Talk:Tzniut

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[edit] Orthodox views in dispute

Hello RK, pleased to be edit warring with you again :-). Could you stop tinkering with the orthodox views and then claiming that these are still orthodox views? You're correct that many "customs" of tzeniut have evolved into halakha, but this is hardly localised to tzeniut. There are literally hundreds of instances where custom has become law, and it is utterly pointless to make that point over here (do it on halakha if the mood strikes you).

I honestly do not know what you are talking about. Could you give me a specific example? What Orthodox Jewish view do you think my edits have misrepresented? Also, I do not follow your logic. (A) You admit that I pointed out that something true happened in regards to tzeniut. Fine. (B) You note that this process is also true in many other cases. Fine. (C) You conclude that this is false and must be removed. Huh? (D) It is very to the point to discuss the differences in laws of tzeniut here, and how the laws of tzeniut developed. Why in the world would you remove the subject from here, and put it elsewhere? It just looks like you are trying to hide any discussion of how Jewish customs on this topic evolved. Why? RK 16:56, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)

I also slashed Rabbi Monique's block quote. I've complained to you previously about long quotes that add little to the article, apart from reinforcing a POV you've just represented. She manages to take Reb Moshe's p'sak for extenuating circumstances and turn it into a lechatechilah. That is not how halakha works, unless you happen to be of the persuation that any bedieved can be turned into a heter. (Outsiders, please excuse the jargon.) JFW | T@lk 16:37, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

(A) Sorry, JFW, but these are not long quotes; how can you know so much about Jewish texts, and then imagine that one paragraph is "long"? That's nonsense. Serious Jewish texts are hundreds of pages long, and often contain two or three page-long quotes. The same is true of secular academic articles and books. Finally, consider the many other Wikipedia articles we have; they too have many quotes of similar lenght. The only quote I added is well within these normal Wikipedia parameters. RK
(B) I think that you may misunderstand how Wikipedia articles grow. We do not slash factual content to "balance" an article. This is a brand new encyclopedia, built on user contributions. We add new content to add balance. We welcome new additions to provide many points of view. Wikipedia NPOV policy demands that we say something like According to group A, such and such is the policy, while according to group B, such and such is the policy. We do not take sides. As such, we would welcome your addition of Orthodox points of view into this article. However, as the article currently existed, it only pushed the Orthodox Jewish point of view, which was a clear NPOV violation. That is why a Conservative POV was added. This article needs to grow by adding facts, history, quotes, and discussion representing a few points of view, not cutting all POV's except the Orthodox one. If you feel the need to further explain the Orthodox position, and add quotes, fine. But please do not cut out 100% of all points of view other than your own. RK 17:01, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)

Response:

  • You made an artificial distinction. Many present-day observances originated as customs, but to group them in the way you did it misrepresents the present situation.
  • I agree that the conservative POV should be mentioned, but Rabbi Monique's comment added nothing that you hadn't already mentioned. I could give (if I had the time) the full text of all Reb Moshe's teshuvos on tzeniut, but this is not constructive. There are no quotes at all in the article now, apart from the scriptural ones at the top.
  • I did not cut other POVs. If you think so, please provide a specific example. JFW | T@lk 17:04, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] spelling

I'm curious why you've chosen the spelling tzeniut as opposed to tzniut. To my knowledge, tzniut is equally close to the correct pronunciation and is the more common transliteration. --WikiGnome 19:32, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Tzniut redirects to Tzeniut, so it's no problem. But you've got a good point there. Maybe it's to make the word easier to read for a broader audience? -- Daverocks 22:44, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cherney Article

A reference, Ben Cherney's article 'kol Isha', was deleted. It's a perfectly good primary source and an Orthodox one, although it happens to discuss lenient as well as strict perspectives. Deleting sources inconsistent with ones POV is against WP policy. --Shirahadasha 16:59, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

You already used the same article as a reference, and I retained that reference. You can't have it both ways. JFW | T@lk 12:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Modern Orthodox Feminist Alliance view vs everyone else in Orthodoxy

Why the need to twist this article's views when dealing with Orthodoxy, to convey the views of a minority from the Orthodox Feminist Alliance when the teachings of the rest of Orthodoxy are not like it in any way, shape, size or form on the subject of tzeniut especially regarding kol isha (female voices) in Halakha? IZAK 05:02, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

IZAK, I found a link to Saul Berman's 1980 Kol Isha article (naturally enough, on the Edah website) and I'm adding it to the references. We've discussed the Sederei Eish's classic responsum before. There are lenient minority views, and historically whole communities who've accepted them. Leniency in this area is not the preserve of JOFA. --Shirahadasha 01:49, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mechitza, Shoulder height???

BS"D

I though that a mechitza had to be taller than the tallest woman. And, unless I am much mistaken, shoulder hieght was a Psak from a modernish posek. Could someone clarify, Please. Shaul avrom 11:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Suggest that disputes over the height of a Mechitza be mentioned in the Mechitza article, not the Tzeniut article. There are multiple positions on what the proper height should be. Best, --Shirahadasha 17:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

My Hakoros Hatov. Exactly how do I do that?? --Shaul avrom 00:01, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Mekhita can be 40 some inches or less tall accordint to Moishe Feinstein, taller than than the tallest person according to most others, usually considered to be 70 in. 88.152.101.127 01:02, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello, we added a section on this issue to the Mechitza article. Please add content and discuss the issue there. Best, --Shirahadasha 01:06, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other tznius issues

Think it should be mentioned that showing wealth in houses and cars is also discouraged by poskim an untnius, or tnius in speach and action, sitting positions, bicycles, women driving, eating on the street, drinking water in public, etc. 88.152.101.127 01:02, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irony

I'm sure the irony of the following sentence early in the article isn't lost on anyone:

"The Talmud boasts that humility is one of the characteristic traits of the Jewish people. (Talmud, Tractate Yevamot 79a.)"

Perhaps a rephrasing would be appropriate?


I think a section should be added about the historical practices of modesty among Jewish men and women as mentioned in the Talmudic literature... which I see no where mentioned on this site. I have already added a bit about this in the Modesty article under the Jewish section. I believe this is important due to apprently mass ignorance about the high level of modesty many of even our not so distant ancestors kept. Throughout practically all non-European communities the same level of modesty in dress was observed up unto this last century - just as it is mentioned in the Talmud BEFORE the rise of Islam. Some examples of a small minority which still practice such levels of modesty are some of the most traditional individuals among Yemenite Jews and Ethiopian Jews. The particular aspect of traditional tzniut among these various communities concerned use of the radheedh. I already wrote a little about this in the Jewish section of the article on Modesty. There I kept it short. Is anyone willing to put together a similar section concerning tzniut in the Talmudic period unto the Middle Ages and/or on tzniut as observed in the majority of non-European communities up unto this last century? I believe this information must be included somehow in this article... Omedyashar 23:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Here are some references: In the photo section of Mori Yosef Qafehh's book Halikhot Teimon one sees how Yemenite Jewish women of the area of Sa'ana dressed in private and in public. They wore a radheedh in public which they would pull over their face leaving their eyes exposed, when they would encounter a man with whom they were unfamiliar. The style of Jewish women's hair/head-covering in Yemen was very clearly distinct from the style of the muslim women. The Jewish women of Sa'ana area placed the radheedh on top of the gargoush - a hood type haircovering which was slightly coned at the top.

There is a book in English called "The Yemenites: 2,000 years of Jewish History," with photos showing how Jewish women of other regions in Yemen dressed/dress.

________________________________________

Israel & Ishmael ( Studies in Muslim - Jewish Relations) Edited by Tudor Parfitt in chapter titled "Cover Her Face:" Jewish Women & Veiling in Islaamic Civilisation by Yedida K. Stillman pages 13 - 29 [also includes a chapter on the Hemerayit Kingdom of Yemen]

Pictures of female Jewish dress (references learned from the above book):

Jewish woman in Smyrna, Turky in late 1700's/early 1800's; painting of Jewish woman indoors -- hair covered face exposed/ outdoors -- only eyes exposed; From "A History of Jewish Costume, 1973, page 42; A. Rubens.

Actual photo of Jewish woman in Baghdad, Iraq wearing a radheedh which the Jews there called khiliy and the Muslims called pica -- from "Album of Jewry of Iraq," A. Twena Ramla, 1981 p.171

Actual photo of a group of several Jewish women from Tunis, Tunisia in early 20th century visiting a cemetary, all but one wearing traditional dress - consists of a large radheedh called 'tantar,' which sits on top of a cone type hat the women wear underneath it; The radheedh practically covers them entirely; from Robert Attal. [Here is a similar and clearly related photo I found online: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/pages/J12I276T.jpg ]

Actual photo of Jewish Berber woman from Tafilatt/lt?, Morocco wearing radheedh; Jean Besancenot Collection.

Actual photo: Rabat - Les mellahs de Rabat - Sale', Paris 1927; J. Goulven. Omedyashar 20:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the ark covering (parochet)

the ark is covered by the parochet a curtain to hide the scroll definitely worth the trouble because it's holy! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 90.199.249.30 (talk) 20:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Conservative Judaism and the Mechitza

This article mistakenly states that "Conservative, Liberal, and Reform congregations do not separate the sexes during services." In fact, some Conservative synagogues do employ a mechitza. I have edited accordingly.