through Schenectady, Albany, Rensselaer and the Route 9 duplex all the way to the state line.
  • I have decided to subdivide this into east (Albany area) and west of Hudson (Route 9 overlap and Berkshires) sections ... they're different enough. Daniel Case (talk) 16:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Anybody have any thoughts on this? If not, I'll start doing the rewrite in a day or two. Daniel Case (talk) 17:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Route descriptions, to me, shouldn't be overly, how should I word this - emotional. I've little problem with the changing of the sections, but make sure the section names are going to be understood by people not from the area. Also keep the descriptions to encyclopedic value, not putting in things like "Lake Erie's presence to the west of Route 20 here is something drivers never quite put out of mind." ClarkCT (talk) 18:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
That won't be in there. I just meant that signage and other things reminds you of the lake's proximity. I think the section names are, in fact, more non-NY understandable than the current ones. Daniel Case (talk) 23:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Everything looks fine to me; if there's any possible confusion over the section headers and the locations they cover, each of those areas have an article that can be linked to in the description. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 23:29, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
However, the articles should be linked to in the actual description and not in the headers unless there's no other way to work them in (which is doubtful) per the MOS. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 17:55, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
That's a temporary thing until I finish the route description and can look at the rewrite as a whole. Daniel Case (talk) 15:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Please also make sure the Major Communities box gets moved back to the top of the Route Description section (placed between the RD heading and the WNY heading.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ClarkCT (talk • contribs) 03:08, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Will do when I have some idea how the finished (hopefully soon) RD will read so I can make it as wide as the infobox if need be (I hate uneven margins; they look terrible). Daniel Case (talk)
Addendum: It works for now, but remember the infobox will eventually get a map, lengthening it. We'll need to bump the communities box further downpage if need be. Daniel Case (talk) 16:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, there's nothing requiring the communities box to be at the top of the route description. Just stick it wherever it works best. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 16:53, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Miscalculation of total mileage?

As I was finishing the route description, I noticed, among some other minor errors in the junction box, that it suggests that it's a ten-mile distance from the end of the NY 22 overlap to the MA state line. As this demonstrates, that's wildly inaccurate.

I added up all the county-mileage segments from the DOT PDF (which gives a two-mile distance for that curve) and came up with a total mileage of 363.33, which suggests that that's the only math error involved. But could someone else repeat the exercise? I don't think I should be the only one checking the work. Daniel Case (talk) 20:56, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll give it a look, since the entire junction list needs to be cleaned up anyway (case issues, punctuation, shield placement, and whatnot). --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 21:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I think when I did that junction list (all in the course of one night, my apologies for other mistakes, it was also only my second list ever done) I combined data from the DOT file and some other source (Gribblenation, perhaps? I don't remember now) - but I seem to recall that there was a discrepancy between the two. Why I used the wrong length is anyone's guess though. Sorry. ClarkCT (talk) 05:22, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
OK, I just went through the mileposts and it looks like the miscalculation happened in the area where US 20 goes back and forth between Otsego and Herkimer Counties. It should be good to go now. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 21:54, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested pictures

As I usually do after a route description, I am putting a list of pictures I think we need to adequately illustrate the article together. This time, for some, I'm adding topozone links in some cases to where I think would be good places to shoot from, since I can't be at all certain that I'll be able to get out to that region of the state and take pictures anytime soon (since my in-laws have now moved out of the Buffalo area). I would love to, and if anyone living up in WNY wants to put me (and, probably, my son) up for the sole purpose of giving me a reason to go up that way, I'll entertain proposals in email come warmer weather. But in the absence of certainty I can at least give guidance to others.

Right now we have four images:

  • Seneca Falls: Not really sure if the second one (the approach from 414) is really all that encyclopedic. Downtown is a little better. For the time being they give us something to at least break up the text flow if nothing else.
  • Central New York: The one I just grabbed off Flickr. Not quite sure where that was taken, and it's looking west along the road rather than east as I would prefer (paralleling the route description). But it is the type of "roadscape" I like to have.
  • The Dunn Bridge. I wish I had had better conditions when taking that one, but the fact is it does the job.

[edit] Pictures we should definitely have

Mainly roadscapes, to illustrate the text describing the region in the accompanying sections.

  • Lake Erie section. Something showing the long, straight stretches of road here, between towns. Preferably with minimal development aside the road. My best thought would be somewhere like here, near Ripley, where you might be able to get both the beach ridge and the lake in a panorama shot on a good day. In summer it would look marvelous. Take several pictures as a stitched panorama may be necessary.
  • Buffalo area. The lower Transit Road strip somewhere between Route 400 and Lancaster. Shoot from the turn lane or the median (get out of your car, my cardinal rule for taking great road pictures), preferably getting a Tops in there along with all the traffic and other businesses lining the road.
  • Genesee County. The sections in Alexander and Bethany where the road goes straight up and down hills and everyone from truckers to old ladies in Toyota Corollas drives about 85 mph because you just can't help yourself. I recall this spot as oferring a pretty good view of the next mile of road going all the way down, then up again. But there are others.
  • Finger Lakes. No better shot would scream "Finger Lakes!" than some view of the road curving around the lakefront in Geneva, into Seneca County. I recall you have a nice, elevated view from near Hobart, about here.
  • Downtown Auburn. Where the 5/20 duplex ends and the largest city on 20 to that point.
  • Central New York. Southern Onondaga County has some great stretches for this, places where you can see long distances ahead up the great bends the road takes. Like here, just before Cardiff; Big Bend, just to the east; east of Pompey and here, just east of the county line.
  • Leatherstocking. There's some similarly sweeping scenery in norther Schoharie and Otsego counties.
  • Albany. Probably a residential neighborhood with Corning Tower rising in the back.
  • The Route 9 overlap Commercial strip view in East Greenbush.
  • Berkshires. One of those little valleys near the end. Daniel Case (talk) 06:11, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures we probably should have, but aren't absolutely essential

  • Ralph Wilson Stadium. There are many pictures of it but none from the Route 20 side. One showing the road and the way it stands out from there would be great. A game-day pic with traffic and lots of red and blue would be ideal, but right now that will have to wait till next fall, I think
  • The 20/63 junction. It's not at right angles, making it visually interesting to begin with. If we can get a picture of some trucks waiting at or turning through the junction, it'll make the point about heavy truck use of the route. We might also be able to use it in the NY 63 article, too.

    There's some higher ground to the southwest, so if you stood like so you could get a really good picture if you were patient enough.

  • A 5/20 sign. Ubiquitous along that overlap. I normally dislike sign pics as inherently unencylopedic and showing nothing unless there's something unique about the sign, or the road as indicated by the sign, that's discussed in the accompanying text (see how this image is used), but this could fill some dead space and underscore the way it's referred to by both route names. Daniel Case (talk) 15:14, 23 December 2007 (UTC) This could be used as the lead picture if this were ever to reach FA status. Daniel Case (talk) 16:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Addendum: maybe link as a reference to some uses of "5 and 20" in local advertising and news coverage to very the way this concurrency is referred to by both routes (sometimes almost, in the region, pronounced as one word "head west on fiventwenty ..." Daniel Case (talk) 16:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Any picturesque downtowns, like Richfield Springs, as long as the picture shows the road and it doesn't look like just any upstate downtown.