Talk:Typeface

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[edit] Archive

If it isn't on this talk page it's in one of the archives.Talk:Typeface/archive1
Arbo talk 02:18, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Faux fonts

I think this statement is confused:

"Arabic, Chinese, Hebrew, Japanese and Sanskrit are all readily available in faux fonts."

I think what the article is trying to say is that Latin fonts that imitate these scripts are readily available. One way to say it might be,

"Latin fonts that look like Arabic, Chinese, Hebrew, Japanese, or Sanskrit are widely available."

66.157.122.153 03:55, 7 January 2007 (UTC)Steve Wise

[edit] Ironic?

Last line of the article: "Most other western countries extend copyright protection to typeface designs. Ironically, this means that typefaces designed in a Berne Convention signatory country will be protected in the United States." I may be missing something here, but how is that ironic? Foxmulder 03:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

looks to me as though it's ironic because in the us the typeface itself is not subject to copyright, (though the pixle points that form the outline are), but if a typeface is designed in a country where they uphold Berne Convention rules, that typeface is then subject to copyright in the U.S.

So the irony is that a typeface cannot be copyright(ed) in the U.S., but other countrys (c) will be upheld in the U.S. This is new to me, so this is purely my take on the text. I suppose this could be clairified for a non-legal reader... Crocadillion 13:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not ironic, it's incorrect. I've updated it. Terry Carroll 01:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! that's great... I'm not an attorney, nor do I have much flair for legal research, so I was just hoping to clarify what was written before on this talk page. What you've written seems much more logical than the previous version. Crocadillion 12:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm afraid that I know far more about U.S. copyright law as applied to typeface than any normal human being should. I wrote a law review article[1] on the subject ages ago, when I was still a law student. Terry Carroll 20:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proportion

This section makes good points but it's not very good to illustrate the two varieties with the words "Proportional" and "Monospace". Much better to use the same word; I'd suggest "proportional". Why? The letters in "monospace" are all the same width, whether in proportional or monospace fonts. The illustration should have a number of letters which are narrow in proportional fonts. Then, the two versions (proportional and monospace) would better illustrate the differences between the two. Interlingua talk email 02:14, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

If one was to not use both of the words in the demo, I would suggest going with an entirely different word, one which would really show the difference between monospace and proportional, like the word "little" as the narrow characters will definately show the difference in letterspacing without a shadow of a doubt. Crocadillion 13:40, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Using 'proportional' and 'monospace' unfortunately does not emphasize the difference. I checked 'quick brown fox' in arial and courier new and this provides a far larger difference between the two than using the example words shown. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 03:46, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please clarify jargon; Font/Typeface/Font Family

I have a good familiarity with the concepts for a layman, but the definitions are difficult to figure out:

If I want to discuss Helvetica, including all point sizes, bold, italic, etc., what am I discussing? It does not seem to fit any of the terms:

  • Typeface: "... a visual appearance or style not immediately reducible to any one foundry's production or proprietary control."
  • Font: "... 8-point Caslon is one font, and 10-point Caslon is another."
  • Font Family: "Times is a font family, whereas Times Roman, Times Italic and Times Bold are individual fonts making up the Times family." (That doesn't match the definition of font, above).

66.92.53.49 21:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Helvetica is a typeface. There are numerous fonts of Helvetica, such as 18-pt Helvetica 55, 36-pt Helvetica 95, etc. When referring to a number of different fonts, or the body of variations within the face, this is the font family. Typeface and family are similar concepts, however the face refers to the overall general style, while the family usually is referring to the multiple variations within the face (italics, bold, semibold, etc). It is a little confusing. In common parlance, 'font' means the same thing as typeface, or refers to a specific digital file on your computer (which may or may not include italics/bold variations, and usually contains multiple pt sizes). Hope this helps.-Andrew c 21:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Andrew. A few points:
  1. What I forgot to say was, if I don't understand it -- and I know a good amount about the subject for a layperson -- then it seems unlikely that novice readers will understand it, so some revision might help.
  2. When you say "Helvetica is a typeface", doesn't that contradict the article which defines it as, "a visual appearance or style not immediately reducible to any one foundry's production or proprietary control." AFAIK, Helvetica (and if not Helvetica, then many other typefaces) is subject to one foundry's control. Perhaps the article needs revision?
  3. To clarify: Font family is a superset of typeface, which is a superset of fonts?
  4. Proposed for the article (but someone with expertise needs to vet it):
For example, when someone says they are using Helvetica 14 point, and Helvetica Italic 14 point, then,
  • The font family is Helvetica.
  • The typefaces are Helvetica and Helvetica Italic.
  • The fonts are Helvetica 14 point, and Helvetica Italic 14 point.
66.92.53.49 03:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
In response to User 66.92.53.49's statement of "typefaces", yes, a typeface is Helvetica. However, Helvetica Italic is a typestyle.
204.38.59.249 21:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
I follow most, but not all, of CApitol3's statement below. However, if CApitol3 could write some text for the article, I think it would solve the problem. 66.92.53.49 18:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moving target of terminology

Some of the terms being discussed/used are so new, they do not show up in even contemporary books on type. In a very noble manner Wikipedia encourages editors to write toward the average person not the doctorate student. That said, in the area of type what often comes on board is a subset of language that comes largely from the world of the PC, Microsoft products, and those who develop them. Example "superset" does not show up in the very accessible Thinking with Type, by Ellen Lupton, Lewis Blackwell's 20th-Century Type, or Robin Dodd's From Gutenberg to Open Type. All either published in the last 2 years, or a new edition published in the last 2 years. Unfortunately attempts to gently push the naming conventions toward their historic typographic roots, and bring them closer to those terms typeface designers use, are frequently perceived as elitism (or arcane) rather than an opportunity.

To put this in some perspective, type has been around since 1450, digital type since about 1978, and fonts accessible in every office and many homes since about 1990. While I don't expect we should expect contemporary people to stop using the word font and start using the word typeface taking some of terminology from the type profession could make Wikipedia type-related more definitive, and in line what is taught in basic typography courses in North America, Europe, and the rest of the world using our alphabet.

I teach typography to graphic design and fine arts students. The curriculum in type 1 is basic, and pretty similar school to school. Typeface and font are today used interchangeably. But the roots of font are as a full character set in a single point size for a single weight of a single typeface. The example immediately above is perfect. A typeface is legally pretty much a name for a particular design. The design, like Garamond, Helvetica, or Didot may have several, or many versions. Example, Garamond: Adobe Garamond, Garamond 3, Simoncini Garamond, ITC Garamond, or Stempel Garamond. A font family or typeface family is a group of related types with variations within. Like human families, some are quite large (Univers, Helvetica Neue, or Thesis) or fairly small (Bulmer). The larger families may include multiple widths, condensed through extended, and multiple weights, all possibly in roman and italic. Some typeface families like FF Scala or Rotis have related variations that are serif, sans-serif and a mix of both. CApitol3 12:37, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please explain realist vs. humanist

Several articles about individual typefaces describe their subjects as "realist" (e.g. Akzidenz Grotesk) or "humanist" (e.g. Gill Sans), without explaining what these terms mean. It would be helpful if the difference was explained someplace, and this article seems like the best place. Our disambiguation page Humanist does include a brief explanation - "in typography, a group of sans-serif typefaces with some calligraphic features, such as Humana, Optima, Frutiger, Johnston, Gill Sans, and the like" - but more background would be great. Thanks, FreplySpang 15:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the articles need links to VOX-ATypI classification? --Hebisddave 16:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Definitely! FreplySpang 20:39, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] distinguishing by legal status

I removed the portion in the intro that distinguishes between a font and typeface based on their respective legal protections. It's inaccurate in a couple ways.

First, the level of protection varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Many European countries, for example, afford copyright protection to typefaces. Second, even within the US, typefaces may be protected by design patent. Terry Carroll 14:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pitch

Do you think that information on 'Pitch' should be included in the subsection 'Proportion' or as a separate sub-section of 'Typeface anatomy'? (ext link for a glossary reference, though not one I would include in an article)

I bring this up in relation to Characters Per Inch having been nominated for deletion via WP:PROD. If information in that article could be incorporated into here, the article could be merged here and removed from the PROD-deletion workstream. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 03:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

i would like to see pixel/screen fonts referenced under the types of typefaces. also think that the expression types of typefaces somewhat redundant. Why not "categories of typefaces". wont do the edits myself for i do not consider myself knoweledgeable enough to do so. nor have the time to become.

cheers! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.54.92.233 (talk) 21:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Roman-centric?

Why is there no mention of Greek and Cyrillic typefaces? The variety can be seen at [2] and [3] but there's no discussion in the article. EamonnPKeane 19:58, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, other families, such as Heisei Mincho (an East-Asian font) are not discussed. Really, their discussion of typefaces is not so much about the letters displayed, but the shapes they assume graphically. Special font families are developed for foreign languages, but they often include other alphabets as well, such as Heisei Mincho, a font that can display Japanese, Chinese, and English alphabets. Also, some Unicode-compliant fonts, such as Times New Roman, include Cyrillic, Greek, Arabic, and Hebrew symbols. Thereby making language a subset of family, not vice-versa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BANZ111 (talk • contribs) 06:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC) Oh yes, forgot to sign. At least the bot caught it. BANZ111 06:42, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Break off Monospaced

Because of the use of monospaced typefaces in computer applications, it should indeed be discussed in full within its own article, especially since equal credence is given to serif and sans-serif faces. BANZ111 06:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Font

Does anyone know what Wikipedia’s font is? Luke 18:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

It's Hoefler Text. See meta:Logo.-Andrew c [talk] 18:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, that's the logo's font, but does anyone know what the font is for the body text in articles? Voyaging (talk) 00:57, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
If you are using the default stylesheet, monobook, then the text is set to render as "san-serif", which means the default san-serif text on your computer/browser. On my set up, Arial is the typeface that is rendered. I can't be certain what you are seeing on your machine (especially if you are no using Windows XP/Firefox, if you have have changed your user stylesheet). Hope this helps. If you don't think it's Arial, then you could post a screenshot of the text to perhaps the computing reference desk (WP:RD). Hope this helps. -Andrew c [talk] 14:42, 18 March 2008 (UTC)