Talk:Turkish literature

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Archive (20 February 2006–31 May 2006)

Contents

[edit] Elif Shafak

Why isn't she mentioned in the article? Is that because she isn't considered significant enough? She is one my favourite writers. Tauphon 08:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Lots of my favorites aren't mentioned in the article, either. However, she may well be significant enough in terms of contemporary literature, and I'd be happy to work her into the article if you give me a bit of time. —Saposcat 10:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations

I think this is one of the best Turkey-related articles in Wikipedia. I congratulate and thank everyone who were involved in editing it. Metb82 15:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No Turkish sci-fi?

Since the FA is supposed to be comprehensive, I am assuming that there is no Turkish science fiction literature, nor fantasy literature?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:19, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, there have only been a few very recent novels in the sci-fi genre, and none that I know of in the fantasy genre. Whether or not that rather miniscule output needs to be put into the article or not, I don't know; but there certainly is not any sort of sci-fi or fantasy tradition in Turkish literature.
There are, of course, readers in Turkey who enjoy both genres, but essentially that taste is entirely fed by translations rather than original Turkish material. —Saposcat 04:04, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I think this is quite interesting. Why the tastes of Turkish readers - and authors - are different from the 'West' where sci-fi is so popular? Not only West has sci-fi authors, Poland, Russia and Japan also have many authors and fans, just to name few examples I know rather well. So if this is not the case in Turkey it would represent a significant difference.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:04, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
A friend pointed me to an interesting reading: [1]. Unfortunately this is just an abstract :( --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 00:23, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
  • There are few Turkish Sci-fi writers like K. Murat Güney, Mehmet Emin Arı or Müfit Özdeş and some fantasy writers like Barış Müstecaplıoğlu but i think they are not very popular. (especially outside of Turkey)

yeah but science fiction came late rin the 19th century.-Vmrgrsergr 20:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

True, there were some late Ottoman sci-fi works (some of them very interesting and even somewhat dystopian, from what I've heard), but none of them have been transcribed yet (though some transcriptions are in process at the moment), and so access to them—and hence the amount of referenceable texts concerning them—is extremely limited (for the nonce). —Saposcat 12:30, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More detail needed

I think that better organisation is needed here.

There should be clear sub-headings

1. Pre-Islamic Literature - Orkhon Inscriptions, Dede Korkut, Oguzname 2. Karakhanid Literature - Divani Lugat-i Turk, Yusuf Has Hajib "Kutat-Ku Bilik" (Blessings and Wisdom), ABC of Truth compiled by Ahmat Yuknaki etc etc 3. Selcuk Literature - Yunus Emre, Bektashi, Nasreddin Hoca, KaramanOgulari etc etc (Beyliks literature aswell) 4. Timurid Literature - Mir Ali Shir Nava'i, Babur's Baburname,Adib Ahmad Yugnaki “Hibatu-l-Hakoyik”, Horazmi “Muhabbatnoma”, Husainiy (Husain Baikara)Risola-Treatize, Abulgozi Bahodirhon “Shajarai-tarokima, etc etc

Everything after is well organised but more information is needed for pre-Ottoman Turkish.

Regards

—Johnstevens5

I appreciate your efforts to add this information; however, please try not to do so by simply copying information/text from other sites. I have deleted (see edit history) the paragraphs which I found to be copied; I will, however, add the information back in, rewriting it so as not to violate copyright, when I get the chance.
Please try to remember also that this is a featured article, and as such, any major additions should be "tested out" here, on the talk page, first, so as not to lower the article's quality.
Thanks again for your efforts and suggestions. —Saposcat 06:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
They were not copied, there in my own words, however there basically facts so the material is going to be the same what-ever way its put.
The section about the Karamanids is especially important as they raised Turkish to the level of official language and language of all state institutions.
This is in my own words
The conversion to Islam at the start of the 10th century brought about radical changes to literature. The Kutadgu Bilig ((The Wisdom of Royal Glory)) written by Yusuf Has Hacib is an important work and consisted of 6,500 couplets. It was practically written in pure Turkish, and included views on government, philosophy and religion. Another important literary work written around this time was Mahmud Kashgari's epic Divan-i Lugat-it Turk (Dictionary of Turkish languages) masterpiece, which was written to show that Turkish was a language just as rich as Arabic.
Its very important in regards to the development of Turkish literature, I think it should stay, could I add an image of the map in it? as it is one of the first Turkish maps in existance.
Ok I've edited the Karamnid part alot more, what do you think? still more work needed?
Regards.
—Johnstevens5
I question whether those are your own words; here is the text from this page:
"The conversion to Islam at the start of the 10th century brought about radical changes to literature. The Kutadgu Bilig was practically written in pure Turkish, and included views on state and religion. Another important literary work written around this time was the Divan-i Lugat-it Turk (Dictionary of Turkish languages), which was written to show that Turkish was a language just as rich as Arabic."
And your text, with additions in bold:
"The conversion to Islam at the start of the 10th century brought about radical changes to literature. The Kutadgu Bilig ((The Wisdom of Royal Glory)) written by Yusuf Has Hacib is an important work and consisted of 6,500 couplets. It was practically written in pure Turkish, and included views on government, philosophy and religion. Another important literary work written around this time was Mahmud Kashgari's epic Divan-i Lugat-it Turk (Dictionary of Turkish languages) masterpiece, which was written to show that Turkish was a language just as rich as Arabic."
Changes like these (adding the author's name, changing "state" to "government", and the like) do not make it your own text; it is still a quotation, and would need to be attributed.
Also, please keep in mind that I'm not questioning the importance or relevance of the information you'd like to put in; I'm trying to keep it in, but—as it says in the note at the top of this page—"without compromising previous work", which your reorganization is doing. This is a featured article, and as such, any such major changes need to be thoroughly discussed here before going into the article itself.
As for the map, I don't think it would quite fit well into this article, but would be perfect for articles on the Kutadgu Bilig or the Divan-i Lugat-it Turk. —Saposcat 14:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi,

I've edited it to this, is it fine?

The conversion to Islam at the start of the 10th century brought about radical changes to literature. Mahmud Kashgari's epic Divan-i Lugat-it Turk (Dictionary of Turkish languages) masterpiece, which was written to show that Turkish was a language just as rich as Arabic. It was practically written in pure Turkish, and included views on government, philosophy and religion.

I think the Divan-i Lugat-it Turk is very important and essential for this page as its one of the earilest "large" works.

This is important

Common Thoughts of Socrates and Yusuf Khass Hajib on Wisdom and Virtue

http://www.ishim.net/ishimj/5/06.pdf

Also this is important

The subjects of the plaques were jointly chosen by a group from the University of Pennsylvania, and the Columbia Historical Society of Washington D.C. in consultation with authoritative staff members of the Library of Congress. The selection was approved by a special committee of five Members of the House of Representatives, the Architect of the Capitol and his associates.

The plaster models of these reliefs may be seen on the walls of the Rayburn House Office Building subway terminal. In chronological order the lawgivers are:

Hammurabi (c. 2067-2025 B.C.); Moses (c. 1571-1451 B.C.); Lycurgus (c. 900 B.C.); Solon (c. 595 B.C.); Gaius (c. 110-180 A.D.); Papinian (c. 200 A.D.); Justinian (c. 483-565); Tribonian (c. 500-547 A.D.); Maimonides (c. 1135-1204 A.D.); Gregory IX (c. 1147-1241 A.D.); Innocent III (1161-1216 A.D.); de Monfort (1200-1265 A.D.); St. Louis (1214-1270 A.D.); Alphonso X (1221-1284 A.D.); Edward I (1239-1307 A.D.); Suleiman (1494-1566 A.D.); Grotius (1583-1645 A.D.); Colbert (1619-1683 A.D.); Pothier (1699-1772 A.D.); Blackstone (1723-1780 A.D.); Mason (1726-1792 A.D.); Jefferson (1743-1826 A.D.); Napoleon (1769-1821 A.D.).

Thus we learn that Suleiman (1494-1566), the sixteenth on this list, whose epithet is Lawgiver (he recodified the laws of the Ottoman empire), is regarded as an individual whose actions and thoughts have influenced the formation of the U.S. law; therefore our actions. One can learn more about Suleiman's reign by reading works about him. However, a factor concerning Suleiman needs to be considered: What influenced his mind?

Suleiman's ancestors in the Ottoman dynasty (13-20th centuries) have established a palace school. The purpose of this institution was twofold: to educate the future rulers (their own off spring) and to simultaneously train the future high level bureaucracy. In this manner, the high level bureaucrats and the rulers would know each other, from their earliest ages. As can be expected, Suleiman was also a student.

The palace school instructors also had to train future teachers, to maintain successful continuity. Among other subjects, statecraft (what we may term Public Administration) was taught at the palace school. One of the earliest known manuals of statecraft anywhere is Balasagun'lu Yusuf's KUTADGU BILIG. It was completed in 1070/1 C.E. in the heart of Asia, four centuries prior to the voyage of Columbus, and dedicated to Tavgach Han, the ruler of the Karakhanids in Central Asia. An English translation by Robert Dankoff is available, under the title Wisdom of Royal Glory: KUTADGU BILIG (Chicago, 1983). KUTADGU BILIG has three known mss. One of them is referenced as the Herat copy. According to a note found on the Herat mss, the volume was brought to Istanbul in 1474 (still before the Columbus voyage) from Tokat in Asia minor by Fenerizade Kadi Ali, for the specific needs of Abdurrezzak Seyhzade Bahshi. The late Professor Resit Rahmeti Arat makes the following observation concerning this note:

In the Ottoman bureaucracy, there were chanceries managing the official correspondence with the Central Asian states. At their head, there was an educated individual with the title 'Bahshi' who knew the Central Asian conditions well; often they themselves were from those regions. Seyhzade Abddurrezzak Bahshi is such a person during the time of Fatih Sultan Mehmet (Mehmet II), working in Istanbul. Thus we understand why the said copy of KUTADGU BILIG is brought to Istanbul in 879/1474. However, it becomes difficult to trace the peregrinations of that work afterwards. On page 190, there is another note: "purchased from blacksmith Hamza; next to Molla Hayreddin's friday chapel; as witnessed by Hoca Haci Dellal. This Hoca Hayreddin mentioned is a teacher of Fatih Sultan Mehmet, and died in 880/1475.

Recalling that Fatih died in 1481, his son Bayazit II in 1512, and so his son Yavuz Selim in 1520; Selim's son, Suleiman, ruled 1520-1566, one might place KUTADGU BILIG into perspective, by briefly considering similar works from other cultures, contents and messages.

NOTE: Extracted and translated (with additions) by the author from a much longer paper he presented to a Toyo Bunko (Tokyo) audience. That original paper previously appeared in: Annals of Japan Association for Middle East Studies No. 7, 1992. Pp. 173-220. [Reprinted in Yeni Forum Vol. 13, No. 277, Haziran 1992.]

About the author: H. B. PAKSOY has taught at the Ohio State University, Franklin University, University of Massachusetts-Amherst, the Central Connecticut State University.

Over the past two decades, some fifty of his research papers have appeared in over forty-five periodic journals and scholarly collections, in ten countries, on the European, Asian, and North American continents. In addition to the present volume, Dr. Paksoy also published (as author or editor) seven other books: THE BALD BOY AND THE MOST BEAUTIFUL GIRL IN THE WORLD (Lubbock: ATON, 2003) ESSAYS ON CENTRAL ASIA (Lawrence, KS: Carrie, 1999); INTERCULTURAL STUDIES (Co-Editor)(Simon and Schuster Education Group, 1998); TURK TARIHI, TOPLUMLARIN MAYASI, UYGARLIK (Izmir: Mazhar Zorlu Holding, 1997); CENTRAL ASIA READER: The Rediscovery of History; (New York: M. E. Sharpe, 1994); CENTRAL ASIAN MONUMENTS (Istanbul: Isis Press, 1992); ALPAMYSH: Central Asian Identity Under Russian Rule (Hartford, Connecticut: AACAR, 1989).

H. B. PAKSOY earned his D. Phil. from Oxford University, England (with a Grant from the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals of the Universities of the United Kingdom), M.A. at the University of Texas at Dallas (with a National Science Foundation Project Grant Assistantship), and B.S. at Trinity University (with Bostwick Scholarship)

I found an image of the Kutadgu Bilig

Regards

—Johnstevens5

All of the above is great information, but what you have to remember is that this article is a general overview of Turkish literature. As such, there should not be this sort of extensive information about any single work in this article, though it would be appropriate for the "Kutadgu Bilig" page or the (as yet non-existent) "Divan-i Lugat-it Turk" (which you are welcome to create if you like).
A mention of the "Divan-i Lugat-it Turk" may (or may not) be in order in the article (though I personally think it would be much more appropriate to mention it in the Turkish language article than in an article dealing with literature), but it certainly does not need an entire paragraph in the introductory section, which is already integral as is. And the new version of the paragraph that you provide is still not your own words, but a quote with bits added here and there. —Saposcat 15:53, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi
Sorry if I'm not applying to the rules correctly, I'm new to Wiki so please excuse me.
I understand the point about Kutadgu Bilig and there is a page for this which is linked so the information is accessable.
However, the "Divan-i Lugat-it Turk" is a very important work, there is so much information in it regarding Turks society, food recipies, words, games etc
Kâshgharî's dictionary is a rich source for Turkic views of their position within Islamic history and society. Based in broad fieldwork among Central Asian Turkic peoples and written in Arabic, Kâshgharî's work is a key source for Turkic linguistic and cultural history. He makes his dictionary a canon or "container" for Turkic culture, assessing words, practices, oral tradition and beliefs in terms of his own carefully worked out ethnic ideology. Amidst the complex ethnic interactions of the Islamic world, Kâshgharî makes his dictionary into a vehicle for defining what it is to be Türk, and explaining why it matters. He is a Türk nationalist from a Qarakhanid ruling family, and directs his definitional statement at an audience of Arab scholars and officials. His methods of collection and presentation fit within an accepted school of Arabic lexicography, but he uses this scholarly form to pursue highly politicized goals.
Kâshgharî gives the Türks a high place in the Muslim moral cosmos. He writes that the Türks are Allah's own army, named by him, and settled "in the most exalted spot and in the finest air on Earth. . . . [with virtues] such as beauty, elegance, refinement, politeness, reverence, respect for elders, loyalty, modesty, dignity and courage. . . ." (DLT 1 and 177). He writes that Muhammad said to his followers, "Learn the language of the Turks, because their rule will last a long time" (DLT 2). Kâshgharî does not personally attest to the validity of this hadith, but he says that if it is sound, "then learning [the language of the Türks] is a religious duty; and if it is not sound, still wisdom demands it" (DLT 3).
By collecting and recontextualizing the verbal materials of daily life Kâshgharî creates a monumental canon of Turkic culture organized according to his ethnic ideology and political program. Whereas al-Jâhiz emphasized the characteristics of Türks as independent and resourceful warriors, and Kai Kâ'ûs described how to judge their characteristics as slaves or servants, Kâshgharî uses the broadest possible description of Turkic oral and material culture to display the Türks' excellence and comparability to the Arabs in all aspects of cultural life. For his Arab audience to have a comprehensive understanding of who the Türks are, they must be given the fullest possible description of what Türks do and say, what these practices mean and how they reflect on Türk character
His dictionary has two systems for organizing the disparate information he includes within it: lists of lexical items, and two lengthy grammatical discussions. Almost all of the cultural texts appear as examples within the lexical entries, and are highly decontextualized. In particular, his couplets and quatrains seem to be parts of roughly fifty longer songs, but he uses separately according at importance to explaining the practical skills of daily living. He particularly emphasizes the details of preparing foods,(43) while he tends to simply translate into Arabic the terms for medicine, clothing, housewares, tools, and weapons, and describe them in more general functional terms. He seems to give cooking skills a special place in Türk culture, or he feels foods are the most difficult cultural terms to translate accurately into Arabic. But the details given for at least twenty dishes, with roughly another forty food items described, suggest a great deal of pride in the care and effort that goes into this cultural focus. It seems to be reflected as well in his many proverbs stressing the values of hospitality and the feeding of guests.
In addition to food, Kâshgharî describes a few children's games in sufficient detail to actually play them. Boys are said to play a word game in which the leader names animals with horns and they are repeated by the other players until the leader slips in the name of an animal without horns and defeats those who repeat it after him (DLT 603, 609-610).
Kâshgharî's dictionary clearly manifests his theory that the substance of Türk culture distinguishes it from other cultures. He stresses the ordinary activities of daily life, and completely neglects history except as it is represented in shared cultural knowledge such as legends and songs. The dictionary enables him to present a cultural canon of typical Türk behavior and everyday beliefs framed around the medium of the most commonplace of all shared daily social activity, talk. He frames this collection of words, cultural texts and practices within a statement of cultural identity: these are all the cultural practices that distinguish Türks from surrounding peoples, and make them worthy of great respect. In the body of his collection, he makes repeated clarifications of the cultural identity of the users of each practice or word.
Yazmas atim bolmas,
yangilmas bilgä bolmas.
There is no marksman who does not miss,
there is no counselor who does not err (DLT 470. I would suggest "Without missing one will not became a marksman, without error one will not become wise").
The songs and legends present shared ideas about the past and the natural and social world, while the proverbs are shared ways to think about the present and shape the future: they are guides to behavior, standards for dealing with situations that might come up. They are not given in terms of what was done with them in the past, but what can and should be done with them in the future. They are generative ways to creatively apply Türk culture to preserve the Türk essence of behavior.
Kâshgharî felt that recording pure Türk culture was the best way to preserve and protect it, creating standards for distinguishing genuine Turkic tradition from spurious. His contemporary, Yûsuf Khâss Hâjib, was the first of a series of Turkic authors who used Turkic oral cultural resources to create a tradition of written literature that was like Iranian and Arabic literature in form, while maintaining distinctively Turkic style and content. Turkic authors after Kâshgharî created literature that combined Turkic language and its concepts and poetic principles of proverbial composition with Arabo-Persian rhyme schemes and generic frame and an Islamic orientation.
TURKIC LITERATURE AND THE POLITICS OF CULTURE IN THE ISLAMIC WORLD © 1998 Nathan Light[/quote]
—User:Johnstevens5
Hey, no need to apologize for being new to Wikipedia; it takes time to get used to.
Again, you obviously have some great resources regarding "Divan-i Lugat-it Turk"; but again, the work doesn't need more than a brief mention in this article (and I still think it might fit better into the Turkish language article or—given the information above—the Culture of Turkey article or some such thing), in that this article is a general summary. Look at this article, for instance, and you'll notice that very few single works receive anything more than a sentence or two.
Keep in mind, however, that—although the "Divan-i Lugat-it Turk" page does not currently exist (as far as I know)—you can easily create it. If you do so, however, be very careful about copyright and properly citing sources. —Saposcat 21:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major mistakes

Although this article is an FA, it has some major mistakes. For example, it does not differenciate between the Turkish language and the Turkic languages. It also does not differenciate between Turkish literature (the literature composed in the Turkish language) and literature in Turkic languages. The article also claims that Non-Turkish peoples, such as the Karakhanids, were "Turkish". While the Karakhanids were indeed Turkic, they were not Turkish. Someone needs to fix these problems. Tājik 21:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

You confused Karakhanids with Karamanid, an Anatolian Turkish Beylik. :) I see what you mean, but there aren't major mistakes I think. The article makes the distinction where neccessary, if there is a small mistake somewhere, it was unintentional. Baristarim 03:54, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
No, he was right about the Karakhanid reference; I've cleared that up.
Apart from that, there is no major distinction being made between Turkic and Turkish because, for the vast majority of the article, it is an irrelevant distinction: the focus is on literature in the Ottoman Turkish and Turkish languages. The only place where subjects Turkic have any relevance are in the bits of early history (epic and folk traditions, etc.); in that regard, it is clearly stated that—to give one example—the Book of Dede Korkut is not Turkish, but Turkic. If you claim there are any other "major mistakes", fine—but detail them and point them out so that, if necessary, they can be corrected. Cheers. —Saposcat 08:46, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the edits. Article looks better now. Tājik 12:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rifat or Rıfat?

According to tr:Oktay Rifat Horozcu and de:Oktay Rifat, his name is spelled with the Turkish dotted I. However, the article on the English Wikipedia (Oktay Rıfat) uses the dotless I. Which one is correct? Khoikhoi 08:59, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

It uses the dotted i; it's definitely "Oktay Rifat". —Saposcat 09:08, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Khoikhoi 09:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heavily influenced

...is used twice in the introduction, in practically identical contexts, in the first paragraph and the third paragraph. Since this is a featured article, I think we should avoid repetitive expressions.

Regarding the footnoted comment coming after Karamanoğlu Mehmet Bey's declaration of Turkish as the official language of the state, I am not sure that we would add an observation like "Interestingly, the text of Arizona's State Official English Law[2] contains five words from Latin and that many Hebrew words". All the cited words are part of the Turkish language in this context, unless we are looking through a extremely narrow Öztürkçeci objective or if we want to stress the "heavily influenced" part yet a third time. Cretanforever 14:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Once I find a better way to phrase "heavily influenced", I'll probably change it, since you have a point. However, the second occurrence of the phrase shouldn't just be stricken out, as you did before, since it links to Persian and Arabic literature (as opposed to language, which the first occurrence does).
You also have a point about the footnote; I've changed the wording (I actually put the "Interestingly" in there originally as a sort of sarcastic swipe against the Öztürkçeciler and their ilk, who were pressuring the article a bit at the time, but I have now revised it). Again, though, I think it would be good not to just delete the information about the words, since it gives a concrete example that would make the language issue more tangible for people not knowledgeable in the relevant languages. Cheers. —Saposcat 15:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The repetition of "heavily influenced" in the intro has been reworded now. Cheers. —Saposcat 16:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Refer to National Library of Turkey, Millî Kütüphane??

You can also find some very nice 'treasures' of this library at http://libraries.theeuropeanlibrary.org/Turkey/treasures_en.xml Shall we include it here? Fleurstigter 16:11, 5 March 2007 (UTC)