Talk:U. G. Krishnamurti
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[edit] describing UG
i don't know that it is fitting to describe ug as a philosopher or speaker. i also dont think we should use other peoples' impressions/quotes in the first paragraph. perhaps we could just reference the 'natural state' as he called it. shall i change it?
also i would think this artical needs more direct quotes, also is there a link to the relevant works on wikisource?
Rajpalrajpal (talk)
~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rajpalrajpal (talk • contribs) 00:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
No. It's a biographical entry, not an exposition of UG's thought, which in any case is presented quite succintly, imo. No matter what UG was saying, we as editors have every right to categorize him with persons who did or concerned themselves with similar things. For the purpose of such categorisation, the content of his "non-philosophy philosophy" (how ironic - haha) is immaterial. He was a public speaker (did it for decades) and a self-styled philosopher even if he denied it. Secondly there are more than enough direct quotes. This is not a quote farm. There is a link to Wikiquotes by UG. Anyone can go over there and indulge all they like. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.126 (talk) 19:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- hi. i think its a misrepresentation. what you are saying is like saying that it is okay to give a tabloid representation to public figures. did he have a non-philosophy philosophy etc or was this the projection of those who wrote about him? likewise callng him a philosopher suggests he was talking from theoretical standpoint (e.g. like Kant) as opposed to talking from direct experience. i am concerned that the opening is giving the wrong idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rajpalrajpal (talk • contribs) 23:03, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
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- We have no way of knowing whether he was talking from "direct experience". And as the editor above said, these matters are not the purview of a wikipedia entry. As was posted above, we do have a right to categorize the subject for the purposes of wikipedia. UG was concerned and spoke at length publicly about matters that a sizable number of "philosophers" (religious and secular) have discussed since the beginning. Therefore, a "philosopher". His particular philosophy has no bearing in the way he's categorized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.212.121.243 (talk) 00:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
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- If I may, I'd like to add that the article makes clear the broad outlines of UG's thinking. I think that an average person can tell for themselves by reading the article, whether UG's characterization as "philosopher" is literal, or just an adequate (but not perfect) fit for descriptive purposes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.212.121.243 (talk) 00:47, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] UG's personality
I think a few things should be added about UG's personality, info cited/sourced to people who knew him well. There must be objective ways to do this without direct quotes proclaiming what a great man or what a low scoundrel he was. For example, I read a blog entry from somebody who knew him for years, and this person was describing how during the last years of his life UG was becoming senile, repetitive and obsessed with Krishnamurti. Also, others describe him as posturing, generous, preening, gentle etc etc often in the same sentence. I know there are many places one can find this info on the net. I just think that there must be a neutral way to add some of that in this entry. I would say as part of the "Post-Calamity" section, since that's when most people started knowing him and that's when he really came up expressing his philosophy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.105.155.141 (talk) 23:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I suppose a short reference would be ok, but I see problems with the suggestion. It can easily degenerate into cheap psychoanalysis/personality analysis from a distance. Also it risks turning the article in an opinion and/or quote list. The reason UG has an entry is because of his latter-day philosophy, not because of his personality, which for a lot of people may come across as blunt and far from likable or charming. I don't know and cannot really determine to what degree his personality influenced his latter-day philosophy or vice-versa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.130 (talk) 14:27, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Removal of the Criticism section
I removed it, as it added nothing new or relevant. UG thought that people such as Osho were crooks. Osho disagreed, and thought of UG as a crook in so many words. Big deal. There is no use for criticism in a bio entry anyway. The entry is about UG as a person, not a semi-academic examination of whatever philisophy he was expounding (if any) - except as ancillary to his personality and life. There's no need about a "balanced" entry that has to include blame, praise, and everything in between. Because every editor has a different sense of balance. It also doesn't matter whether or not he was lifting wholesale from Jiddu K. This is about what UG did and said, and he never claimed authorship, originality or ownership. These are attributes others attach to him or subtract from him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.173 (talk) 17:52, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Disagree. I restored the criticism section and it is also found on many bio entries. It is wishful thinking to somehow imply that U.G. was above criticism, either regarding his life or his teachings. It may not matter to you, but lifting wholesale from other sources is called 'plagarism'. That he never claimed ownership might have very well been a ploy to avoid lawsuits. For a guy who did nothing but criticise others, I am sure he could withstand a few sentences of criticism.
71.103.107.131 (talk) 19:03, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Guess what, this is not a forum about your (or anyone's) like or dislike of UG. It's his bio entry. What his perceived faults or perceived "greatness" and importance was, it's up to the readers to decide. The article is already overlong and full of POV. Now you add your own POV - in case I haven't made it clear, any notion of "balance" is a POV. Whatever you think about "ploys" and plagiarism are also POV and don't justify adding the section. The article does give some info about what UG was about. You just have to take him or leave him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.173 (talk) 19:18, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Bull. I was the one who added the criticism section. If you think this article is a bio entry, I have a bridge to sell you. Most of the article is about U.G's meetings with philospohers (Ramana and JK) and his views and what he thought of their teachings. Hardly a bio entry. U.G's own 'experience' was compared to J.K's description no less! You have every right to be a U.G devotee and dislike any criticism, but you must confine yourself to your own web site in that case. Readers can decide for themselves which is why counterpoints are necessary. Censorship is dead. Wake up and smell the coffee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.233.110.66 (talk) 01:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Ofcourse it's his bio entry. The reason a lot of it covers his meetings with others is because that's what he did, for decades. The reason it covers his impressions of them is because that's what preoccupied him and led him to formulate whatever it is he came up with. The article (a work in progress) represents his so-called "philosophy" without giving it any merit or demerit. The reason his "philosophy" is represented is because it is the only reason for this bio entry. The article also represents some of what is known to be the facts of his life, again without any judgement, pro or con, about said facts or the person of UG himself. It may come as a surprise to you, but readers do have the ability, if they care enough to research it, to form their own opinion about whether he was a saint, an idiot, argumentative, a con man etc etc without your "guidance". You are the one who wants to present opinions about him. Do it in YOUR website. The "criticism" section is as irrelevant as a "praise" or an "influence" section. It blows, and it goes. BTW, there's no "censorship", as you well know. Just removal of your and others' POV that's masquearading as relevant info. Also not censorship: removal of positive or negative (in your case) opinion of the subject that is camouflaged as supposedly "interesting" criticism of the subject by others. Finally I don't understand your problem with UG's quote about his state during JK's speech. Are you denying he made the quote? Are you saying that is irrelevant to the subject matter? Because these are the things that matter. Not its veracity, nor your opinion of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.214 (talk) 17:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Loss of citation integrity due to carelessness of IPSOS
Krishnamurti, U.G.; Rodney Arms Ed. (2001). Mystique of Enlightenment Part One, Third. Retrieved on 2007-09-05.
The above information is the information required for the footnote or numbered reference list. I endeavoured to repair error and have left my insertion in state, to no benefit or ill. Unfortunately, this advanced citation skill is at present beyond my ken. The error is still evident and in need of a fixative as per red text. Walking my talk in Beauty B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 07:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] U. G. Krishnamurti image
I removed the other images as it didn't have the copyright information. I got permission to use this image from the creator, so don't delete as of yet until OTRS has their say. I've forwarded the confirmation email to them. --Kolrobie 11:59, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Link in Notes No. 9
It does not work anymore, don't know why. The book I've quoted from is still online, this biography written by Mahesh Bhatt [1].
- Austerlitz -- 88.75.89.218 (talk) 13:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Here is the text of the letter Krishnamurti left before leaving the Ramakrishna Mission: "7 September '63
My Dear Swamiji,
I have just been told by Maharaj that the eye operation has been a success and that you are well on your way to complete recovery, and that you will be returning to the Center in a week or so. This is very good news. And we are all looking forward to seeing you back at the Center ere long.
I would like to pay you a visit, but certainly not if this will in any way cause strain to you. If it isn't too much of a strain, it would give me great pleasure to see you at the Hospital, and you may be assured that it will be a very short one.
I wish to God I knew what hidden hand led me to the Center. When you suggested helping you out with some kind of editing work, I did not for a moment hesitate to fall in with your kind suggestion. What I did not know was that I would be having the most Blessed Moments of my life here at the Center. It is needless to add that it has been a great privilege to have associated myself with you, and I feel greatly refreshed both in mind and body.
That, however, apart, my continued stay here at the Center and the necessary atmosphere for alert and strenuous discernment in meditation have helped me tremendously. The hidden agony of my life which no human being could understand has dissolved itself into thin air, as it were, and this has awakened me to what may loosely be called a kind of spiritual sleepwalking. I have pulled myself out from what looked like the edge of an abyss.
You know that there are very rare occasions in the lives of most of us when we have brief experiences of existing beyond time. I too have had several such moments. But this has been more than fleeting and has indeed become an abiding certainty. Nevertheless the strains and stresses of adjusting myself to a whole new way of life resulted in a peculiar state of mind hedged with some kind of indolence, maybe a form of conceit, which only meant greater and greater sorrow but left with a kind of empty expectancy. I may have achieved a certain calmness, but that calmness was of death-producing languor. But I have always felt and still feel that one has to haul oneself out of one's own swamps by one's own bootstraps.
However, all my strenuous and directed attention hasn't helped me much to break the vicious circle. Well, now, through the touch of the inscrutable Divine power of Sri Ramakrishna, I have been blessed beyond words with the clarity of perception. And this calmness is a calmness without a trace of languor or contentment or watchful expectancy but one of completeness and wholeness. Need I say that when I burst forth into the world—the joy which overflows the heart is indeed bursting forth—I will be a new man?
With deep and affectionate regards,
Ever yours,
U.G. Krishnamurti" source [2], taken from the chapter Adrift in London.
- Austerlitz -- 88.75.72.132 (talk) 14:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe we can cite part of the letter on the mainpage?
I have been editing the page for the past couple of weeks, mainly removing some flowery and subjective language more suitable to hagiographies. The article, long as it is, is incomplete ofcourse and far from inclusive, but that's a different apple. I don't object to the inclusion of the letter if you feel it necessary; however, you can just enter that UG was often inconsistent and contradictory, and sometimes damn near illogical, like everybody else. But even that would overlook the fact that the entry about his "philosophy" in the article is way too much skewered to the way UG presented himself to the world after age 49. That is, before the 1970s, nobody was calling UG the "anti-guru" etc etc. At least, not that I'm aware of. I don't think that the article articulates properly how his "philosophy" evolved from point A to point B, although such effort is attempted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.214 (talk) 23:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I wanted to point out what U.G. has said about the influence Ramakrishna has had on him, given the fact that there already is a quotation referring to Ramana Maharishi. I've always confused those two with one another; maybe because both of them are said to be worshippers of Divine Mother. Rereading the text given by Mahesh Bhatt, I noticed that there is a question mark, lacking in the small edition I had made about U.G.'s leaving the Ramakrishna Mission. I ought to change the text therefore, I have not done until now. Most probably it is not necessary to insert the complete text of his letter, I am not sure about that.
- Austerlitz -- 88.72.29.72 (talk) 09:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Now the link to note No.9 is okay again. Thank's.
- Austerlitz -- 88.72.29.72 (talk) 09:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
