User talk:Twir

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[edit] conceit

I can't come to agree with either supposition--that "conceit" is an "obscure or expert" word, or that "concept" is a suitable replacement for it. I'll address the latter point first.

"Conceit", while a cognate, is not a synonym of "concept". They have slightly different shades of meaning. A concept is merely an idea. A conceit is something quirky, fancifcul, a fad, a whim. A concept is straightforward, but there's something funny to a conceit--a twist, an affectation, a pretension. Notions are concepts, but puns, quips, witticisms are conceits. They become the craze, the rage, the fashion, the furore, because they are the "new thing". Concepts might be old, commonplace, de rigueur, even passé or dull, but not conceits, which are eccentric attributes. "Concept" doesn't have the right implication of meaning to describing a novel element of a game, which is what that sentence is trying to accomplish.

As to the word's alleged obscurity, if it is obscure, it is not because the word is merely an anachronism. While the word's meaning of "fanciful or witty notion" dates from 1513, [1] I can't find an instance of Shakespeare using the word this way, though he did use "conceit" commonly to mean one's self-conception, one's vanity. (Today we still refer to a stuck-up person as "conceited".) Nor is the term strictly technical. It has been used by popular authors in works meant for and appreciated popularly, from the greats of literature to the bestsellers on the charts today:

• Mark Twain, the quintessential populist American author, numerous times used the word with the same meaning intended in the Jeopardy! article ("something conceived that is novel or unique"), as in Chapter 59 of Life on the Mississippi: [2] "'The Undying Head' is a rather long tale, but it makes up in weird conceits, fairy-tale prodigies, variety of incident, and energy of movement, for what it lacks in brevity."
• Charles Dickens, England's popular writer who wrote for the masses, also used the word in the same meaning as in the Jeopardy! article, as for example in "A Christmas Tree":[3] "...evermore this jocular conceit will live in my remembrance fresh and unfading, overtopping all possible jokes, unto the end of time."
• Michael Pollan uses it with the same meaning it has in the Jeopardy! article 12 times in his The Omnivore's Dilemma, [4] for example, in the sentence "Only later would the health benefits of these whole foods be recognized, not the first or last time an organic conceit would find scientific backing" (page 144). Omnivore's Dilemma isn't an "obscure" or "expert" or even a technical text. It's a popular work written for a popular audience by a journalist. Even two years after its publication it's #36 on Amazon.com's bestseller list. This was a book that was meant to become, and succeeded in becoming, a bestseller. If "conceit" was such an unknown word, why wouldn't Pollan's editor(s) have excised it with the same objections you have over the word? If they thought nobody would know this word, why didn't they catch it? Why hasn't the offending obscurity been rewritten in re-editions?

If you really oppose the use of this word, which I see come up again and again in my reading and never get flustered over, then please don't simply replace it with the word "concept". It's not a worthy replacement. If I could reword the sentence so that it had the same meaning and was more amenable to those who are unfamiliar with a variety of words, I would do so. But I can't think of a more suitable noun to describe generally what "questioning answers" is that fits the same sentence pattern. I know when to admit defeat. I'll leave the rest up to you. Robert K S (talk) 07:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Well I have to admit, you've presented some very compelling reasons. I even have to agree with you one particular point, and that is that concept is clearly the wrong word. That being said, the word conceit despite having modern usage (as in the Pollan example) is generally confusing despite its modern usage (as in the Pollan example.) However, it may not be possible to find a better word or phrase to replace it. If I do, I'll at least post my proposed change in the talk page. Thanks for putting together such a compelling response.Twir (talk) 17:27, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

As Twain said, "The difference between the almost right word & the right word is really a large matter—it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning." Robert K S (talk) 17:42, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

You don't mind if every time I chance across the word I make a little note of it here, do you? :-) Well, if you do, I can transplant the conversation elsewhere. Robert K S (talk) 10:16, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Haha, nah--I don't mind really. Besides, it's not like my talk page gets a lot of use. ;-) Twir (talk) 22:31, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

• 2008-02-29 13:49:03 Ken Jennings uses the word in a post to his message board. [5]