Talk:Twinkle Twinkle Little Star

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[edit] Translation, Please?

Would it have killed you to provide an English translation of the "original" French lyrics on the English page of this article (rather than a link to a translation into *German*)???? My own French skills got me about 3/4th of it, but there's still a bunch that I'm flailing at....

(oh, and I don't see why someone below asserts that the dirai-je is not a question. Sure reads like a (rhetorical) question to me!)

[edit] Fixed

I fixed the English translation of "la longue antienne." That's not "la langue ancienne" to be translated as "the/an ancient tongue" as it was previously. There's even a note explaining what 'antienne' means, so I don't really get why this mistake was there. Karasuman 02:45, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

it's not Shall I tell you, Mother?. I haven't worked out what it is yet, but it's certainly not a question. Translation is a funny thing. -- Tarquin

Both grammar styles are found on the net, "dirais-je" and "dirai-je". First is "conditionnel", while the second is "future". But, given the story told by the song, the first one is most probably the right one. And is the one that is usually found in books.

I'm not sure it necessarily makes more sense to use conditional rather than future in the story. In fact, "dirai-je" is the only form I have seen given for the title of Mozart's variations, and the phrase "ah vous dirai-je maman" also gets more hits on Google. This is complicated, of course, by the fact that for many French people today, they sound the same. Lesgles 18:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Why does he say "vous" to his mother? -phma

It would be seriously impolite to use "tu" to one's mother. That practice is very modern. The quote is dated 1761 in the article. Eclecticology

The tune is variously described as written in 1761 and a folk melody. Can it be both? Or is it possible that the tune predates even the French words? David Brooks 20:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] fabulous article

congrats wikipedians, this article is a gem, thanks Spencerk 07:11, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New parody

I stand by my comment that this is probably not a parody of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, and is not worth noting, but it's far too trivial a point to have an edit war about. --Poetlister 11:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ilfracombe

Somebody has added to the Ilfracombe article that this song was written by someone whilst visiting there. Any ideas if this might be true? Cheers JHJPDJKDKHI! 08:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No sample?

I'm surprised we have the sheet music but no sample. We should have a midi, and probably an Ogg as well... Nil Einne 16:28, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I added a sample of Tema of Variations on "Ah vous dirais-je, Maman" by Mozart, which is the basic melody of Twinkle Twinkle. --Ldnew 15:02, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scientific version

I removed this sentence and put in a link to the John Carson 'scintillate scintillate' as it is probably copyright. The John Carson one is not 'scientific' it just uses longer words. There is a 'scientific' version:

[...]

by Lewis Fry Richardson or Ian D. Bush, but this is probably also copyright. ChristineD 13:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

  • If it's a "probable copyvio" it shouldn't appear in Wikipedia, not even on a talk page (sorry about that);
  • Could you give the date the Carson version was written?
  • All I know about him is the web page I directed to. The web page is not very well organised, for example they don't say who John Carson was (a poet? someone who whose only claim to fame is writing one rhyme?) and they don't give a date. ChristineD 21:40, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Added birth and death date of the author. This may be a "non-notable" alternate version. Wouldn't object its removal from the article. --Francis Schonken 22:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't have anything specific to add in favour of it's notability. Nevertheless I saw it quoted on a writing course (as an example of how simple language is better) and the scintillate version stuck as I liked it. I think it's notable enough that other people might also like the chance to look it up.
  • I know the argument 'but other things are less notable so my bit should stay' has very dubious validity, but I feel that this reference is at least AS important?/notable? as some of the pop culture references, especially the Degrassi one. So my point would be if you have to delete this reference then trim down the others too.
  • However I vote to keep the John Calder link. ChristineD 23:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Could you give a clear reference to where the Richardson/Bush version can be found? When was it written? --Francis Schonken 14:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Various versions of twinkle are here http://bcn.boulder.co.us/~neal/poetry/twinkle.html this is all I know about it.
  • Well, if that's all that is known about that version, it should neither be copied nor linked to from the article: thoroughly unclear copyright situation. No idea whether this variant is in any way "notable". --Francis Schonken 22:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree, which is partially why I originally removed the mention of a 'scientific' version and only mentioned this link (and only on the talk page) when you asked about it. ChristineD 23:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
  • What are the legal and/or moral issues involved in not quoting copyright material, but in linking to an external page that quotes copyvio stuff for you? Obviously the Carson link must be ok as that is his family's website who presumably inherited the copyright. That is why I included the Carson link but not a link to the 'scientific' version in the article. If something cannot be attributed what happens to the copyright?
  • Don't link to (likely) copyvio pages. I thought you had it from a book or so. If something is notable, you'd be able to find non-copyvio versions of it. Or to put it otherwise: Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Copyrights are "notability" thresholds too. --Francis Schonken 22:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can the Dutch Version be deleted?

This has nothing to do with the rhyme 'twinkle twinkle little star'. And I think that mentioning every (or any) song sung to the same rhyme as this song is beyond the remit of this article. ChristineD 13:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no clear feelings about it:
  1. It has some interest, while it is generally considered a children's rhyme (that's how it is tought in schools), but apparently has a second meaning (I, for one, always wondered what the symbolic meaning of the name "Kortjakje" was, and didn't know until someone else posted this explanation, with an external reference). It is at least interesting while in all other languages the "naughty" versions seem quite separated from the "innocent" children's versions.
  2. The whole article seems to err a bit far from wikipedia:don't include copies of primary sources... Not sure whether it is exactly the Dutch version we should delete now, but I think a large part of the present content can be moved to Wikisource:, with a link to these "primary sources". --Francis Schonken 14:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Update: the external link regarding the explanation on the Dutch version has been removed (as far as I could check this removal was justified in this particular case, apart from the general reasons given at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam#Suite101 dot com) --Francis Schonken 22:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The dutch song is sung to the same melody as "Twinkle twinkle little star", so you cannot say they have nothing to do with each other. Obviously, the French "Ah! vous dirai-je Maman" and "Twinkle twinkle" have different lyrics as well, but share the same melody. It's as easy as that: either you focus on the melody, then it is all one song, or you focus on the lyrics, then you will have no interwiki links at all. I am in favour of the first spproach, because the songs are internationally linked together by Mozart's variations: once you discover, that it is all the same song, it is quite interesting, on which rhymes it is sung in different countries. --FordPrefect42 21:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] William Blake

IMHO The Star is probably a parody of or inspired by William BLAKE - The Tyger

Jonathan Robin

[edit] What a wonderful world

ok I'll give this another try... I think what a wonderful world is "inspired" by twinkle twinkle little star. I found midi files and combined them, the melodies and song structures totally match, except that what a wonderful world has a slower tempo. I uploaded the combined midi here: http://midishrine.com/midi/11702.mid . Decide for yourself and include this info in the article if you want. I'm not gonna edit the article itself since my edits were reverted before. Thank you. 85.103.227.104 21:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

It may well be true that What a Wonderful World was inspired by Twinkle, Twinkle... but if no one else has made the connection before, then we can't be the first to do so. See the no original research rule. Nareek 21:54, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't find any direct connection. However, I think 85.103.227.104 might be onto something. In Baca, Maria. (August 28, 2004) Star Tribune An Essay: Worshiping at the Farmers Market. Section: News; Page 7B., the article discusses "Alphonse, a musician in an African kofia hat, who launches into a signature high-energy guitar riff every time he sees us coming. ... he plays "What a Wonderful World," "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star," and the ABC song, all with his own bluesy flair." It seems that Alphonse made a connection between these three songs. Also, see Zorn, Eric. (April 29, 2007) Chicago Tribune Change of Subject. Section: Metro; Page 2. (writing, "The most singable of the top lullabies of all time include "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star," "Hush Little Baby," "Sweet Baby James" and the eerie "Rock a Bye Baby." Harder-to-sing classics include "Golden Slumbers," "Somewhere Over the Rainbow," "What a Wonderful World," "When You Wish Upon a Star" and "Beautiful Dreamer.") -- Jreferee 15:39, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article title

Should the article title be "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star" (with the comma)? That seems to be how it usually is used. The article lead paragraph uses "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star" but the article title lacks any use of commas. -- Jreferee 15:39, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] One more version

Certainly there are lots of versions of this tune around the world and the centuries, but the article doesn't mention one of the most stunning ones: "twinkle" by the US-American band The Residents, which can be heard on their 1980 E.P. "Goosebump"(1). The lyrics seem to be the unaltered classic english ones; the melody is also recognizable, but the arrangement... the version is quite mad, but still beautifull (just as childhood is, isn't it?)

(1) This E.P. is also available as bonus tracks in a CD-edition of the 1978 "Duck Stab" album.

fulano201.236.159.49 22:14, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin

Perhaps it's just a chance correspondence, but Arbeau's "Aridan" branle from 1588/1589 has all but the first two notes of the first line of this song, albeit transposed and with a break measure inserted between the two phrases. Look at the ninth measure in e.g. this and this arrangement. - B.Bryant 01:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] french translation for mignons

Mignon means "cute" or "darling". It the noun form its "darlings" or "dainty ones". Its a fairly common word that doesn't usually imply a cut of steak when used by itself. I realize the lyrics are rather silly, but the parenthetical "filet" in the translation doesn't look right at all. Can someone come up with a better translation? Thanks. DavidRF (talk) 15:07, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed external link to seminal performance

I have for the second time removed a link to a seminal performance, first introduced by 86.157.119.247 on 5 January 2008, and again by 86.129.136.179 on 19 January 2008. Both these accounts seem to be single-purpose accounts to promote the linked site.

I have removed the link because

  1. it's description is WP:POV;
  2. the file is subject to copyright (which is on its own OK, but together with the other points makes the link unsuitable);
  3. the link is insufficient: it leads to a page of text without any clear navigation to the file in question;
  4. it doesn't belong into this article, which is about the nursery rhyme, not the variations by Mozart.

Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What...

Why does Twinkle Twinkle Little Bat redirect to this page, when there is a perfectly good page (Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Bat) for it instead?