Talk:U. G. Krishnamurti/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Death

Heard through the grapvine that U.G. is no more. He's gone everyone. -Osmosys —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.142.65.90 (talk) 10:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

Louis Brawley his caretaker emailed the information to myself and some people that knew U.G. Hopefully Mahesh will be able to give the exact details about what happened to the body. - Osmosys

The newspaper probably isn't going to cover this one. There's a slim chance there might be something in Switzerland, but otherwise forget it. I got the email from his caretaker. Believe me it's true. U.G. is gone. Sorry I can't give you guys an "encyclopedic source", but you can always go ask Louis or Mahesh. -osmosys

Rumors persist that U.G. never left Italy. Exact details are coming.

U.G. is still alive as of March 22nd, but he is on his death bed. The communication that he wanted to go to Switzerland was true, but he never went. -osmosys

this is why i love wikipedia. anybody can say whatever the hell they want, and present it as "fact".Mr.e-i-b 23:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you UG for your tough love. 67.183.19.64 19:06, 24 March 2007 (UTC)novon

Check out the sites www.ugkrishnamurti.org and www.ugkrishnamurti.net. U.G. has passed away on March 22.Maziotis 19:17, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It is true he's gone now! Sorry for the confusion, but he was on his deathbed for 10 days and it was dragged out, and there was misinformation. -osmosys

making the article consistent

Also, in "Yet, he claims, and is said by some people to be "enlightened"" is not correct. I haven't read any statement of his where he says he is enlightened, only the oposite. This statement is also contradicted near the end of the page, "He swiftly gained a reputation as an enlightened person, though he always refused the label".

This text was also added to this wikipage at one point, and removed, since it replaced almost all of the previous text, but is very pertinent, because it sumarizes the main part of U.G.'s philosophy. Perhaps it could be reworked and inserted into the main text?:

"The main theme which emerges from the discussions with him is the impossibility and unnessecity of any human change, radical or mundane. U.G. repeats endlessly that the body and its actions are aldready perfect, and attempts to change or mold the body or its actions are pure and simple violence. The psyche or self or mind, an entity which he denies has any being, is composed of nothing but this demand to bring about change in either the material or in itself. The human self-conciousness is not a thing, but a movement, one characterized by perpetual malcontent and a "fascist" insistence on its own importance and survival."

I went ahead, and changed the page like I commented here. The only problem now could be that the language between this paragraph and the next on the wikipage are differently-styled. I think it is the next paragraph that should be re-worded and re-worked, but as it stands is also ok, I guess.

-- anon


I wonder if there is any corroboration of UG's meetings and dialogues with J Krishnamurti I cant recall having seen UG's name mentioned in any of the biographies of JK. Malcolm

I have added citations for the quotes. -- vishvas

the citations re: the meetings with jiddu krishnamurti are all from a single source, i.e. ug himself. i believe poster "malcolm" is implying there's no third party corroboration of these discussions, as cited in the article. Mr.e-i-b 17:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Still POV problematic

If the article specifically reads like a hagiography, which it does, it needs cleanup. Period. I would rewrite the article, but I have little to no doubt that you would cheerfully redact it, just as you have with the talk page. V. Joe 18:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there such a thing as arbitration in the Wikipedia? If there is, please let me know.

--vishvas

POV/Third Opinion/Arbitration

Wikipedia does have an arbitration policy, although it puzzles me as to what you would like to have arbitrated. Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee. Arbitrate away, I suppose. This article is, and remains a POV problem, and I'll edit it when I get around to it, I suppose V. Joe 18:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I have sought third opinion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Third_opinion#Active_disagreements) about the aptness of associating the POV-problem tag with this article. Vishvas vasuki 04:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)Vishvas

Third opinion. The lead and introduction are definitely POV. I have added some inline messages to specify particular problems, but fixing these alone will not make the article NPOV. I suggest you read WP:NPOV#Fairness of tone and WP:NPOV#Characterizing opinions of people's work. Grouse 13:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I now see that it indeed deserves an POV-problem tag. Vishvas vasuki 15:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

why wiki-hinduism?

it is my understanding, reinforced by reading the article, that u.g. krishnamurti does not consider himself, neither cares whether other people consider him, a hindu, a religious persona in general, or even just a person with a certain message. why then include him under the "hinduism" project? why the labeling/pigeonholing? it is true that he was born a brahmin, but that's like saying "he used to live in such and such address". well, now he's moved, and that's no longer an issue. the idea that some of what he says are common concepts of hinduism is irrelevant. people will often find commonalities where they look for them. he clearly states in several places in published works that he is who he is despite his heritage/experiences.

65.88.88.126 18:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)pka


well, the wiki hindu bar has not been added to the article, so I really don't see where is the problem. The hindu project banner in the wiki discussion page just means that the developlment of the article concerns people envolved in hinduism.Maziotis 19:28, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

i don't see the link with hinduism at all. it's one thing to say that ug was born into a certain culture and nation. it's another to make him even peripherally a part of it. he has made it clear in numerous occasions that he has nothing to do with all that. putting him under the hinduism banner is actually just another opinion by a third party, which runs contrary to the way the subject perceives himself. i think that this is unfairly pigeonholing him.Mr.e-i-b 18:47, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm the one who added the template. Adding that template had nothing to do with the subject of the article, but with the article itself. Adding project templates to articles is merely a means of actively seeking collaboration from interested editors. Please keep that in mind.TheRingess 19:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
understood. the question remains, why would people interested in hinduism be more actively sought to collaborate here than say, bird-watchers? i think it probable that ug has been in close proximity of a bird. what i'm really asking is, what is the criteria by which the wiki hinduism template was included in this article.Mr.e-i-b 17:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Hmmmm...well it was my own criteria. In other words, it seemed like a good idea at the time. Keep in mind that the article can belong to multiple projects. At the very least it belongs in WikiProject Biography. Probably it also belongs in WikiProject India. It can't hurt to belong to WikiProject Hinduism. I'll leave it up to other interested editors to add it appropriate projects.TheRingess 20:13, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

i see that another user has also added the "modern dharmic writers" template to this article. this is getting out of hand. there are few categorizations that can be said to be objectively neutral: categorizing alphabetically for instance. or putting an article having to do with the life and times of a person under the biography banner. or categorizing geographically according to place of birth or chronologically according to date. imo, anything else, is editorializing, and should be addressed as such. when you insert the template in question, you imply that ug (the subject) has some relation to it. that's only an opinion. at least user TheRingess above had the grace to admit as much regarding the hinduism template.Mr.e-i-b 15:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, there's a lot more serious issues with this article than the templates. TheRingess (talk) 16:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

that to me is irrelevant. i'm only discussing the applicability of templates and neutrality of classification in this section. agreed that there are major other issues with this article, but whether they are more serious than the templates is also a matter of opinion.Mr.e-i-b 17:26, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
You say potato, I say potato. TheRingess (talk) 17:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
whatever. from the wiki-hinduism template: "This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hinduism, an attempt to promote better coordination, content distribution, and cross-referencing between pages dealing with Hinduism". where do you see anything "dealing with hinduism" in the article or the life of the subject to warrant this? just the fact that he was born a hindu is not enough. shouldn't classification decisions be made intelligently rather than just blindly assigning templates just because 1)it's easy and 2)the word "hindu" is in there?Mr.e-i-b 15:36, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Introduction quote

I don't think the current intro quote in the beginning of the article is in any way representative of U.G. thought or what he generally transmits. It is just a collection of contradictory sentences that do not help the visitor to this article to have a first understanding of him. There may not be such a thing, but in that case it would be best not to put anything. I suggest we either put something more consistent, like a full quote that was actually said by U.G. himself, or we abstain from saying anything at all.Maziotis 20:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Super. You find it! Grilledegg 21:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

How about the "nothing" thing? It strikes me as the best representative, since the man himself does not hold a single thought as representative of anything. I say we live the first part of the article to the bio, exclusively. It is, after all, the criterion that we use for any other individuality on wikipedia. Selecting quotes is always somewhat POV, and for that it is usually left to the end of the article.Maziotis 21:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Fine with me. Grilledegg 21:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

When I said "nothing", I meant to say nothing at all. But I guess this one somehow amounts to that....Maziotis 22:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry, but it is not like UG has ever said that the words "i have no message for mankind" represent who he is. I think it would be best to avoid what could be described as being "creative", since this concerns an encyclopedic article.Maziotis 23:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

That's the quote I've seen used most often, but it's okay the way it is now...Grilledegg 08:11, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

May I simply say that it someone has cleaned this article and shown the man the respect he earned. For months it lied all messed up with what I call a cynical 'citation needed attack' interspersed throughout. Thankyou whoever it was. It looks good now. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.68.143.209 (talk) 12:56, 1 May 2007 (UTC).

Yes. Grilledegg did a nice job cleaning things up. It is much better the way it is now.Maziotis 13:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


NPOV

This does not make it true, and in the case of Mr. Krishnamurti, cannot be true. If it were true, there would be no article. A guru who says he is not a guru is still a guru, especially if he is followed around by acolytes who record his every word.

Whatever other faults there may be in the article, to simply avoid being obviously inaccurate, the first line should, at least, be changed (my changes in capitals)to read: "Uppaluri Gopala Krishnamurti, better known as U.G. Krishnamurti, or just U.G., SAYS HE is not a guru or a teacher or a philosopher or any kind." [by the way, this is the first time I've done this. I hope I have followed correct form]

-- Joe Harijan

I am going to implement the above good suggestion, and remove the "neutrality is disputed" tag since the trigger for that tag is being invalidated herewith.

-- vishvas

The original notice said: "This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons says that the article must have the following qualities:

   * Verifiability
   * Neutral point of view
   * No original research

I have added citations for all controvertial quotes. I have removed the "philosophy" section because it contained original research. I have removed the NPOV tag from the article and this (discussion) page.

-- vishvas

again, please remove the NPOV tags and this whole section, as these concerns seem to have been met.

-- anonymous

[User:Valentinejoesmith]had added the NPOV tag without a suitable entry in the "discussion" page. His criticism, when contacted by email was as follows: "To place it simply, this article does not seek to adopt a NPOV. I added the tag merely because of what others had writ, which I throughly agree with. I also feel that the tone of the article is rather obviously unenclyopedic and gives undue weight to those that agree with " U.G." "

The following has been my response to him: I just visited http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view . This is written there: "The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly."

Now, where pray tell am I to find "conflicting views"? I have not seen any in popular press. If you say that there have been conflicting views, I suggest that you add a "Criticism" section to the article with that information. Just make sure, however that you source them from a work which, as the NPOV wiki article puts it, "have been published by a reliable source. "

For now, I shall remove the NPOV tag from the article, and will publish a summary of this conversation in the "Talk" page, as this discussion is of general interest. For clarity's sake, I suggest that you use the talk page henceforth when you make changes. Others' valuable suggestions in the talk page have been satisfactorily dealt with. If you disagree, please elaborate.

If you think tone of the article is "rather obviously unenclyopedic", I suggest that you help either rectify it, or please be accurate by using a more appropriate tag. Whereas this article is obviously not "best article" material, the tone alone does not warrant a NPOV tag.

--vishvas

Discuss the article here

if i may, i'd like to suggest that several of the comments in this section, including the ones by "osmosys" and the "THINKER" do not belong to the NPOV section, as they have nothing to do with the methodology of the article in question, but instead question, or interpret, the subject of the article itself, ie ug krishnamurti. -- unnamed person.

I have accordingly removed those comments. The talk page is meant for discussions about the article, not about the subject. --vishvas


Leave Comments Here

At least he has a sense of humor, Jiddu:if the house is burning what shall you do? U.G. pour gasoline on it, hope something good rises from the ashes. Ive read a few jokes from jiddu that were just god-awful

It's amusing to watch people fight over these definitions of a man that destroys every attempt to define who he is. -osmosys

ya, i've heard lots of criticism against him, as being a fake guru, an unenlightened person parading around spiritual teachings, like Osho... is it true?

Jesus..you seem to be enlightened man !! First do you have any idea what enlightenment is ?? Is there a thing called elightenment ?? And if suppose there is ...does a method exist to verify that ?? Are you enlightened ?? And if some comman sense is still out there in you sir - one will never be so irresponsible and would not come out with such stupid comments on all these or any matter !!

rakesh

-- You're asking if he's a fake enlightened? Well, from what I understand, he's saying that all gurus and elightened men are fakes. I've never "followed" gurus or enlightened men, so I can't really say how genuine an article this one may be.


-- He has no reason to fake anything because he has no teaching. People ask him questions, and he gives them answers that is all. Of course they always ask more questions because as he would put it, "the questions you are asking are born out of the answers you already have".

When people say he has a teaching it is only because they are asking the same questions over and over, and he is only telling them the same thing over and over.

Eventually some get the joke, and they just lose it.

-osmosys


Style cleanup

I have cleaned up the page by following the "Wikipedia:Manual of Style" guidelines on presenting comments. I have also removed the "article cleanup" tag. Please reinsert it if you see some specific thing which can be done to improve the article's compliance with wikipedia standards. --vishvas