Talk:Twee pop

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[edit] Term Source

Might I suggest "twee" means tree, as in the term "tree hugger"?

You may suggest but it would be wrong - "twee" is a corruption of "sweet" and has been around in British English far longer than the idea of tree hugging. - iridescent (talk to me!) 09:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Usage of phrase in UK

Is this phrase ever used in the UK ? I can't find any references to it. (and boy have i looked) indiepop, c86, even cutie have been used to describe this genre but tweepop if it is used then it must be very sporadic??? The article talks about simon reynolds MM articles but he doesn't use it or even refer to it. He refers to c86, cutie and indie pop(in the last chapter of) in his book; rip it up. (in 2004) When RTShops (in the UK) did a compilation broadly covering off the history of this genre they called it Indie Pop. When Sanctuary/Bob Stanley (in the UK) did a compilation covering off these bands in the mid 80s they called it CD86 (a play on C86). If you search for this type of music (UK bands) on eBay then they tend to be labelled c86. Same goes for Last FM tags which has er, tags (god forbid) neo-C86.

I've heard bands be called twee but "tweepop". in the UK ? I'm struggling. Can someone find some, any sources for the use of this phrase/term in the UK. Jem 17:06, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Even the main source for the article descirbes itself as "A massive, three-page article about indie pop: Why now?" - it talks about the fans of the genre using the phrase Twee! but it doesn't mention the words "tweepop". [1]Jem 17:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't know, but even then here in the US twee pop is commonly used to mean a particular type of indie pop, particularly in reference to Beat Happening and the K records aesthetic. 02:35, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
yep and in the UK its sarah records blah blah. its just in the UK its more commonly known as c86 and indie pop. essentially our articles for twee pop, indie pop, c86 need merging or at least clarifying. i agree "here's a genre of music...sixties, low fi, diy, asexual, cute, anoraks, jangle, "pop" and that" in the UK known as c86 or indiepop ..in early 90s came to be known in US as twee pop "k records, calvin johnson, olympia"....something like that. but they aren't 2 separate things.

Jem 09:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with the idea of merging these terms. Twee can be heard to be referenced in a variety of music from the U.K. E.G. The Fratellis "Everybody knows you cried last night" ("look so dumb and you sound so twee") and Tullycraft "Twee"

I strongly disagree with merging the terms; twee pop is a very distinct subgenre at the border between punk and indie. Googling "twee pop" brings up 250,000 hits (19,000 hosted at the .co.uk domain so hardly a purely American phenomenon) and the phrase "twee pop" returns 70+ matches on the BBC website alone, which I would say leans towards the phrase still being in common UK usage. And the phrase was certainly used by the bands themselves to describe the style - you can always click here to buy yourself an authentic (and again, UK not US issued) "Twee Fucker" badge, should you feel the urge... - Iridescent (talk to me!) 18:34, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I second the strongly disagree. I think this is a very valuable entry. It is definitely a distinct sub genre and there is enough information to justify its own entry Moonman1 13:15, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree with merging. Although Iridescent's reasoning may be correct (I haven't done enough research to be certain), the term "Twee" is too often used in a nebulous way and synonymously with Indie pop or C86. I think of it as a synonym for Indie Pop, and I think Jem is right that they may be used in slightly different ways regionally, they aren't two separate genres. Davemcarlson 01:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Its not that I'm denying that bands such as Talulah Gosh, The Softies, Tullycraft, The Pastels and so on and so on aren't called "twee" or "twee pop" but as dave says above its synonymous with indie pop or c86. there's hardly anything in the current article that isn't repeated in the indie pop article. - the genre is in thrall to the soft pop of the sixties - first evidence is yr orange juice/postcard - post punk poppy stuff from early 80s in uk - seminal moment is c86 (even though tape had a broader range of sounds) - big uk label in late 80s is sarah - velvet crush in the states then K records... - diy aesthetic, bowl hair cuts, anoraks, in thrall to child like aesthetic etc, asexual - a few revivals and so on and son on. the twee article says this and the indie pop article repeats it. notable sources (simon reynolds, bob stanley, UK music press all cited in the c86/indiepop articles) make no distinction. the indie pop article should refer to twee and perhaps anecdotes like twee fucker and even references to cuddlecore..in fact they do at some length ...so is there enough of a difference to warrant a lengthy article? Jem 12:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Initial talk

I still have my copy of C81, the C86 predessor cassette the NME gave away in 1981!! quercus robur

Suggestion: for the rest of the world who do not speak the British dialect of English, could someone add a definition of what "twee" means? I think it means "sweetly cute to the point of being disgusting", but since (1) I speak the other major dialect of English, & (2) I only know of the meaning of "twee" from people who are very hostile to the concept of "twee", someone who can provide a NPOV definition of twee should add it here. Thanks. -- llywrch 20:41 Mar 9, 2003 (UTC)

Four years late, but I've now done this. Iridescent 15:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

What are jangling lyrics? I've reworded the first sentence; hopefully this is what the author intended. Quincy 22:13, 30 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] No other twee

This article has been moved from Twee pop to Twee on the grounds "that there is no other twee". Yes there is, the word 'Twee' itself which can be applied to many things other than pop. For example, the village of Bourton on the Water is described by many as "twee", as is anything knowingly or overly cute. Of course WP isn't a dictionary, but I think the artcile move was a bit premature. Graham 04:53, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

  • What I meant was (and maybe I am wrong) but there aren't any other noun definitions for twee. Other definitions are adjectives. Kingturtle 04:59, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm not convinced by your definition of 'twee'. You make it sound like it means cute which I think is not the case. Dictionary.com gives us "affectedly dainty or refined" and "Overly precious or nice." That emphasis - 'dainty' 'precious' 'refined' is more to the normal meaning of 'twee' than 'cute'. An example Americans can relate to - almost everything sold by Martha Stewart is twee. Picture postcard quaintness rather than Hello Kitty. Harry R 18:37, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd always heard that C86 was the beginning of indiepop, which evolved into twee when Sarah came along. Pre-sarah music didn't contain so much of a childlike element as that which came after.--Tinyfolk 04:22, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is this categorization of bands as "twee" -ish objective? ...Or are there bands that are only kind of "twee"? ...And is there thought to a list, perhaps on this page, of bands that have been removed from this list? ...just curious. David Gale 03:25, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Question, isn't twee under the umbrella of indie pop? I know a lot of acts with K records is considered indie pop but not twee. Mirah would be an example of that.

i added 'park ave.' under the band listings.

  • Yes, twee pop is a subgenre of indiepop that started, from what I can tell, with Sarah Records.--149.159.85.99 17:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
    • If it's a subgenre then it should have it's own page and not be merged under indie pop. --71.228.184.225 20:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Band lists

I've moved all of these here until we WP:CITE sources to WP:V that they are twee. - brenneman(t)(c) 14:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Is this really needed? Lists of example bands to illustrate a genre are very common, as well as assigning a genre to a band on the appropriate page. Wouldn't a better policy be to leave the list on the page and let people take or add bands individually? If you object to having the list on this page, the list can be moved to a page of it's own, and discussed there. Putting the list on a discussion page decreases it's visibility and thus the chance of it actually being worked on. Arturus 09:35, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
On an additional note, after re-reading policy pages, I'm increasingly convinced that assigning genres to a band is not stopped by No Original Research, and is probably not stopped by a need for citation, being inherently verifiable, although this is on shakier ground. Basically such a verification is possible by anyone from their own experience, given knowledge of two things: the sounds the classification describes, and the sound the band possesses. A list such as this is given to give examples of the sound being discussed so that a reader can, if interested, find their music and listen to it for a better understanding, or so a reader can find additional bands in a genre they are interested in. This process, combined with a well written article, provides knowledge of what the genre sounds like. Listening to a band provides knowledge of what the band sounds like. External citations are still possible and useful, but this seems to me to be a case where it's not needed to include the information. Should you have any objections to any individual bands being on the list, by all means bring them up. Arturus 10:24, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Arturus
There is almost nothing that is inherently verifiable. This is actually an issue about Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, supported two levels down by WP:CITE. The WP:NPOV states that "[W]e should state facts and not opinions." Please have a look at Green Day to see that what genre or subgenre a band is in can be quite contentious. - brenneman(t)(c) 14:07, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Alright, that's fair. Let's see what I can do for this list. Because of the nature of the topic, can we agree to accept reviews on music oriented websites as at least verification that the opinion a band is a twee exists? If we're not going to accept that much, I'm not sure where to start here. I'll build a list of sources assuming we can agree to accept that for now. Arturus 21:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
I think it could be agreed that bands listed in bold type on twee.net's band list would be solid examples of the genre, so I have attached to the page the list of those bands.--Tinyfolk 17:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Why is there no mention of the Television Personalities on this page? Surely they invented 'Twee pop'? Baba Alex 13:02, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

  • The Television Personalities are often cited as a proto-indiepop band as well as Josef K, Orange Juice, The Go-Betweens, Dolly Mixture and even some of Jonathan Richman's solo work. Bands are not usually declared indiepop until the era of the C-86 tape. See above discussion for difference between twee pop and indiepop.--Tinyfolk 17:30, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] page title

I note that twee pop has been at twee for some time, on the ground that there's no other twee — indeed, an article about "twee" would just be a dicdef. But is twee pop actually ever described as simply "twee"? I don't think it is. Surely this article would be better at twee pop, with a redir from twee? fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 14:43, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Agree. I was suprised by this article's content, which is never a good thing. - brenneman(t)(c) 14:46, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I third that, I was expecting some kind of description of twee as in the English English sense of the word. I'm going to remove the redirect. - FrancisTyers 03:44, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cuddlecore

Cuddlecore only exists as an American genre and I edited the entry to reflect that as well as adding the two most undisputed examples of cuddlecore I know. Cub, for instance, has the slogan "Cuddlecore '94" printed on the inside liner notes of their second album, "Come Out, Come Out".--Tinyfolk 17:34, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] punk?

Regarding the removal of various punk catagories, I think that it is the case that twee legitimately traces it's origin to punk, as a part of indiepop. As such, I'd like to retain at least the punk genres catagory. For that matter, I notice it's not on the indiepop article either. I'd definitely like to add it there, even if it stays off of twee, as it as a much more direct relationship to punk. Anyone object? Arturus 09:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I'd still like to see it as a punk sub-genre as well as in indie-pop.
—Ragdoll 22:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I added them to both articles. Arturus 22:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

All alternative rock genres have roots in punk rock. So it's redundant. WesleyDodds 03:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Except for the fact that all accounts of the start of Indiepop describe it directly as a :response to and an assimilation of values with regard to the then also fairly new punk :movement. For simplicity's sake, I'll reference the most readily available account, the :pitchfork feature:
Let's say it's 1977. You live in London. And with punk going full-steam-- in this new scene :that's abandoned sophistication and chops, this scene that insists anyone can start a band-- :you start thinking: Why not me?
Only there's a problem. Punks act certain ways: They're loud and angry, or else they're arty :and clever. They yell and make unpleasant noises and put safety pins through their bodies and :belongings. And you...well, sorry, but you're actually pretty normal. You have a schoolboy :voice and you'd feel stupid spiking your hair or pulling on bondage trousers. The punks sneer :at most everything that came before them, but you don't sneer much at all, and you certainly :don't see any reason to stop loving the Kinks and Syd Barrett. Truth is, you make a terrible :punk-- so what are you going to do?
If you're Dan Treacy, you and your friends rename yourselves after talk-show hosts and start :self-releasing your songs as the Television Personalities.
Indiepop, and it's subvariety Twee, are not just influenced by punk because they're alternative. They were there at the begining of it all. That's why it's relevant to call indiepop a punk genre. Twee is a weaker case on these grounds, admitedly, but I'd still contend it works.Arturus 03:58, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Gothic rock was also there pretty early on (1979 at the latest when Bauhaus (band) released "Bela Lugosi's Dead", earlier if you count Joy Division), but it's labeled as alternative rock. Most sources I have seen do not label indie pop or twee pop as punk rock unless they consider all descendants of the genre as punk rock.
Twee pop in a way is a prime exmaple of alternative rock in that it utilized aspects of the punk movment (musical amatuerism, DIY ethics and dsitribution) towards a completely different sound. WesleyDodds 04:09, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To Twee or Not to Twee

Seriously, I never heard this term used until the early—or maybe even mid—1990s. And it was always a laughable term. Indie pop is more appropriate. And some of the key bands somehow connected to this label have existed for years before the term ever existed in a zine editor's lexicon. I say this should be merged with indie pop, but referenced in the article... Maybe even a redirect to make things easier. —SpyMagician 06:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

why anorak rock? i thought anorak meant nerd in england?


[edit] merging again

There still isn't anything in this article that isn't in the indie pop article. Can someone add in references and history that might actually add to this as a genre otherwise i'm gonna merge with indie pop. That article now refers to twee pop, twee, cuddlecore, has a section devoted to the USA and so on.

Jem 07:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

You know my opinion on ultimately keeping it separate, but following the bizarre edits of the last year or so this article in its present state is worthless. I'd say, go ahead and merge it; at some point, I'll do a top-to-bottom rewrite of the twee-pop article and re-establish it as a separate article but at the moment it would do better as a subsection of indie. Blank-and-redirect rather than delete this one, though, both for GFDL reasons (when I revive this article in its own right, I'll keep those parts that are worthwhile), and to preserve this discussion. — iridescent (talk to me!) 21:59, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Blanked and redirected. Jem 11:10, 20 August 2007 (UTC)