Talk:Twillingate, Newfoundland and Labrador

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Copyedited by Razorflame – 00:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Good article Twillingate, Newfoundland and Labrador was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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    [edit] Devon---West Country

    "By the winter of 1739, there were 152 people - the "livyers" or permanent settlers - living in Twillingate. They were mostly fishermen and their families from the West Country in England."

    The sentence originally read "Devon". This is a common misconception, so I have changed it to read "West Country" because surname and family history research in this area of Notre Dame Bay demonstrates that the original settlers in Twillingate came mainly from Dorset with some incomers from the neighbouring counties of Hampshire, Wiltshire, and Devon.

    [edit] Merge

    Someone has recently created new articles called Twillingateabout and Toulinguet (which is about the history of this place). I think at this time this info would be better served as sections of this article, rather then as its own article. So it needs to be merged, history and all. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 15:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Outdated Link

    Dear Site Webmaster/Administrator/Owner

    I am in the process of doing an evaluation and clean-up of the website of the Family History Society of Newfoundland and Labrador.

    My analysis shows that your site has links to our discontinued website "Newfoundland and Labrador Genealogical Society" at URL address http://www3.nf.sympatico.ca/nlgs/. The Society name has been changed to "Family History Society of Newfoundland and Labrador" and our website now resides at URL address http://fhsnl.ca/

    We would greatly appreciate it if you could make an effort to update your site links with the correct name and latest URL address of our Society.

    Thank you, your efforts will be greatly appreciated.

    Sincerely, Kevin Reddigan

    205.251.51.218 16:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] old article

    Article is messy so I'm rewriting. Posting the contents of the last revision (well, the part of it I'm rewriting/removing) here for reference:

    Twillingate is a town of about 3,000 inhabitants situated on two neighbouring islands in northern Newfoundland, accessible from Route 340. It was founded on September 30th, 1965[1]. It's name comes from the French word "Toulinquet" which was given to the islands by French fishermen, who named them after a group of islands off the French coast, near Brest, also called Toulinquet.

    Twillingate is at the mouth of the Exploits River where it flows into Notre Dame Bay. The islands provided an excellent sheltered harbour and easy access to the rich fishing grounds nearby. In recent years a causeway has been built connecting it to the mainland via New World Island.

    Twillingate was probably used as a seasonal fishing port during the 15th and 16th centuries, but there were no recorded European settlers until the 17th century. The native Beothuk managed to survive until the early 19th century in small numbers near Twillingate and the mouth of the Exploits River. By the winter of 1739, there were 152 people - the "livyers" or permanent settlers - living in Twillingate. They were mostly fishermen and their families from the West Country in England.

    As the population grew, Twillingate became an important fishing community - the "Capital of the North." It was a busy trade and service centre for Labrador and the northern shore fisheries for more than two centuries.

    One of the most prominent historical events of Twillingate history was its local newspaper - The Twillingate Sun which served the Twillingate district from the 1880's to 1950's. Today The Pilot, a newspaper published in Lewisporte serves the area with it's "Island's Collection" segment.

    The Sun was a robust and professional newspaper that covered not just local & provincial but international news as well.

    Since the moratorium on fishing northern cod was announced on July 2, 1992, Twillingate has been forced to look to the tourist industry for income and is becoming a popular spot for visitors in the summer. It is now being promoted as the "Iceberg Capital of the World".

    Twillingate is home to a popular summer festival, called the "Fish Fun and Folk Festival". Many tourists from around the world come to take part in the events and concerts held annually.

    The "Fish Fun and Folk Festival" is usually held in the last part of July and has many fun things to do including booths and games at the stadium, entertainment on Thursday & Friday nights, gospel concerts, the ever-popular Split Peas concert, and many more things that are great for the entire family. The festival invites many tourists to the beautiful town and ends with a massive fireworks display. ~NeonFire372~ (talk) 01:19, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Georgina Stirling

    The article should make reference to Georgina Stirling, who was born on Twillingate Island. Just a thought...--HJKeats (talk) 01:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] GA Review

    GA review (see here for criteria)

    This is a nice piece of work, but it still has some shortcomings with respect to the good article criteria.

    1. It is reasonably well written.
      a (prose): b (MoS):
    1. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
      a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
    2. It is broad in its coverage.
      a (major aspects): b (focused):
    3. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
      Fair representation without bias:
    4. It is stable.
      No edit wars etc.:
    5. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
      a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    6. Overall:
      Pass/Fail:
      Good luck improving the articleSriMesh | talk 03:59, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

    My comments seem to either (a) not appear or (b) appear as a response to something they weren't meant to be a response for. I'd appreciate if you could try to fix that since I'm not good with the wikicode and since this is a rather long, code-heavy discussion, I probably inserted things where they shouldn't have been inserted. I fixed most of the suggestions that I could fix,

    A few things I don't understand are the whole image copyright issues. I read the articles you linked to but I still don't understand your request. What exactly do you want me to do with the images? Could you provide info on exactly how to do that?

    Look at Shaktism. There is an image there, where there is credit given the author. (Caption...Shiva and Shakti in the half-male, half-female form of Ardhanari. (Elephanta caves, 5th century CE. Mumbai, India.) Author:Pratheepps)
    I added the author to the first image, and left the other two for you...

    I removed the notable people from Twillingate section altogether - didn't really like it anyway.

    Be careful of removing too many items, the article is scrimpy on the broad in coverage aspect, would be better to flesh out, add, make lists into prose. Ensure as many of the sections from ... Canada WP communties can be added to the article as is possible. would be better to put the famous folk into the article, by enhancing the sections which are standard formatting from Canada WP communties.

    Could you tell me where the spacing between numbers should be fixed (confusing).

    It was the 25.74 square kilometers which needed fixing, so I added the conversion template for square kilometers, then the additional coding is not needed, as the template addresses MoS problems.

    what else I should add to the lead (if anything, I added a short sentence)

    Add more to the lead so it introduces the whole article, so if the reader stops there, they have the summary of the article, but if something intrigues them, then they go on to the section for more detailed information.
    The sentence from the above article in the talk page could be added to the lead...Twillingate is at the mouth of the Exploits River where it flows into Notre Dame Bay. The islands provided an excellent sheltered harbour and easy access to the rich fishing grounds nearby. In recent years a causeway has been built connecting it to the mainland via New World Island.

    and where I've used contractions in the article.Good!.

    Thanks! NeonFire (talk) 11:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Moved GA comments out of template

    Prose/Mos

    • The lead should be expanded. If the article continues to FA, then the lead paragraph is the only introduction to the entire article which is presented on the main page of Wikipedia. This lead does not hold its own to introduce the article. Think of it as a mini encyclopaedia, a micropaedia, and the article as a macropaedia lengthening the topic.
      • Again, could you please elaborate more on exactly what I should add to the lead? NeonFire (talk) 19:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. A good way to do this easily is using conversion templates such as height
    • Avoid contractions such as doesn't spell out does not instead.
    • When driving to Twillingate, one will pass through many other small fishing communities such as Boyd's Cove, Summerford, Virgin Arm and Newville.
    this sentence follows to routes into Twillingate from the west or the east, and no reference is given for the location of these communities = east or west.
    It may serve to say, Between Lewisporte and Twillingate are small fishing communities such as Boyd's Cove, Summerford, Virgin Arm and Newville. or perhaps Between Gander and Twillingate are small fishing communities such as Boyd's Cove, Summerford, Virgin Arm and Newville., whichever the case may be.
    There's only one way (Lewisporte and Gander ways branch into a north-south highway) into the town but I clarified a bit. NeonFire (talk) 11:29, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Twillingate was a prominent fishing community though because of the decline of the fishery, some residents have had to find jobs elsewhere in other industries, however the remaining residents of the town still value the area's culture and traditions in several ways.
    Wheeush! This is a long sentence. Twillingate residents value the area's culture and traditions. Historically Twillingate was a prominent fishing commnity, however due to the decline of the fishery industry, residents find employment in other industries.
    • Festivities and folk music is a big part of Twillingate.
    Plurals need the word are and not the word is.
    Fixed both. NeonFire (talk) 11:29, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
    • The festival features local talent, dances, entertainment from throughout Newfoundland on Thursday and Friday nights, a parade, performances from the Split Peas and a fireworks display at the end.
    Another long sentence. What occurs on Thursday and Fridays, what at the end? Do not need the word throughout. Perhaps this is better... But do the Split Peas perform every year at the festival? The festival features local talent, dances, entertainment from Newfoundland on Thursday and Friday nights. A parade, performances from the Split Peas and a fireworks display at the end.
    Fixed.
    • A screech-in is performed annually at the Fish, Fun and Folk Festival and done privately elsewhere, where tourists from outside Newfoundland and Labrador and classified "Honorary Newfoundlanders" after completing a ritual that involves kissing a fish, drinking a shot of Screech and repeating lines said by the host.
    A long long sentence.
    Fixed.
    • Twillingate was probably used as a seasonal fishing port during the 15th and 16th centuries, but there were no recorded European settlers until the 17th century.
    Encyclopaedias should be a compilation of facts not probably's. Re word, or cite or remove. Being a coastal community there should be something to this statement.|*The lead should be expanded.
    Yeah, I've always kinda wondered about that sentence in the article. It was there long before I began editing but I just left it there. It's removed now anyway. [I'm not sure how it appears to you but this is coming up next to the lead suggestion for some reason for me; it's meant to be a response to the Twillingate was probably used... suggestion.
    • By the winter of 1739, there were 152 people - the "livyers" or permanent settlers - living in Twillingate.
    This statement could use a citation of some sort.
    I removed it. NeonFire (talk) 11:29, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

    Broad in coverage - Major Aspects

    • According to Canada WP communties, many of the topics have been covered in this article. Check this new WP for guidelines in creating city articles. If there were a Government and politics section, there would be a place for writing prose about many of the prominent people, eliminating the Notable people section altogether. The notable folk related to Arts and culture could be placed as prose in that section, and so on such as in these FA CA community articles. This would also eliminate much of the See also links which also are better in the prose of the article leaving only the lists of communities.
    Check out the Government section at Dawson Creek, British Columbia or Chetwynd, British Columbia as these are FA articles which are comparable in size to Twillingate compared to the larger city articles.
    ie. From this version ...there were listed these politicians and federal electoral districts. These listed items, when worded into a descriptive sentence about each of them could connect together to make into a wonderful section on government.
    ie. These listed folks when added in prose / proper sentences to the history section, would enhance that section tremendously.
    • William Cormack, set up the Boeothick Institution (now the Beothuk Institute) in 1827, while at Twillingate.
    • John Day, a local policeman who, in 1825, was the first non-native settler at what is now Carmanville.
    • Demasduwit, one of the last Beothuk people, was held at Twillingate.
    ie. These listed folks when added in prose / proper sentences to the art and culture section, would enhance that section tremendously (where they would fit in and make sense to the flow).
    • Travis Randell, a forward with the Halifax Mooseheads hockey team.
    • Georgina Stirling, an opera singer, known by her stage name Marie Toulinquet.
    • Peter Troake, Captain of the MV Christmas Seal and recipient of the Order of Canada, born in Durrell.
      • I just removed them altogether. Is that fine for now? NeonFire (talk) 19:30, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
    For these new paragraphs on Government and the additional paragraph into history about the people, references are needed. Sometimes the wiki articles on the biographies have references that can also be used in this article if they refer to the person and Twillingate.

    Broad in coverage - Focused

    • The listing of island communities that follows the statementTwillingate island is made up of several different communities. should be in an article named Twillingate island not in an article about Twillingate the town. Move list to another wiki article, please. If there is some economic trading between Twillingate and the communities, or interchange of sporting events, then they are part of the prose in this regards, otherwise it is info about the island proper an not the town proper.

    Images

    • Image:Twillingate.jpg, Image:Newfoundland Twillinggate2.jpg, Image:Newfoundland Twillinggate1.jpg add the copyright holder name in the image caption use under the conditions that you appropriately attribute it.
    The images that are in public domain don't need attribution to the author. Only one uploader requested attribution. The author won't deter, but not needed for the last two images, only for Aconcagua's images.
    • Religious Affiliation Twillingate 2006
      Religious Affiliation Twillingate 2006
      and
      Marital Status Twillingate 2006
      Marital Status Twillingate 2006
      are made now.

    comment

    • The improvements are coming along. Used the strike out to eliminate the ones completed...only a few left. Kind Regards SriMesh | talk 17:02, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
      • Sorry, I didn't see the comments above before. I added to the lead, added captions to the images attributing the authors of those images and added some of the notable people back into the bottom of the history section as well as the new Government and politics section. Being a town of only 2400 people, there isn't much to say about government.
    Me again. Asked for request for citations/references for the two new paragraphs one in the history section, and the other the new government section. SriMesh | talk 20:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
    I think the author name could be removed from Aconcagua's images. My understanding is that if the author asks for attribution and the author's name is in the image description page that will suffice and none of his images here require that. The pictures from Aconcagua only ask that you notify him if they are used and I did that commons:User talk:Aconcagua#Images being used CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 21:02, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

    I've added citations to both the Government and politics section and the new information in the history section. NeonFire (talk) 22:29, 4 May 2008 (UTC) I've also added the two pictures (graphs). NeonFire (talk) 22:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Successful good article nomination

    I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of May 5, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:

    1. Well written?: Pass
    2. Factually accurate?: Pass
    3. Broad in coverage?: Pass
    4. Neutral point of view?: Pass
    5. Article stability? Pass
    6. Images?: Pass

    If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to Good article reassessment. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations.

    version of artricle passedSriMesh | talk 03:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Article still needs improvement

    I think it was probably a bit premature to pass this article for GA, as I still think there are some significant issues with it. Some of them are copyediting related, and I've fixed a few. But I would strongly recommend a good, thorough copyedit by someone familiar with the manual of style. There's some missing commas, sentences that run-on, missing articles (e.g. 'the'), etc.

    Sections on 'economy' and 'government and politics' are very short, which indicate issues with the broadness/completeness criterion of the GA criteria.

    The 'geography' section should begin with a link to the coordinates (stating something like 'Twillingate et al is located at blah blah blah', and link to the coords). I think there's a template for this. In addition to covering the roads and manmade geography, there should be information on the overall landscape and geographical features. The geography section fails to give me a picture of where exactly this town is. There also needs to be some information on the overall climate as well.

    The 'history' section is very short, and really doesn't tell the story too well. It starts out good, but falls short and loses me somewhere around the newspaper. Seriously, the most prominent event is the establishment of the newspaper? I would think you could move the newspaper bit to a 'services' section, and add more historical info from the late 1800s through modern day.

    Reference citations should have more information than just a link. Please include full citation information (author, title, publisher, date of publication, date URL was retrieved). This is important, especially for external links; if the link ever disappears, there needs to be some way for the information to be verified.

    Please address these issues. If they are not fixed in one week, the article will be delisted from WP:GA. Dr. Cash (talk) 22:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

    I have a question about the coordinates. They are already in the header and the infobox, is it then necessary to have them in the body of the article as well? I had a look at Cullacabardee, Western Australia, Askam and Ireleth and Atlanta, Georgia and none of them have the coordinates in the geography section, nor in the body of the article at all. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 22:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
    Ok, that's fine. But the other issues with the geography section remain. The section should not just be about roads and access to it. It needs to include a description of the overall geographical landscale and features. Is the terrain mountainous? Is it coastal? Is there a river through the city? Is there a lot of swampland? Desert? Forested? Climate also needs to be addressed. Basically, in short, the whole section needs to be rewritten. Sorry to be so blunt. Dr. Cash (talk) 23:47, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
    I have no problem with your other comments. In fact I was a bit surprised that it passed so easily. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 23:57, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
    I beg to differ, but I'll attempt to improve the geography/politics sections, however you need to remember that this isn't New York. It's a town of 2000 people. There isn't much to say about government and leadership in the town and apparently the town council feels no need to release any information in the first place, especially on the internet. Their lackluster official town website provides practically nothing besides tourist information. Oh, and for a rural town, the beginning of the newspaper was actually important. Sure, it may not have been the most prominent the history but the town's history isn't that prominent or detailed to begin with. Maybe before judging an article, you should learn more about the town itself because the things that you think are rather trivial may mean something to the people of Twillingate. NeonFire (talk) 01:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
    City size shouldn't matter. If you want a good example of an article on a small town, take a look at Flagstaff, Arizona. Dr. Cash (talk) 01:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
    Yeah, I love how you ignored the comments on the culture/newspaper there. Also, great job at picking a similar-sized town article for comparison. A city of 58,213 people versus a rural town of 2,400 people. Twillingate doesn't have any real forms of public transit. There's virtually no crime. Other than a few insignificant walking trails, there's not much to talk about in terms of parks and outdoor recreation. Twillingate doesn't have any strong relations to the media or pop culture. No local radio station, no local television station. There are only two schools and they are planned to be merged in a few years anyway. There's one rural two-lane highway into the town and one hospital. If you'd provide more specific examples on what should be improved in the article, that'd be great. I don't know what to write about the climate. There's snow. Lots of snow. There's wind. Lots of wind. It's comparable to any other Newfoundland town. It never gets horribly hot (or... even hot at all) any time in the year. By the way you've stated your criticism throughout your review, it appears as if you thrive to trash the article. I didn't expect a successful good article nomination one day and a delisting the next. The way you said "If these problems aren't fixed within one week, the article will be delisted" made me feel like I'm on trial or something. Just because the government and politics section can't be adequately covered due to the size of the town as well as a few other minor problems, you feel as if you have the authority to automatically demote an article because you think it's not good enough?
    I've never been one for Wikipedia's "Your article isn't good enough for us policy" and all this really feels like work that's gone unappreciated and work that's completely pointless. I'm sorry if I wasted my time trying to improve Newfoundland and Labrador-related articles here. I guess my work isn't up to the superior standards of the encyclopedia. That's fine.
    I just wish people would take a more civil approach to sharing their opinions on a article, rather than trashing it. NeonFire (talk) 02:04, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

    I am not trying to be mean here. I am upholding the Good Article criteria, which all GAs must adhere to. If they don't adhere to those criteria, they either don't pass or are delisted. In this case, I still see issues with completeness -- lots of sections are too short, and the history section places too much emphasis on a supposedly important arrival of a newspaper which isn't even published today (according to the article). Furthermore, some of the new information that you did add, like that added to the geography section, is uncited.

    As far as a good example, perhaps Flagstaff may not be the best. I would recommend taking a look at Navenby, a small British town of less than 2,000 people, that recently went through both a successful GA nomination, followed by a successful FA nomination. Looking at both the current version of the article, as well as the version that passed GA, you'll see significant differences between it, and this article, and it should be more clear of where the shortcomings are in this article, to give a better idea of how to improve it.

    So unfortunately, at this time, I don't have a better option than to delist this article from WP:GA. It can be renominated at WP:GAN once it meets the criteria. Good luck! Dr. Cash (talk) 20:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)