Talk:Twelve Olympians

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I was told that Demeter is not allowed to visit her daughter otherwise she would be happy and winter wouldnt be barren. Also Hades has earned a place as an Olympian, however with the way some of the Gods are missing at times or dont bother to show for meetings there is never more then twelve at a time (unless there is an emergency) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rikudemyx (talk • contribs) 05:59, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I've never read before that Demeter visits Persephone in Hades—I've only read that when Persephone has to spend time down there, Demeter mourns yet again and winter returns. The article on Demeter doesn't say any differen't—either it needs to be updated, or the story is reported erroneously here. Postdlf 08:00, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have read somewhere that Demeter visited Persephone in Hades, but I can't remember where, and it was only in one story, in a book that contradicted a lot of things that I have read about Greek mythology. So I agree that it is probabaly presented wrongly in this article. marie16

Contents

[edit] Athena succeeded Zeus

I never read this before (outside some bad TV show), source?

Me either... and I beleive it is factually untrue. I am removing it until it can be backed up Sotakeit 17:03, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The birth of Aphrodite?

Quoting the article: "The Olympians gained their supremacy in the world of gods after Zeus led his siblings to victory in war with the Titans; Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Hestia, and Hades were siblings; all other Olympians are usually considered the children of Zeus by various mothers, except for Athena, who in some versions of the myth was born of Zeus alone. Additionally, some versions of the myth state that Hephaestus was born of Hera alone as Hera's revenge for Zeus' solo birth of Athena."

I think Aphrodite wasn't a child of Zeus either? She was born from the sea when Cronus cut off Uranus' genitals and threw them into the sea. --Lareine 14:30, 8 March 2006 (UTC)0

From Plato's Symposium (180 d-e): ... there are two goddesses of that name, ... One is an older deity, the motherless daughter of Uranus, the god of heaven: she is known as Urania, or Heavenly Aphrodite. The other goddess is younger, the daughter of Zeus and Dione: her name is Pandemos, or Common Aphrodite. --VonWoland 17:20, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

In Greek myth we have two different sources for Aphrodite's birth: the Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite(which calls her a child of Zeus), and the Theogony of Hesiod, where she is one of the first 'primeval' goddesses to be born, along with Chaos and Gaia.Dixontm (talk) 11:27, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

If one were to try to attach a specific source for each statement in this article one would soon perceive what is too pat or downright misleading in this account. Some reading might be required. --Wetman 11:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Heracles?

I've heard nothing of Hercules being an Olympian, only him becoming god of strength upon death, but never an Olympian. Therequiembellishere 23:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hades

Isn't Hades one of the Olympians also? no

I don't know I know some weirdo in Indiana named their kid Hades though —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.134.171.60 (talk) 02:29, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

The first note still implies that Hades was one of the twelve. I suggest that any such suggestion be deleted until a source can be found that implies Hades was ever considered part of the twelve by any artist or poet. I can understand the Hestia/Dionysus confusion, but I have not come across any source, academic or classic, that ever counted him as one of the twelve. This does not mean he was not important, he obviously was, but the Greeks were weary about mentioning this god's name, they rarely depicted him in art, and only one temple has ever been found dedicated to him (and that one was only used once a year and only by his priests). The fact that he is chthonic does not, as some have suggested, disqualify him, since other deities (especially Demeter) were described as both Olympian and chthonic. I have no personal problem with including him IF I could see even one source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.201.171 (talk) 12:02, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion over "Twelve Olympians"

This article is very confused as to what constitutes one of the Twelve Olympians. Olympian-dwelling god and the Twelve who sit on the heavenly council (in the manner of a tradtional Greek council of elders, cf. Homer) should be distinguished from one another. Olympian-dwellers include all the plethora of attendant gods from Hebe, to Themis, Dione, Leto, the Muses, the Graces, Eros, etc, etc. (as in Homer and Hesiod). "The supreme Twelve" were rather standardized in classical times, mostly following the rank suggested by Homer, but with a few localised variations. --Theranos 21:12, 30 December 2006 (UTC) This author doesn't know what he/she is talking about! It says that there are only three non-olympian gods, when I can think of at least 5 right of the top of my head. Go to [1] for a complete list. Seriously, there are thousands of them!

Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Hades, Ares, Hermes, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Demeter, and Hestia are the traditional twelve Olympians.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but there are 13 gods listed as the "Twelve Olympians." Seeing as Demeter is listed in the following sentence and further down, during the hierarchy she is listed further down, so maybe her inclusion in this is a mistake? At the moment, I'm going to assume so, and if anyone feels justified in otherwise leaving her in that original list, feel free to revert it. -Demitel (talk) 13:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The 12 Olympians were: Zeus, Hera, Athena, Demeter, Aphrodite, Hestia, Hermes, Apollon, Poseidon, Ares, Hephaestus and Artemis. The fact that some other gods like Hades or Dionysus are important and popular doesn't make them members of the 12. We won't change the mythology according to our will. - Sthenel (talk) 23:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

What a bunch of idiots. Of course Dionysus is one of the twelve Olympians. Take a look at the Parthenon frieze of the 12 gods, or a hundred other pieces of Greek art. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.118.226.136 (talk) 08:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

No he is not! - Sthenel (talk) 08:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

This is all good and fine--edit the gods according to your expertise. I was just making the point that there were thirteen gods listed rather than twelve, and in an article titled "Twelve Olympians," I thought that it was a bit ridiculous. -Demitel (talk) 03:23, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm currently involved in a "Greek gods in Ancient Literature" course during my Classics degree, being taught by one of the top scholars on Greek gods; my lecturer suggestes that Dionysus WAS one of the 12, as is Demeter: but admits there are differences in different accounts of the 12. In the end, there was never any "set" 12 olympians, given the lack of religious texts such as a 'Bible' of Hellenotheism. Dixontm (talk) 11:34, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that his suggestion is a variation of the 12. Dionysus and Hades were significant gods but not part of the 12. Additionally, among the twelve, there were 6 men and 6 women. - Sthenel (talk) 21:29, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Like any scholarly dispute, we should show all sides neutrally rather than decide which is correct. If there are different opinions among scholars and sources about the exact makeup of the list we should give all of the significant variations, while indicating if one is most common. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

In this article, we are going to forget what we were taught. In the Greek wikipedia, it's clear who the 12 Olympians were. Here the User:Carlo ms06 changes the most common variation (the template shows it) without any source, according to his will. - Sthenel (talk) 09:22, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Burkert, Greek Religion p.125 "The Greeks came to assemble their most important gods in a soceiety of twelve. The number is fixed; some names vary, especially Hestia/Dionysos." The author provides a full bibliography of sources, and then describes the 12 Olympians of the Parthenon frieze (i.e. including Dionysos). The removal of this god from the list of 12 is simply incorrect. --Lysianna (talk) 10:38, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
"What we were taught" isn't a universal constant. What I was taught is that the Greek mythology was assembled from the mythologies of various groups and localities. I was taught that local centers of worship had different views of the importance and role of various deities. I was taught that later writers, including the Roman Ovid, molded and streamlined the modern perception of the classical gods, but that the original versions were not so neat or even consistent. It's quite possible that the citizens of Athens had a different list of the 12 Olympians than the citizens of Smyrna. It isn't our job to either enforce "what we were taught", nor any other single orthodoxy. Our job, as Wikipedia editors, is to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view. If those sources disagree then we summarize all their viewpoints. Pick up any work of scholarship on ancient Greek religious practices and you'll see there aren't pat answers - rather it's the messy work of anthropolgy and history. Some places worshipped Aphorodite as the goddess of fertility, while others worshipped Demeter or Hera. The sun god may be Apollo or Helios, depending on time and place. It's a mess. Rather than try to straighten it out we should just describe the mess. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Thats correct, however from the body of Greek literature you can draw some generalisations. Homeric epic is dominated by 12 gods. The same re-occur in Greek cult. A survey of Pausanias makes it readily apparent which were the 12 predominate cult gods. Greek art also reveals the same combination of figures again and again. There were regional variations of course, but these should not be given more weight than they deserve. The only mythology of 12 Olympians is the story of Gigantomachy and division of the divine honours by Zeus at the council of Mecone in which the combatants were awarded the title of "Olympian." --Lysianna (talk) 11:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, make your favourite list in here then, ignoring the most common one which is what we, as Greeks, were taught. And believe me this is quite important for us. Have a good work on this article! Thank you! - Sthenel (talk) 17:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ares is the cowardly god of war

Exactly what this word "cowardly" talks about? - Sthenel 09:36, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On Hades(pluto) issue

Just one word on that. Hades although a Cronides was never counted part of the 12 Olympians. He was the ruler and most important God of the Underworld, a Chtonios God and not Olympian as he according to the legend he was living within the earth and didn t have a palace on Olympus. So it is a mistake to be referred as part of the Olympian Pantheon —Preceding unsigned comment added by Italiotis (talk • contribs) 10:09, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Olympian Alternates

Technically there are fourteen (in all) Olympians, and it is debated between many which 12 are the twelve olympians. Hades, Dionysus, Demeter, and Hestia are the ones that seem to be the ones that are argued over. I agree with the comment above, for Hades really doesn't live on Mount Olympus, but what about the others?

Also, don't you think it would be nice if the article included the roman names too, but still mention that the Greek names were the ones made up first?

user:Divya da Animal Lvr  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.193.163.234 (talk) 21:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I would say that this would be confusing, given that different gods were paid different levels of homage by the Greeks and Romans respectively; for example, Ares was called "the most hateful of all the gods" in Iliad XI, and there are barely any mention of temples to him in Greek literature, whereas his roman 'counterpart' Mars had huge honour in Rome, eg. the temple of Mars Ultor built by Augustus/Octavian. Dixontm (talk) 11:30, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sean Cheren

Um, I've read a lot of the Greek myths, and I don't recall Sean Cheren being a name of Zeus. Also, Amanda, Daywalker is never mentioned in any of the myths either? And if Cheren is different from Zeus, where's Zeus on the list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.245.46.221 (talk) 02:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism in names

Ok, please someone revert this to a proper version meta (talk) 20:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

The vandal came back. Somebody get the banstick? --75.146.61.185 (talk) 23:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Will the real Olympians please stand up?

According to the editor Carlo ms06, Demeter does not belong on the list as one of the Twelve Olympians, but Hades does. This is somewhat credited by the Scifi.com external link. [2] That list includes Hades, and not Demeter. In fact, Demeter is listed specifically as a lesser god.

However, according to the editor Sthenel, Demeter absolutely belongs as one of the Twelve, and not Hades. And this is credited by the other external link, at theoi.com [3], where Demeter is specifically listed as an Olympian god, and as one of the Twelve. But as for Hades, the site comments:

The thirteenth of the great gods was Haides(sic), King of the Dead. Unlike the other 12, he was never titled Olympian, nor did he partake in the feasts of Heaven. Instead this lord remained ever enthroned within the gloom of the underworld.

And a subpage on that site adds about Demeter:

DEMETER was the great Olympian goddess of agriculture, grain, and bread, the daily sustenance of mankind.

Some discussion of this has already taken place, but the real problem seems to be the lack of any credible third party sources. If any other editors have any light to shed on this it would be quite helpful, as not only do the editors disagree, but so do the the linked web sources. Brando130 (talk) 02:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Indeed some sources place Hades amongst the 12 but he was never part of them. He didn't even reside on Olympus. Demeter was one of the most important goddesses of the ancient greek religion. - Sthenel (talk) 12:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

There are some contradictions in the current text. Although Hades is initially included as a possible member of the 12 Olympians, it is then mentioned that "And, although Hades was always one of the 12 Olympians ..." So, he "was always" or "usually" one of the 12 gods?! I think that what should be mentioned is that there was a "nucleus" of major gods, and some others sometimes included within this major cycle and sometimes not, such as Demeter, Hades, Dionysus and Hestia. This is how I believe this issue should be treated. We must also have in mind that the categorization of gods in a group of "12 major gods" is mostly a creation of non-ancient sources. So, we should not insist on the creation of unchangeable lists but on the presentation of all possible versions. The current version includes both Hades and Demeter as possible members of the "12", which seems logical, but the major problem is that no editor brings in the article his sources. There are no citations, and not even the numbeer "17" of the intro is supported by any source.

I also believe that not only Sthenel but also Carlo ms06 should participate in this discussion and discuss his/her sources. Especially, User:Carlo ms06 should explain why he insists on the removal of Demeter, and not on its inclusion along with Hades as possible members of the "12". And User:Sthenel should bring here all his sources that support his inclusion of Demeter. Until a solution is found here, I think the better thing to do is to temporarily protect the article, in order to ease the ongoing edit war.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Some of the edits I made early regarding the twelve Olympians in ancient Greek art have been lost in the edit war between Sthenel & Carlo. I included some references in the discussion above as well. Burkert's volume Greek Religion is a reliable source. The Twelve Olympians are according to him Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Athena, Hephaestus, Ares, Aphrodite, Apollo, Artemis, Hermes, Dionysus. These are the Twelve gods of the Parthenon frieze as well. "Olympian," in Greek Olympios was a title given to the gods who lived on Olympus. Hades was not included in their number, and in Homer never partakes of the feasts and councils of Olympus. Hades also never occurs in ancient Greek representations or cult of the Twelve Gods. --Lysianna (talk) 13:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, just my two cents. According to these sites: [4], [5] Demeter and not Hades is an Olympian God. These sites, state Hades and not Demeter is an Olympian God: [6], [7] If anything the article should just state that there are two lists of Olympians, Demeter on the one list and Hades on the other. No harm in both. This website lists them both [8]. El Greco(talk) 19:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
It's interesting that one site suggests that Hades was not an Olympian, but remained in the underworld. I thought that Demeter was also a chtonic deity, however I didn't see anything about that on Demeter's article. I had remembered reading about Demeter's similar association with the underworld, however, and was easily able to access the quote, which mentions that an archaeological artifact found in Isthmia (near Corinth), the 'Juventianus inscription,'
"not only provides evidence of Demeter devotion at Roman Istmia and locates the center of cultic activity; it also indicates the orientation of that activity. The gods of the underworld were prominent at Isthmia, and Demeter was associated with them. Persephone or Kore, the queen of the dead, had her own temple in the sacred glen. Moreover, the inscription mentions a religious site dedicated to Hades, a Plutoneion, there. Worship of Hades was virtually nonexistent in ancient Greece, for sacred sites dedicated to him are very rare. That there was a Plutoneion at Isthmia underscores the chtonic disposition of that place. Furthermore, the grouping of Demeter with Persephone and Hades suggests that Demeter devotion in the Roman period had a predominantly chtonic orientation." -- DeMaris, Richard E. "Corinthian Religion and Baptism for the Dead (1 Corinthians 15:29): Insights from Archaeology and Anthropology" Journal of Biblical Literature 114/4 (1995): 667-668
The article further references
  • Garland, Way of Death, 53, 153;
  • A.D. Nock, "The Cult of Heroes," in Essays on Religion and the Ancient World (ed. Z. Stewart; 2 vols.; Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1972) 2.592.
Brando130 (talk) 22:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

At the beginning the article mentioned the 12 gods to be Zeus, Hera, Athena, Apollo, Hephaestus, Hestia, Hermes, Demeter, Ares, Poseidon and Aphrodite. Carlo started to add Hades and remove other gods. I changed the sentence and put Dionysus and Hades as being part of the twelve according to some sources to avoid the edit war, but Carlo kept on editing according to his personal view. The first twelve are the most traditional version according to greek schoolbooks, and this version is accepted in the article of the greek wikipedia, the template in this article include the same gods. Of course some sources include Hades or Dionysus or Heracles in the twelve. - Sthenel (talk) 23:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Some further remarks:

  • If I may add something from my sources. A renowned Greek encyclopedia, Helios (ed. 1953) (Volume: Greece, pages: 1147-1160), presents as major gods the following: Zeus, Hera, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Ares, Hermes, Demeter, Dionysus, Poseidon and Hestia. It gives 13 major gods, and does not include Hades.
  • I recall from my editing of Greek mythology (during its successful FARC) what I had written stating H.W. Stoll, Religion and Mythology of the Greeks, 8: "The limitation of their number [of the Olympians] to twelve seems to have been a comparatively modern idea."
  • From a search in "Google Book" I get conflicted information. For instance, Encyclopedia Americana says that Hades was not one of the "12" and that Dionysus often displaces Hera. In Gardner's Art Through the Ages, p. 107, I see a list identical to the one Sthenel gives, but it is also mentioned that "Hades was of equal status". In Lesley Adkins-Roy A. Adkins, Handbook to Life in Ancient Greece, 183, I read: "According to Hesiod there were 12 Olympians: Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Aphrodite, Hermes, Demeter, Dionysus, Hephaestus and Ares." So, here Dionysus and Demeter are included but not Hades and Hestia!

In my version of Britannica (2001-CD ROM), I did not find something helpful; maybe somebody else can research there better! I still have to check the most renowned modern Greek encyclopedia Papyrus-Larousse-Britannica, but I think that the most comprehensive approach is the one I read in Religious Facts:

"There were fourteen different gods recognized at some point as Olympians, though never more than twelve at one time. Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Ares, Hermes, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Athena, Apollo, and Artemis were always considered Olympians. Hestia, Demeter, Dionysus, and Hades are variable gods among the Twelve."

I think that this is quite accurate: there was a clear group of 10 major gods, and some others included or not according to different sources, and this is the spirit I think this article should reflect. Now, if there is a consensus towards this direction, we can find out the exact wording (maybe something similar to "Religious Facts" or any other helpful proposal), include the necessary sources and references, and close this issue.--Yannismarou (talk) 14:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

In ancient Greek religion many city states had an altar dedicated to the twelve gods. The altar of the twelve at Athens depicts Zeus, Hera, Demeter, Hestia, Poseidon, Hephaestus, Athena, Ares, Aphrodite, Apollo, Artemis, Hermes.
But on the Parthenon frieze depicting the 12, Hestia is replaced by Dionysus.
The altar of the 12 at Cos has Dionysus and Heracles in place of Ares and Hephaestus.
On Athenian vase paintings depicting the gods feasting on Olympus the missing Olympian is usually Hestia. Dionysus is seated with Ariadne amongst the Twelve.
The only ancient source which mentions Hades as one of the Twelve I believe is Plato. However, that is part of a philosophical discussion and appears contrary to anything else in Greek religion, literature or art. --Lysianna (talk) 14:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
The problem with the religionfacts.com site is that again, like the problem with many web sources, it is written anonymously with no further assessable resources on either the author of the website or on the references used to compose the list of 12. Certainly the surviving friezes provide important evidence. Relevant to the debate over Demeter or Hades as an Olympian, if I am reading Lysianna correctly, Demeter appears as an Olympian in two friezes at Athens, one at Cos, and in a vase painting. Hades does not appear in any of these, (that is correct?) and add to that the published citation I gave that states Hades worship was virtually non-existent in Greece, and the focus, in my opinion, becomes on finding a reliable, preferably printed source that indicates why Hades would have been included in any ancient mind's idea of the 'Twelve Olympians'
At any rate, if the friezes all include Demeter, there is no reasonable way to remove her entirely from this article. Brando130 (talk) 19:57, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that is correct. Demeter occurs in all the friezes. Numerous Athenian vase paintings represent her at the Olympian feast of the gods and even in the Gigantomachia (War of the Olympian gods against the Giants). Hades is absent from the Giant War both in literature and classical art.
On the literary side there are a few references to the Twelve in myth. In the Homeric Hymn to Hermes the infant god divides a sacrifice into twelve portions, the twelfth of which he reserves for himself as an Olympian to be. The HH to Demeter describes the self-imposed exile of Demeter from Olympus, who later returns to the home of the gods at the urging of Rhea.
On a religious level, Hades was always honoured seperately from the Olympian or Heavenly gods. The Olympian sacrifice was made on an altar fire, but sacrifices to Hades and the dead were fireless pit sacrifices. His cult was predominately funereal. The Greek funeral rites belonged to him as did propitiations to the ghosts of the dead. Death was a pollution, and those who had not been purified after handling the dead were prohibited from sacrificing to the Olympian gods or entering their precincts. Hades, in this sense, was explicitly non-Olympian. When Hades was associated with Zeus and Poseidon, i.e. in contrast to the Titans, the three were titled the Cronides or "sons of Cronus."
The article should be based on classical sources and the works of professional classicists such as the standard academic volume on Greek religion by Walter Burkert. --Lysianna (talk) 08:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I have no concern of removing Demeter out of this article, she is a goddess indeed according to Mythology. She is in fact a lesser god. It clearly states in Myhtology (if any of you have that book) that she is a goddess, but is not part of the 12. The 12 Olympians have power that cannot be created by humans or something that humans cannot gain by themselves. This is where Demeter is very different from Hades. Hades is the god of the Underworld, while Demeter is the goddess of the corn. Humans need food more than death plus, she is closer to the humans than any of the 12. At any rate, the humans need her more than they need the 12. Have you ever heard of a person liking death more than their daily needs such as food or wine? I don't think so, that would be absurd. Hades has a higher role than Demeter which makes him a perfect fit for the 12, which also have their higher role than Demeter. Demeter has a closer relationship with humans than any of the other 12, this makes her a lesser god because her role in earth is more important than being an Olympian up in Olympus. Bottom Line: She has a closer relationship with the humans, that is why she is considered as a lesser god; She is needed more in earth than in Olympus. Carlo_ms06 (talk) 10:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Carlo, you insist on mentioning one source of yours (a "Mythology" book for which you provide no further data [ISBN? Author?]),and you make an interesting analysis. But, if you read my thread above, you will see that there are many other classicists, who place Demeter among the 12 Olympians. What about them?! And why is your "Mythology" a better book that my Helios' "Mythology", which places Hades among the lesser gods? And the argument that she had closer relationships with the human beings and did not reside in Olympus is not convincing. Neither Hades was residing in Olympus and he had closer relationship's with the dead people! And what if she was the goddess of corn (which is inaccurate, since she was more than that: She was the goddess fertility)?! Artemis was the goddess of hunting (among other things), and she is still one of the 12 Olympians!!!
As Brando, I also do not understand why you insist on the total removal of Demeter (although a series of sources categorize it as one of the 12! As a matter of fact, more than Hades!!), and do not accept the solution of the inclusion of both Hades and Demeter in a form of prose we'll agree. I also agree with Brando about the mythology sites, who name no scholar and are anonymous. We need to base our editing of the article on strong academic sources. Therefore, please both you and Sthenel use specific academic sources to support your arguments. And, of course, any further help by other editors is welcomed. On this issue, it is an interesting question, Lysianna, what "the standard academic volume on Greek religion by Walter Burkert" says about this issue.--Yannismarou (talk) 14:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I really do not know the full extent about the subject, but I think that the Greeks or anyone who practiced this religon obviously didn't have one place where they wrote down all their main gods, and there were many different variations of the religon. This said, I think that it will be extremely hard, if not impossible to come up with a consesus. So, why don't we just say something along the lines of, 'it is disputed whether or not Hades or Demeter is a major god.' I don't know if a got the names right, but if you state the sources and you're able to appropriatly incorperate the info in the article, it could be a much better solution than arguing over it for another couple of days. ~ Bella Swan 23:00, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Uninvolved

My source is: Olympians; The Oxford Companion to World mythology. David Leeming. Oxford University Press, 2004. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. Solihull Libraries. 5 January 2008 <http://www.oxfordreference.com/views/ENTRY.html?subview=Main&entry=t208.e1186>

Although usually referred to as twelve in number, there were really fourteen Olympians, unless we discount the relatively late addition of Dionysos, the demotion of Hestia, and the designation of Hades as one of the chthomioi, the deities of the depths of the earth.

Aatomic1 (talk) 20:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the above source is the best way to handle it - note that 12 is a common number though the actual set of 12 varies, and then delineate the variances and explain why. I've got to say - hard to exclude Demeter on any basis. My understanding is that she's actually a Greek re-interpretation of the more ancient amorphous "Goddess" - you know all the Woman of Willendorf statues. She is the explanation for the seasons, a representative of the Mother in the maiden-mother-crone archetype, a child of Chronus and Rhea, and generally all-round Olympian. Phyesalis (talk) 16:24, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Going one step forward

  • I agree with Bella Swan, and that is why I proposed to underscore in the main text of the article that there were about 10 undisputed gods and some others sometimes included and sometimes not in the "12", stating the sources we've already gathered here. Anyway, I'll go on within the next days proposing a text, after checking some additional sources I have in mind, and then we'll see if my proposal will be accepted. Any other proposals are welcomed of course, but I do think it is high time we went one step forward by proposing text versions for the issue in dispute.--Yannismarou (talk) 11:19, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that the version which was established before the beginning of this edit war was the most traditional according to most of the sources. - Sthenel (talk) 06:41, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] One Solution

Why don't you guys just put whatever you think is right in that article and just leave like that. Make the major eidts that you want or whatsoever, then just leave it protected with whoever is protecting this page. If you like Demeter so much, then put her back in that and stop making this a big whole thing. If excluding Hades for the 12 makes everyone so happy, then just take him off the page and continue with all the edits that you want to do. You guys didn't really have to put so much thought about this, geez. (Carlo_ms06 ct 08:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

...just put whatever you think is right in that article and just leave like that. Thats what we've been trying to do. The page can't stay permanently protected, thats not a good option for any Wiki article. I'll take your lack of interest to indicate we're never gonna see the citation we've been asking you to provide if you insist on continuing the edit war. That being said, Yannismarou, I'm content with whatever prose you decide, however I'm still yet to see any printed, reliable references naming Hades as an Olympian. Brando130 (talk) 16:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References

1. The canonical Twelve (which Greek students are instructed in) are Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Hestia, Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Aphrodite, Athena, Hephaestus, Hermes. This is based on the altar of the Twelve Gods in the Agora of Athens (extant).

2. The frieze on the front of the Parthenon depicts the Twelve Gods but Hestia is replaced by Dionysus who was a more important god in the Athenian festival calendar.

3. Plato's 12 from http://www.winterscapes.com/sannion/twelve.htm : "Plato in the Laws 828 connected the Twelve Gods with the twelve months, and proposed that the final month be devoted to rites in honor of Plouton and the spirits of the dead, implying that he considered Haides to be one of the Twelve. In the Phaedrus 246 e-f he aligns the Twelve with the Zodiac and would exclude Hestia from their rank."

N.B. The Athenians had a thirteenth leap-month, which may have been re-assigned by Plato to Plouton-Hades. In the actual Athenian calendar both the 12th and 13 months were dedicated to Poseidon. However, Plato is speaking of an idealised city with a perfected calendar.

4. Greece beyond Athens. There were numerous regional variations. The Olympian Twelve at the shrine of Olympia itself was quite unusual. http://www.winterscapes.com/sannion/twelve.htm "At Kos Ares and Hephaitos are left behind, replaced by Herakles and Dionysos. (Gratia Berger-Doer, "Dodekatheoi," in Lexicon Iconographicum Mythologiae Classicae (LIMC), vol. 3 (1986), 646-58.) Herodotos (2:43-44) agrees with this and counts Herakles as one of the Twelve, while Lucian adds Asklepios to Herakles as a member of the Twelve, without explaining which two had to give way for them. Pindar (Olympian Odes 10.49) and Apollodoros (1.251), however, disagree with this. For them Herakles is not one of the Twelve Gods, but the one who established the cult of the Twelve by setting up a series of six altars honoring pairs of deities and performing sacrifices to them by the banks of the Alpheios river at Olympia. Thankfully we do not have to guess who comprised the Dodekatheon in this form, for information has come to light at Olympia itself. According to Wilamowitz (Der Glaube 1.329) the Twelve Gods included Zeus Olympios, Poseidon, Hera, Athene, Hermes, Apollon, the Kharities, Dionysos, Artemis, the Alpheios River, and the Titans Kronos and Rheia."

5. Athenian vase paintings. Various combinations of the Olympian gods occur. Dionysus rather than Hestia occurs in the Gigantomachia. In scenes of feasting gods either Hestia or Dionysus is shown. Hestia is usually paired with Demeter in the seating order. [See The Beazley Archive for examples www.beazley.ox.ac.uk.] --Lysianna (talk) 20:15, 9 January 2008 (UTC)


The Twelve Olympians article should also be synchronised with the wikipedia article Chthonic, which discusses the difference between Olympian and Chthonic god cults. --Lysianna (talk) 10:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal

Thanks everybody for their helpful edits and providing of sources. I just add that in the most prominent modern Greek encyclopedia "Papyros-Larousse-Britannica" the 12 are the one indicated by Lysianna and mentioned in the article. I think that most sources agree that Demeter was one of the Canonical 12. Its presence there cannot easily be disputed. But Hades should also be mentioned. Thus, I propose a new text for the first two paragraphs, which are now edited as follows:

"The Twelve Olympians, also known as the Dodekatheon (Greek: Δωδεκάθεον < δωδεκα, dodeka, "twelve" + θεον, theon, "of the gods"), in Greek religion, were the principal gods of the Greek pantheon, residing atop Mount Olympus. There were, at various times, seventeen[citation needed] different gods recognized as Olympians, though never more than twelve at one time.

Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Ares, Hermes, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Hestia, Hades and Dionysus are usually included in the traditional twelve Olympians. Hebe, Helios and Persephone are other important gods, goddesses, which may also be included in a group of twelve. Persephone spent three months of the year in the underworld (causing the barren landscape of winter), and was allowed to return to Mount Olympus for the other nine months in order to be with her mother, Demeter, during this time, would be in woe and not with the Olympians. And, although Hades was always one of the 12 Olympians, his home in the underworld of the dead made his connection to the Olympians more tenuous."

I propose to reedit them as follows:

"The Twelve Olympians, also known as the Dodekatheon (Greek: Δωδεκάθεον < δωδεκα, dodeka, "twelve" + θεον, theon, "of the gods"), in Greek religion, were the principal gods of the Greek pantheon, residing atop Mount Olympus. The classical scheme of the Twelve Olympians (the Canonical Twelve of art and poetry) comprises the following gods: Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Ares, Hermes, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Hestia. The respective Roman scheme comprises the following gods: Jupiter, Juno, Neptunus, Ceres, Mars, Mercurius, Vulcanus, Venus, Minerva, Apollo, Diana and Vesta.

There was, however, a great deal of fluidity when it came to who was counted among their number in antiquity; other important gods are sometimes included by certain sources in the group of Twelve replacing some of the above Canonical 12. The first ancient reference of religious ceremonies for the 12 Olympians is found in the Homeric Hymn to Hermes. Around 400 BC Herodorus included in his Dodekatheon the following deities: Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, Athena, Hermes, Apollo, Alpheus, Cronus, Rhea and the Charites. Wilamowitz agrees with Herodorus' version of the 12. There were also numerous regional variations in ancient Greece. For instance, at Kos Ares and Hephaestus are left behind, replaced by Heracles and Dionysus. Herodotus agrees with this and counts Heracles as one of the Twelve, while Lucian adds Asklepios to Herakles as a member of the Twelve, without explaining which two had to give way for them. Pindar and Apollodoros, however, disagree with this. For them, and Herodorus as well, Heracles is not one of the Twelve Gods, but the one who established their cult. Plato connected the Twelve Olympians with the twelve months, and proposed that the final month be devoted to rites in honor of Pluto and the spirits of the dead, implying that he considered Hades, one of the basic chthonic deities to be one of the Twelve. In Phaedrus Plato aligns the Twelve with the Zodiac and would exclude Hestia from their rank. Hebe, Helios and Persephone are other important gods, goddesses, which are sometimes included in a group of twelve. Persephone spent three months of the year in the underworld (causing the barren landscape of winter), and was allowed to return to Mount Olympus for the other nine months in order to be with her mother, Demeter, during this time, would be in woe and not with the Olympians."

There are many sources to add (Lysianna helped a lot with her last edit), and I'll add them in the main article, but I want first to agree on the text. Well, any proposals or comments?--Yannismarou (talk) 19:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Nice work! The only inclusion I'd argue for would be to add that Hades is phased out in later groupings due to his chthonic associations. The sentence "For instance, at Kos[,] Ares and Hephaestus are left behind..." could use an extra comma. And I'd rewrite the last sentence. Peresphone does not cause the barren landscape, Demeter does, as punishment for the separation. Also the wording conflicts so as to imply that Demeter isn't in Olympus during the 9 months P isn't in the underworld. How about "Persephone, daughter of Demeter, was forced to spend 3 months a year in the underworld. During this time, Demeter withheld her graces and caused the barren landscape of winter, until her daughter returned to Mount Olympus."? --Phyesalis (talk) 19:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with Yannismarou. - Sthenel (talk) 06:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

OK. Then I'll unprotect and edit the page taking into consideration Phyesalis' remarks. Let's hope new edit wars will be avoided.--Yannismarou (talk) 15:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Again the same problems

The User:68.92.250.7 seems willing to start an edit war by adding Dionysus in the Twelve. What about it? That's how the whole problem started previously. - Sthenel (talk) 22:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I've reverted one of his edits, since a consensus has been established. If the user wishes to, he/she can bring a new discussion here to the talk page. El Greco(talk) 00:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Beyond Myth

Shouldn't an article like this go beyond a simple exploration of myth? I can site a number of sources that specifically state the Greek religion did not use myth as a doctrinal base. Mythos provides a very limited and incomplete perception of this subject. And other question: I read up a little ways someone was using the Sci-Fi Channel as a source, how is that at all scholarly? --151.201.147.150 (talk) 19:12, 3 April 2008 (UTC)