User talk:Tyomitch

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1 Windows screenshots
2 Secn break for easier editing
3 Non-free use disputed for Image:Via-logo.gif
4 Win 98 sshot
5 Fair use rationale for Image:Minimo WinCE.png
6 Your userpage
7 Your Screen shots
8 Will you PLEASE leave that article alone?
9 Orphaned non-free media (Image:GTA3 Dodo.jpg)
10 Talk:Windows 2000
11 Yes, indeed.
12 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Windows Logo (horz).svg
13 Fair use rationale for Image:Access2.png
14 Fair use rationale for Image:VB cover.png
15 Orphaned non-free media (Image:Pocket Internet Explorer.png)
16 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Brad Silverberg.jpg
17 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:VBA logo.jpg
18 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Windows 2000 BSoD.png
19 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Windows NT 3.5 BSoD.png
20 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Windows NT 3.5.png
21 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:WinCE3.png
22 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:FrontPage98.png
23 Possibly unfree Image:ArabicAZERTY.jpg
24 Possibly unfree Image:ArabicQWERTY.jpg
25 Speedy deletion of Image:Najeeb Halaby.jpg
26 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:PrinceofPersia-Mac.png
27 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:PrinceOfPersia computer game.png
28 Replaceable fair use Image:Minimo WinCE.png
29 Image copyright problem with Image:Active Channels.png
30 Fair use rationale for Image:Accolade.png
31 Fair use rationale for Image:Active Channels.png

[edit] Windows screenshots

Is there any consensus and/or accepted guidelines telling that screenshots must display empty desktops with no applications running? --tyomitch 19:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. No offense, but I'd take a screenshot with an empty desktop over a screenshot with a very crowded desktop any day. If you can take a screenshot that's in between the one you uploaded and the one with an empty desktop, it would be nice. Maybe with a Windows Explorer window and the start menu open. Not too crowded, but illustrates the point. Just a suggestion. — Alex^(U|C|E) 23:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Theres no written rule anywhere. But thats the preferred shot. The desktop (with taskbar and optionally start menu) is what users see when the first boot windows and thus forms the identity of Windows. When it is cluttered with other windows, it forms a mix of the operating environment and other applications, and thus no longer represents "the Windows Operating Environment". As such, this is discouraged. Also, per fair use, if it has shots of other applications, it can only be used alongside discussion of *all* the applications, neither as the main screenshot of an OS article, nor alongside discussion of a subset of the running applications.

Also, a cluttered desktop is not very aesthetic. As such, unwritten consensus is with empty desktop. There has been lot of discussions, but unfortunately, none of them centralized but distributed across talk pages of various articles and users. --soum ^talk 06:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, when you are writing something in Notepad, you are using *Notepad* not *Windows*. True, Windows is working behind the scenes, but it is not *you* who are using Windows, rather the *application* is using the services provided by the operations to present *its own identity*. The *components of Windows* have their own identity, separate from the *identity of Windows*. Windows wont cease to exist if the applications are not run. And the applications *can* be ported to other OSs (legalities and politics aside). Their identities are their own, and as such not to be mixed up. True, without the applications that are *distributed* as part of Windows, the experience wouldnt be same. But they do not form the *idnentity*, they form the *experience*. Hope I didnt lose you in wordplay. :D

That aside, like I already said, per fair use when a screenshot has discrete components with their individual identities, it cannot be used to visually identify *any one* of them. It can only be used alongside discussion of *all of them together* (the exception is only when such screenshots cannot be made; like for an unreleased software). And a cluttered shot is not only not aesthetic to look at, discrete screenshots for each component provides much more detail. If they are tried to be crammed into one frame, it fails to show any one of them properly. Thats why things are tried to be kept as simple as possible. This applies to individual screenshots as well. We always try to present an uncustomized screen, without any generated content. If there is some specific feature that needs to be shown, we make a separate screenshot for them.

Btw, which screenshot are we talking about? --soum ^talk 06:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The screenshot looks cluttered because of the windows. IMO, the clock with the start menu open (no nested menus, as there is nothing of note there) would be fine. Provided the clock is at least talked about in the article. Was it a part of default install? --soum ^talk 07:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with all the things said above. - Ta bu shi da yu 11:55, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Windows XP came with Service Pack 2 in its CD integrated. However, Windows 2000 was never integrated with SP4. A Raider Like Indiana 15:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

That's fine. I was just wondering or not that the Win2k screen shot should be the RTM installation without a Service Pack. I will not revert it. A Raider Like Indiana 16:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Secn break for easier editing

"The screenshot looks cluttered because of the windows."

Image:Windows_XP.PNG, used at the top of a FA, displays three windows (and no start menu btw). It's even used in a screenshot gallery at Luna (theme), is that acceptable fair-use? All my screenshot galleries were deleted under the claim that it isn't.

Case can be made for explorer, as it forms a very integral form of the shell. As such, under fair use, this image could be accepted. Except for the thumbnail of the lotus or whatever picture it is. MS has given us rights to use the image, not to relicense it under GFDL. Since the image isnt talked about, it is not covered by fair use either.

However, its not all policy. I personally would prefer an image with either the vanilla desktop or with at most one explorer window open. And I believe many others would too. However, displaying copyrighted images in a gallery or list is an absolute no-no, as that is merely decorative. --soum ^talk 09:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

"(no nested menus, as there is nothing of note there)"

The current version, the one people keep reverting to, displays exactly the same nested menus as mine.

Thats not because it is preferred, but because thats the closest alternative to what we want. If you can provide a better one, of course it will be kept.

"Provided the clock is at least talked about in the article."

Done --tyomitch 09:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I am also seeing you are depressed because all of your screenshot uploads have been deleted. By checking the deletion log, most were deleted because they were either of out oof date versions (like beta versions) or had no justification of why it is suitable under fair use. Not because they weren't suitable. I sincerely hope these words can work as wiki-anti-depressants. :P --soum ^talk 09:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The new screenshot is better, thanks. By the way, I asked User:Sherool, he might be able to bring your screenshots back. — Alex^(U|C|E) 19:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

7 of them where recoverable, the last one had been deleted before 16 June 2006 when they implemented image undeletion. I've e-mailed them to the gmail adress mentioned on your userpage. --Sherool (talk) 22:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah the FU policy has grown draconian over time. But as soon as an image is removed from an article, its not speedily deleted. Its kept orphanned for a week. And in most cases a bot does notify you. If you werent notified before, it probably was because the bot wasnt as active then. --soum ^talk 07:20, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

No problem, glad I could help. By the way, are you still wikidepressed? Your user page says you are. — Alex^(U|C|E) 20:41, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I guess so, just point him to the discussion. — Alex^(U|C|E) 09:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

IMO, with so many nested menus and all the zillion icons, the screenshot looks real crowded. Its best to leave the vanilla desktop shot (with perhaps may be the top level menu of the start menu open). And create another screenshot of Windows Explorer with only a handful files present in the window and add that to the article. I personally would prefer having a media file among them and have it selected so that the left-pane mounted playback controls are visible. AFAIR, no other windows version has them. So that does demonstrate something pretty unique. --soum ^talk 09:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, screw all the guess work, I have a suggestion to make. My idea while taking Vista screenshots was to make it look like when the system first booted up, right? (JamesWeb's screenshot is based on the same concept.) My suggestion is have the window shown here open, in addition to the start menu. That would make it look as though the OS was just installed. By the way, make sure the Start Menu isn't too cluttered. — Alex^(U|C|E) 09:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I just hope you're not offended by any of this... Seems kinda tough, having your screenshots deleted and then others criticizing your current screenshots. Don't feel bad about it, this is just Wikipedia. — Alex^(U|C|E) 09:36, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I feel that it's too crowded. The start menu doesn't reflect Windows 2000 - why not show it running the mmc, a command prompt, the run menu and a few open windows? It doesn't need the menu. - Ta bu shi da yu 11:48, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Non-free use disputed for Image:Via-logo.gif

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[edit] Win 98 sshot

Frankly, I cannot totally remember how 98 looked like (I'm confusing with Me) :D. But yeah, the channel bar sounds a good idea. But was it 98 only or could be used anywhere with Active Desktop enabled? --soum ^talk 14:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Then it would be a good idea. The shot could also be used in the Active Desktop article. --soum ^talk 14:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Minimo WinCE.png

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[edit] Your userpage

Your userpage was the only page using {{caps}} (for some reason a copy of {{smallcaps}}) - I substed it to make way for a template that will make text appear in full caps. — Bob • (talk) • 05:01, July 30, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your Screen shots

Do you take your own Windows OS screen shots? Because some of them are impressive. Especially the now ancient Windows 3.11 For Work groups. But others seem to cluttered with active windows and the start menu. Overall, very impressive. A Raider Like Indiana 04:54, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Will you PLEASE leave that article alone?

Tyomitch, the only thing that you have contributed to the Windows 2000 article is a change to the first screenshot, which was controversial anyway and to be honest, not necessary at all. Perhaps do some real work on the article before making changes like that one? Sheesh. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:27, 11 August 2007 (UTC) (who basically got the article from Not Very Good to Featured Article and the Main page).

I have just reread that comment and I apologise. I guess I'm just frustrated with minor changes being made to that article. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:00, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair call I suppose. Like I say, I was frustrated. I apologise, what I said above was uncalled for. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Talk:Windows 2000

Hello, it looks like I'm getting reverted by two editors, User:Ta bu shi da yu and User:Astroview120mm on Windows 2000. Could you add your two cents to the talk page of Windows 2000? --tyomitch 14:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

This is exactly why I'm sick of Wikipedia. I left my comments on the talk page, hopefully they'll stop it. — Alex^(U|C|E) 00:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your support! --tyomitch 04:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

No problem, glad I could help. I just wish I understood why they don't like your screenshot. — Alex^(U|C|E) 07:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yes, indeed.

Indeed, editors don't own the articles they contribute to, nor do they own things such as images. This is true. However, in my opinion, editors who have contributed a great deal to an article should be at least listened to with a little respect. Are you aware that I spent almost 100 man-hours researching and writing that article to get it to FA status? Does this not mean anything to you? Or are you so disdainful of someone's hard work that you believe it doesn't matter? Reputation is why a great many people edit Wikipedia. For instance, I would not barge into the Evolution article and just try to change things willy nilly. I would propose my changes first, or if I wanted to I would edit the article and then if it was controversial and an editor with a good reputation and who showed good work was unhappy with the material, then I would revert the work and take it to the talk page. So yes, I don't own the article and in fact I've never claimed as much. But then again, I am one of the primary editors who did a great deal of research for the article (hours and hours for that matter) and I got it to FA status. I only want people to understand that it's not like I have no experience or expertise in this article. I have good reasons for not wanting a cluttered screenshot, which I have outlined on the talk page!

As for your comment that you are going round in circles about legal talk with me, I'm just wondering why you posted the comment "otherwise the thumbnail is too blurry, and stuffing too many objects into the screenshot makes the fair-use claim fainter". I posted my fair use comments after you posted yours, largely in response to this comment. Perhaps you should consider whether you have a proper understanding of fair use before making such statements? It's immensely unfair and rather missing the point that you should decide to focus on my discussions of fair use, particularly when you were the first one to even make any mention of this area.

Perhaps if you could address the points as they are raised, that might be nice. If you don't like talking about fair use, please feel free not to discuss the issue. I'm quite happy for the discussion to cease, but if you insist on giving an interpretation of the doctrine then I will also give my interpretation. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean I can't talk about it. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes indeed, you may certainly cease talking about fair use any time you wish. However, it's a bit unfair for you to argue stenuously about copyright then decide to pack up your bags and go home! I asked a reasonable question about your question about copyright, then you said that you were a "broken record" and that you weren't going to talk about the topic any more.

I am not saying you can't edit a featured article, not at all. Well, I did imply this in a previous message, and I apologise for that. I was a bit hot under the collar. That was my fault, and I genuinely regret what I said to you. However, all I'm asking is for you to take into account what I'm saying! The screenshots are too cluttered. Not even Warrens thinks that they are a good idea. - Ta bu shi da yu 15:15, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Windows Logo (horz).svg

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