Talk:Tyranid Hive Fleets

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of WikiProject Warhammer 40,000, an attempt to expand, update, and improve all articles relating to Warhammer 40,000 on Wikipedia. You may edit this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of objectives for the project.

An entry from Tyranid Hive Fleets appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 30 May 2007.

Contents 1 Copyvio? 2 Variations 3 Notability 4 Merging work to be done 5 Fair use rationale for Image:Tyranid prowler.gif 6 Fair use rationale for Image:Tyranid stalker.gif 7 Fair use rationale for Image:Razorfiend.gif

[edit] Copyvio?

what's going on man ? Lots of those warhammer pages are stolen! Who do I need to msg to stop this shit. Peace out.

What are you even going on about? 1. Legal accusations are not allowed. 2. Everything is properly cited, and anything found in Wikipedia is able to be spread to other Wikipedia pages. SanchiTachi 23:25, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

legal accusations? I'm not making no legal stuff but the book owners might when they see you have just coped stuff directly out of the source books - that breaching copyright man. I have the books in front of me it's direct lifts!

The word "stolen" is a legal accusation. Furthermore, fair use allows things to be directly cited. If you noticed, everything "taken" from the books are referenced properly, and there are no direct quotes, but only compilation of information from various sources. SanchiTachi 23:31, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

if the text on wikipedia is a direct quote from published, copyrighted material, it is inappropriate. You cannot use someone else's words and pass them off as your own. That is generally considered plagirism and is frowned upon. Paraphrasing and citing is much more appropriate and acceptable. Lorangriel 14:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Variations

There are mamy different kinds of vessels in the fleet- too many to number. However we could add all the weapons avalible and the 'bio-morphs' in addition to the regular configurations of tyranid ships. General Aion 08:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notability

I would suggest the notability tage be removed. Within it's realm (i.e. wargaming), the subject is well known and appropriate as a wikipedia article. Lorangriel 15:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. I don't think it is notable. It doesn't meet the notability guidelines that require reliable sources independent of the subject. Right now, the 5 sources are:

1. Priestley, Rick (2004). Warhammer 40,000, 4th Edition, Nottingham: Games Workshop. ISBN 1-84154-468-X.
2. Battlefleet Gothic Rulebook. Games Workshop. Retrieved on 2007-05-27.
3. Chambers, Andy. Warhammer 40,000 Codex: Tyranids, 1st Edition, Nottingham: Games Workshop. ISBN 1-872372-90-2.
4. Kelly, Phil; and Chambers, Andy (2004). Warhammer 40,000 Codex: Tyranids 3rd Edition, 3rd Edition, Nottingham: Games Workshop. ISBN 1-84154-650-X.
5. Forgotten-Fleets. (http://uk.games-workshop.com/tyranids/forgotten-fleets/1/) Games Workshop. Retrieved on 2006-05-07.

which looks like 4 rulebooks and an article on the Games Workshop website which describes building miniatures. These are primary sources. Quoth the Wikipedia:Verifiability page: "If an article topic has no reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." I think that applies in this case, so maybe I should suggest that it is not verifiable.--Capn ed 21:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree all you want, but this is a fork of a game that has won three origins awards, produced many video games based on it that have critical acclaim, produced comic books and novels on the series that are critically acclaimed, had 5 world wide campaigns featuring the Tyranids, had over 12 different other board games relating to the Tyranids, and the Tyranid Hive Fleets have existed since 1980s.

Please read Wikipedia:Fork before attacking an article. 4.139.51.127 22:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Please read the page before Reverting. Please don't remove the Battle for Macragge entry, as that is important as an example of a hivefleet in the main Warhammer 40,000 game. Also note that the page is about a game, and isn't in universe, because the whole page is operating off of rules. See the Fiction guidelines. 4.139.51.127 22:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Lorangriel. As a player of Battlefleet Gothic, I can testify that its notable. Its far more notable than most biographies around here, and there are thousands of players. Pages are allowed to be continuations of games. Does the Lord of the Rings horse page have citations of awards or newspaper articles? No, because its a continuation of the Lord of the Rings page. Same applies to all of the Warhammer pages. 75.104.133.79 01:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Saying at the beginning that you are talking about fiction doesn't cover you for the rest of the article. Saying that you are talking about a game doesn't absolve you from writing in the context of the real world. What do you mean by it "isn't in universe, because the whole page is operating off of rules"? Do you mean that you are following some Wikipedia guideline regarding discussing fiction? If so, could you please point me to them, and I'll drop my objection. You also say "See the Fiction guidelines." Do you mean Wikipedia:Notability (fiction)? Because there it says, "Wikipedia articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot." Because this article offers zero in the way of real-world context and source analysis, offers no detail on the work's achievements, impact or historical significance, and is only a summary of some aspects of the hive fleet. I submit that the article on Warhammer 40,000 is notable, because the game has a large following and is influential. But that doesn't automatically bestow notability on everything to do with the game. The Warhammer 40,000 article is also written in a style that is appropriate to a work of fiction by the guideline quoted above. The article on Tyranids in general is notable as a major aspect of Warhammer 40,000, but less so, because it is derivative material, but it also has some of the problems that this article has with "in-universe" material: it is not always clear that the subject in question is fictional. As an example, see this paragraph from that page:

"It has also been hinted, in the latest edition of the codex, that the Milky Way has been visited by Tyranids before. The catchan devil is suggested to be a version of the Ravener. Others, such as the brainleaf, might also have similar connections. It is possible that they have been left behind by a hive fleet that passed through the galaxy millennia ago or are stranded tendrils of an attack group cut off forever from the Hive Mind."

This is in-universe style. Tyranids, the catchan devil, the Ravener, the brainleaf, the Hive Mind, the hive fleet, all only exist in the context of the game. There is no real-world context, no analysis. The hive fleets article has all the same problems to a greater degree, is further derivative (and less notable), and seems to repeat much of what is discussed on the main Tyranid page (based on my quick scan). It is presented in the same style: it is not always clear to the reader that this article describes a work of fiction, and that is what the in-universe template is for.--Capn ed 14:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I never argued that the in-universe tag be removed. If we are going to argue about that can we move it under a different heading so things don't get confused? Lorangriel 14:55, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Sanchi - you are banned, do we really have to bother with a checkuser and waste everyone's time? if you want to come back - make the case on your page. --Fredrick day 22:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Warhammer and Warhammer 40k are arguably the best established miniature wargames on the market world-wide. That fact alone makes the article notable. Should we think about merging this article with the overall Tyranid article? I won't argue with the in-universe tag because I think it definitely needs to be there. I have tried to rewrite parts of the article to make it more encyclopedic, but I think I failed miserably. Any help would be appreciated. On a related note: who is Sanchi, why is he banned and how does that fact relate to this discussion? Lorangriel 14:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

"[W]ho is Sanchi[?]": I wondered that, too.

I am not arguing that Warhammer is not notable. I am suggesting that not everything about it is notable automatically. Things have to be notable sort of "on their own", and I don't think this article clears that bar. If somebody wrote a paper about how the Tyranid hive fleets are similar to the behavior of a family of tropical bees that consume all the resources in an area and then move on, which was published in an academic journal, that might make it notable. If someone took the metaphor of the Tyranid hive fleet and made a separate game about it, that might make this specific topic notable.

I'm not an expert. I can't help you improve this article. I clicked on it because it was in the Did You Know? section on the front page. I thought that it was not up to snuff, so I tagged it, in the sincere hope that somebody who knew something about it would come along and fix it up. But I really don't care any more. You can all do what you like; certainly you were going to anyway.--Capn ed 15:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem with "Warhammer is notable so this entry is notable" is that it could extend to any minor page. The entry has to be shown to be notable in it's own right.

Sanchi is a user who was banned for their widescale disruption and issues with... just about everything and everyone. Fredrick Day brings it up because a number of anonymous editors on this page may be him. The issue is being looked into at the moment and shouldn't ditract from the main thrust of the discussion amongst we legitimate editors ;)

So with that in mind I'd suggest our best bet would be to put this up as a merge with Tyranids. The history section already gives details of the hive fleets and it looks to me like a lot of informaiton is being replicated and the rest from here can easily be slotted in over there. (Emperor 15:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC))

I tend to agree. A quick scan of the Tyranids page shows a fair bit of replication of information. Lets do our best to clean up this article and merge it with that page. Lorangriel 15:52, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Note it has been confirmed that a number of the editors here were Sanchi Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/SanchiTachi so we need to check the various edits and possibly take some of thier above discssion with a suitable pinch of salt.

At least we can now carry on and get this issue sorted. Lorangriel seems in favour of a merge proposal - what does everyone else think? (Emperor 00:07, 2 June 2007 (UTC))

And here I only advised the original editor on the copyvio thing. Merging is a perfectly acceptable course of action. Such details are mostly fluff and can be truncated/integrated fairly easily. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Merging seems reasonable. Earlier today, I put a note on the W40K Project talk page about this article, so others might potentially weigh in on this. --GentlemanGhost 02:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merging work to be done

I have been reading the main Tyranids page and it seems that the only information that needs to be copied is the "battlefleet gothic" section. Everything else is stated in enough detail (in fact in certain places, *too much* detail) on the main tyranids page. I will get to work on that. Any help will be appreciated. Lorangriel 14:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Tyranid prowler.gif

Image:Tyranid prowler.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 08:43, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Tyranid stalker.gif

Image:Tyranid stalker.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 00:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Razorfiend.gif

Image:Razorfiend.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 17:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)