Talk:Tuxedo Mask/Archive 01

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Endymion Merge Discussion

I believe that the pages should be merged. After all, Princess Serenity is discussed on Usagi's page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ronakino (talk • contribs) .

  • Regarding the merge - It should be. Prince Endymion is just a brainwashed version of Mamoru Chiba. --Marcg106 22:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Agree. Alternate identities are not separate characters. Shingen 21:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree as well. -- ReyBrujo 21:50, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
  • As the Endymion article doesn't contain any information not found in the Mamoru article, I'm going to go ahead and turn it into a redirect. I do think that section of the Mamoru article could use a lot of cleanup, though. --Masamage 18:35, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


  • This page is in violation of Wikipedia rules - especially since we want to avoid copyright infringement. One screencap per article is allowed. I suggest that some of them are deleted. strideranne 23:12, 1 April 2006 (UTC)Strideranne
Blah blah as you can tell, we ignored you! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lego3400 (talk • contribs) .
We did not. This just isn't actually a rule. --Masamage 02:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Formatting Issues/Template

This page has major, major formatting issues. It's not compliant with the other pages by a long shot. I would say that except for the last two sections it should take after vaguely the Usagi Tsukino page (minus the missing 2 sections, which I hope will be fixed soon *hint* *hint*). Format it around FORMS not arcs and plot differences? Is this OK? So for example, how the Usagi page has the Civilian section, then the Princess Serenity section, then the Neo-Queen Serenity Section, so too this one should break down his character by forms, so Mamoru, Prince Endymion, etc. Is this bad or OK? I can write up a piliminary for approval and then add in details. I want to get the pages up to speed because it's slowing down other sections and parts in our Sailor Moon Project. --Hitsuji Kinno 16:11, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds excellent to me. I'd love it if you did that. :) --Masamage 18:26, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm dead tired. If you catch this before I get back to readd the lost info, please do so. I need sleep to be able to do it. >.<;; I was warned (Vandalism) for trying to reformat the page to standards, but I had to cut the info to add it properly later. But it isn't vandalism, it's growing pains. So *please* fix any missing info quickly if I don't get to it ASAP. I'll try to fix it tomorrow afternoon. It's past 12 here and I have an exam tomorrow... so forgive me for not quite finishing. I'll be more careful with the Chibiusa edits and do that this weekend after I clean up. *sleeping on keyboard* BTW, if the guy reverts it again, could you please explain to him the plans for the page, etc. If he doesn't get the idea already like, *cough* looking at the talk pages* cough* and MAYBE the pertaining projects. --;; The talk pages are there for a reason ya know.--Hitsuji Kinno 08:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
See my response at the WP:SM talk page. But that kind of thing could get really confusing, so feel free to keep discussion of specific articles in their own talk pages. Most of the project members seem to watch all of them, so there should be no trouble being heard. --Masamage 18:01, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I did the last of the editing. I took out all the plot mentions. I ended up cutting much of variations because much of it was one, based on the Tokyopop Manga and two riddled with fan speculation and interpretations that could be argued in either direction. I tried to make it more neutral and less repetitive. It should be somewhere up to code. I'd still like to weave in references, but I'm experiencing burn out. Info dump always wears me out.
BTW, that screen cap from the anime sucks compared to the formatting of the other pictures. According to what we were doing with the Sailors, shouldn't there be a picture of anime Tuxedo Mask in the slot where Mamoru currently is. Perhaps that picture could be shrunk and then moved to elsewhere in the profile. I'd suggest using either the picture from the box cover from SuperS, or finding another suitable picture.
--Hitsuji Kinno 02:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Dang. You're awesome, and if we ever meet I will totally buy you a candy bar. And yeah, it can be very tiring, especially something as big as this. But so satisfying! I haven't looked it over yet (so sleepy), but on cursory glance it looks awesome. I'll probably do my usual anal wording tweakarounds, but that's no big surprise and nothing personal. XP
Also: yes! I've been hating on that picture since the first time I saw it. We need to do exactly as you suggest; I wonder where to find a good one? The ones in the Inner Senshi articles are soooo good... --Masamage 08:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Changing Image

I really do hate that image. I couldn't find the one I was thinking of, so I found some others in the mean time.

http://www.animegalleries.net/img/17265

http://www.animegalleries.net/img/17276

http://www.animegalleries.net/img/195488

http://www.animegalleries.net/img/195489

http://www.animegalleries.net/img/1273

I also suggest adding an image of the Moonlight Knight. I kind of like this one, smaller without the DiC logo...

http://www.animegalleries.net/img/91455

Suggestions are most certainly welcome. --Hitsuji Kinno 21:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Eeeee! I love the first one! That's what we need! :DDD --Masamage 00:49, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I need a second to move forward and whoever gets to it first can do it. --Hitsuji Kinno 01:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I like the first one, too. Although, I would prefer a pic of the Moonlight Knight without that logo on it. -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 02:20, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Why are we getting rid of the Horrible Green Jacket? XD It's iconic (although quite disgusting). Allegedly he had more fashion sense in the manga - does that count as a variation?  ;) - Malkinann 09:14, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, we're not. :D It'll just move into the Profile section, the way the Senshi have their civilian shots. Fully agreed all around. --Masamage 19:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Done! I think I might replace the civilian shot, too, with one where he doesn't look like a complete sleazeball. :P Here are some ideas:
http://www.algonet.se/~khelatar/pix/indulgec.jpg
http://bishiheaven.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/mamoru.jpg (Green jacket!)
Tsukikage no Knight: http://www.tcp.com/doi/images/smoon/mamoru/tsukikage1.gif
I'm about to throw in an image of his rose-throwing, too, to match the attacking images in the Senshi profiles. --Masamage 22:19, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
The first one is a nice picture, but lacks the infamous green jacket. The second one is just lousy all around because of the graininess and is obviously a screen shot. *However* I happen to have the Anime book Sailormoon R (which should be listed, BTW). I can scan and upload them to my server, I have the one from Hitoshi Doi in better quality too. If this is fine, I'll scan a few in. (I even have the grainy screen shot one and I have which episode it came from XD) O.o;; Has musical info too... wow... we should get these books listed *wanders off topic*. --Hitsuji Kinno 16:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Two clear versions of the green-jacket shot are here and here. Two other very nice shots are this one and this one. If we use any of these, the website owner is very insistent that we credit her, but we can do that. --Masamage 21:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Do we really have to credit somebody over images they don't have the legal rights to? -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 01:39, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Geez, that got deleted fast. O_O I thought they had to give at least five days. Anyway, the picture that was there vanished, so I switched in one of these for now. Discussion is still open for picking a better one!

As for crediting her, no, we don't legally have to, but it's good manners. Besides which, Wikipedia requires us to note where we found all our pictures, so she would've gotten a link anyway. --Masamage 01:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Age gap

How much is the age gap between Usagi and Mamoru? In the manga, would it be two years (Usagi is 16 at finish, he is 18), whereas in the anime would it be four years? (he is 20) - Malkinann 09:14, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

According to "The Sailor Moon Role-Playing Game and Resource Book" Mamoru was born in 1974 and Usagi was born in 1978, which would put their ages at 20 and 16 respectively by the series' conclusion. -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 17:48, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Is their wedding in the manga a flash-forward, or do they actually get married at 16 and 18? (Very unusual in modern Japan! Though it's the ages my grandparents were. :D) --Masamage 19:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
This does coincide with Japan's marriageable age. I suppose her parents gave the okay. -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 19:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
That's probably wrong though, since she says she's preganant in the manga, the line about a new star being born and they spent the night together in the engaement scene. Which means that it was 9 months to the wedding, which also means she was 21 when she was married. I have a scan too that makes it look like she's carrying more than the dress... --Hitsuji Kinno 16:33, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, she says she feels the new star will be born soon; that doesn't mean she's already pregnant, and sleeping in the same bed is no evidence either. It's possible, but it's not known for certain (though I havent seen that picture). Also, why would it be 9 months to the wedding? And then why does that skip her ahead five years? I don't get what you mean. --Masamage 21:11, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
She's kind of naked in that picture... and he's not exactly wearing clothes either. Umm... but whatever... heavy naked make out session sleeping together is fine to surmise too. Anyhow, I'll put up the picture to this talk just for fan interest (Link only) rather than something to include to the page. And the spacing is more like 6-7 months, I would guess. Original manga OK, or you want shinzoubon? *snickers* In the Live Action Series, it did take him a number of years to propose, did it not? Kinda be in character not to explain what that ring was for... though that special was also a stab at Takeuchi's own wedding too and making fun of herself. (If you read her Punch! series). Besides that it can be up for debate, though predating TP release it was thought that she was pregnant at the wedding. Though premarital sex might be the driving issue behind the reason the view has changed, which is not uncommon in Japan since they are generally not a religious Judeo-Christian Society. 9I'd have sourcing for the last two facts) --Hitsuji Kinno 22:19, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, that's fine. But why is she 21 for the wedding? I'm still confused. --Masamage 01:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Tuxedo

In the see also I added references for where she most likely got the idea for the Tuxedo which can't fit onto the main page. Item 1 is Prince Edward of England the VII If you look at the picture there, you will find that it looks *exactly* like the one in the manga. Next I added the Black Tie, which happens to connect the Henry Poole company to the Tuxedo and Prince Edward to that Tuxedo. In that you'll also find that there is a military application for the black tie, much like the Sailor Suits. *grins* I did a fan fiction based around this... so I did the research.. I don't know how to fit this in the article though... To note, though Henry Poole might also be responsible for popularizing the Sailor suit... since he was the tailor for the royal family. However, we can blame Prince Edward for both, and it was most likely when she went searching for Sailor suits, she found out about Prince Edward and his brand of the tuxedo, and visa versa (thus Smoking Jacket if you look up Henry Poole's website and then Le Smoking Bomber)... Interesting fact to know and tell. --Hitsuji Kinno 16:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Where's the source that says the tuxedo was inspired by Prince Edward VII? I'm not doubting you; I'm sure you have it, I just can't figure out what it is. ^^;; --Masamage 04:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
O.o;; My browser must have crashed when I typed out a long answer to this. OK. On the Henry Poole website (older version) it said that Prince Edward the VII of England went to Henry Poole company who makes suits for a smoking Jacket. He wore it to Tuxedo Park where the "tuxedo" got its name. You can find the shortened version of the story here: http://www.henrypoole.com/henry_poole_story/the_tuxedo However I read an earlier version of this story which included things like the writer of Endymion, a novel was friends with Henry Poole (this is noted on the Black Tie section of wikipedia). However, the main evidence I wanted to point to on both pages is that Edward VII's tuxedo suspiciously looks like the one that Tuxedo Mask wears in the manga... look at the image here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Edward_vii_england.JPG and compare to these images: http://mangastyle.net/book1/1-cover.jpg http://mangastyle.net/book1/1-19-20A.jpg The broach looks strikingly similar. Also the Black Tie is said on the Black Tie page to have a military application, like the Sailor Suits of Japan. It was also popularized by Edward VII in this image: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AlbertEdward.jpg. This directly contributed to the use in costumes with children. XP So in another words he was a majority of the inspiration for the costume of the SM series. In summary there is a visible thread to how she could have found the information to it and a visible tribute in the choker of Tuxedo Mask. (His watch in the manga kind of looks like that broach too...). My trouble was where the hell do I fit this into the page, because it's obvious and considering she herself said she spent at least an hour a day in the Tokyo Library, I wouldn't doubt she would have found this with two points to find it from. (Sailor Suits and Tuxedos...) and even if not that Henry and Poole was friends with the author of Endymion, Benjamin Disraeli. If she was looking around for Endymion and found that book, and looked into the author (which happens with research) she could have found Henry Poole and Edward, but I think researching the origins of the Sailor Suit are more than likely which led her to Edward the VII. Anyway because it couldn't fit I put it into the other part... --Hitsuji Kinno 01:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Mask or Kamen?

Ready set, go! Which name should we use throughout these articles?

I vote 'Mask', mostly because it's not a name, so why not translate it? There's no ambiguity about the translation, that I've ever seen. I might be dissuaded, but that's my initial feeling. --Masamage 00:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I second "mask". Subtitles don't keep it as "kamen". -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 01:00, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
We should leave the original Japanese names in place. For that, I support "Kamen". --  Denelson83  01:09, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Japanese names are one thing, but "Kamen" just means "Mask". It's not meant to be a proper name. I say "Mask". Danny Lilithborne 01:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
For reference, "Tuxedo Mask" gets 88,300 google hits, while "Tuxedo Kamen" gets 34,600. --Masamage 01:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I side with google. --Kunzite 02:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you live with 'Mask', Denelson, or should we continue discussion? (While I'm at it, if you all could sound off at Talk:Sailor Senshi that would be excellent.) --Masamage 03:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

No, I can't. All article names of characters use their Japanese names. If we use "Mask" here, there would be no consistency. --  Denelson83  16:40, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Not the article name--he'll still be Mamoru Chiba, and it'll still discuss the common use of both titles. This would be only for usage in other articles, out of context. The thing is that the Japanese names we use here actually are Westernized; if everything was thoroughly Japanese, he'd be listed as Chiba Mamoru. I'm also not sure his name is meant to be a big-deal mystical title. 'Sailor Moon' is very pointedly English even though the target audience was Japanese, so it seems like that ought to be her title no matter what language you dub her into. 'Kamen', though, is simply the local language. A person's name isn't just a word to translate, but Kamen feels like it is, because it's just describing his outfit. (I can totally see his brain working when Sailor Moon first asks who he is. "I'm, uh...crap. What should I say? ...Uh, Tuxedo? ...Mask? ...Wow, way to go, Chiba.") --Masamage 21:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
If we're going to use Japanese names for everyone, why not call him Taakuzido Kamen (or however that romanizes to)? Danny Lilithborne 21:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
"Takishīdo Kamen"  ;P -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 23:36, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

lets just change it all to japanese to be sure lolz Sailor cuteness 17:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Can't do that. English-language Wikipedia. --Masamage 18:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

We decided that it would be "Japanese" for the article name (justifying this with notable character differences) and then we'd use the names inside of the article as they are best popular and correct unless ambiguous. (For example Selenity/Serenity or Elios/Helios). Therefore based on those parameters it must be Mask, and not Kamen. Why? Save headaches. 2. Save time. 3. Popularity on google with a name. 4. No ambiguoyus meanings. I think because the majority voted in favor of "mask" it should stay. if you want to be particular, add a note with the kanji, kana, and romaji on why it means mask... but that's a bit much. --Hitsuji Kinno 19:39, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Sooo....any further discussion going to happen? It's almost consensus; I would like the one voice against to be happy too, but we can't wait forever. Let's perhaps set a deadline for further comment at this weekend. After that, if no more conversation has taken place, we can probably call this decided. --Masamage 18:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I say Kamen. Calling him mask be like calling Chibi-Moon Mini-Moon! Just becuse they mean the same thing, its not. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 23:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Good point, although I'd like to point out the Google hits: 52,700 versus 16,500. --Masamage 23:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd argue that in this case, they do mean the same thing. Danny Lilithborne 23:23, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
"Tuxedo Mask" has been used in some instances in a Japanese language version of the show. i.e. Here comes the Tuxedo Mask --Kunzite 01:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Chibi can mean a host of things though, small, midget, dwarf. (Midget is closer). Chibi is actually derogatory and I would say part of the Japanese anime register, rather than an everyday word that you would find on the streets. But Kamen is in everyday Japanese and has only one meaning. There is no ambiguity to it. The reason we don't use Mini for Chibi Moon is because there are a ton of other meanings, as well as that's not a very accurate translation of the word. And I did learn Japanese, so I do understand the intricacies and I still vote in favor of Mask. Unless you want to go totally Japanese and do "Tuxedo Kamen-sama" which is actually his full title.... but that's far too Japanese for an English page. So since there are not multiple meanings and it wasn't translated wrong, Mask works just fine. --Hitsuji Kinno 02:43, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Psychometry in Anime

Though the power is not named there are indications of it in the anime as well. When Chibiusa touched his hand and just before he started to get those dreams from his future self he had a flash of Crystal Tokyo. This is a sign of psychometry where he picks up memories from an object or a person, which he seemed to do with Chibiusa. This again showed up later in the anime where he held and gave energy to Chibiusa in Super. There are a few minor instances, if I remember right besides those, but those are the two that would argue in favor of it being an unnamed, yet consistent power in the anime. It's also consistent in the manga, where it shows again, which Mamoru lending power to Chibiusa. And one could argue as well that Chibiusa has it because when she touches Chibichibi's hand she gets flashes of what happened to the other Sailor Soldiers. (Volume 18, I believe) But I'm leaving that off since it can be disputed. (i.e. she doesn't display the power before, so it could be Chibichibi, though clearly psychometry is involved.) Does anyone want to dispute this? Can I add it to the page with proper references and mentions? Or since it was not officially named should it be not added? --Hitsuji Kinno 06:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Mamoru also used his healing powers on Fish-eye who had cut his hand on glass. Hotaru also seems to be able to use these powers. Once on Chibiusa, after she was attacked by Mimete's first Daimohn, and a reverse effect on the Daimohn Ubara (the rose monster). -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 07:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that sounds great. I'd say to be specific about it, making it clear that it happens much more in the manga (and is called by name, if it is). The very fact that Mamoru has those dreams is important too, especially since most of the Sailor Senshi remember absolutely nothing without Luna's help. --Masamage 19:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Makoto is the one who names it. There was a guy who asked her if she and her friends were aliens. -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 02:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Images... Again!

Ok We need to change the PGSM image... Appently a few episodes after his appearance, the staff deciced to add a Blue Gem (or marble XD) to the top of his mask, with out any explanation. (I've been watching PGSM on Youtube since my Good PC is down)(Is it me or am I on an Image Kick?) Lego3400: The Sage of Time 22:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Why do we need to change it? :) It's just as legitimate as any other image. --Masamage 08:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Could you get a decent image of him with the jewel, but without the timestamp in the corner? - Malkinann 07:44, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Arr, the timestamp! That would indeed be a good reason for change. --Masamage 07:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Bam. --Masamage 08:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

How do you like this?. If you digitally alter an image to remove a timestamp like that, can you still put it up on Wikipedia? -- RattleMan 09:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that you can put up digitally altered images on wikipedia, as long as you say that you edited it, and how. (airbrushing out timestamp, eg.) Good job, btw.  ;) But if the "jewel" look is more characteristic, then perhaps when we replace the current image, we should try for one with a jewel, without a timestamp. - Malkinann 10:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
That's what I think, too. Also, yeah, it looks great. :) If we want a jewel picture, I recommend this. If not, I like yours. --Masamage 17:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I switched them. -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 22:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! --Masamage 23:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)