Talk:Turkish bath

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Turkish bath article.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

	Turkey Portal This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Turkey, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Turkey-related topics. Please visit the the participants page if you would like to get involved. Happy editing!
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
	edit · history · watch · refresh To-do list for Turkish bath:
No to-do list assigned; you can help us in improving the articles in the same category

Contents 1 Merger? 1.1 Merger 2 I do not see a relation! 3 Europe 4 Requested move 4.1 Survey 4.2 Discussion 5 Image removed

[edit] Merger?

Obviously the term Turkish bath can also apply to the oriental hamman, not the other way around, so the suggested merger direction is absurd! Does anyone know whether there are other traditions as well? Fastifex 13:27, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

---

The suggested merger is not useful because it merges different types of bath, as anyone who had used them would soon realise.

The Victorian Turkish Bath (= the Irish Roman bath) uses a series of increasingly hot rooms to sweat in air which is as dry as possible—go to Harrogate or Baden-Baden; the Islamic hammam is steamy and humid because the dry air is affected by the water used to bathe onself within the hot areas—go to Paris or anywhere where there is an Islamic community; the Russian bath or banya is a hot steam bath (often erroneously called a Turkish bath in the UK)—go to Russia or New York or, if you like plastic boxes, to a health club or hotel; the sauna is initially heated with dry air, to which small quantities of water are added from time to time to give a rush of hot air—go to Scandinavia or your health club or hotel.

The Victorian Turkish Bath and the Islamic Hammam are both derived from the Roman bath which goes back at least as far as Sparta.

For a more detailed discussion, see: http://www.victorianturkishbath.org/_3TOPICS/AtoZTopics/Technology/WetOrDry/WetOrDryEng.htm

---

Certainly the turkish bath and the hammam are one-and-the-same, at least throughout the Middle East. If the Victorian Turkish Bath is different, perhaps the present entry for "Turkish Bath" should be changed to "Victorian Turkish Bath".

---

I can not find any information confirming the wiki's claim of tellak prostitution, homosexuality, etc in ottoman times.

[edit] Merger

(Note to myself.) This was the merge. -- RHaworth 13:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I do not see a relation!

Hi there.

From my extensive studies of Turkish culture and history, I vehemently disagree with the notion of tellak homosexuality or prostitution. This article does not source any such claim and thus the homosexuality/prostitution aspect is baseless and might mislead many readers. I will remove it, the LGBT category and consequently the Gay Bathouse wikilink within 5 days (which should prove more than enough time to back up any such claims), because really, they have absolutely no relation! Furthermore, I will edit the Tellak subcategory to reflect the true nature of the position. Unless someone can provide hard facts regarding the occurance of homosexuality in ancient or contemporary hamams. In any case, I assert that the homosexuality claims are entirely false and baseless and were put there by User:Haiduc in the first place, who is a self-proclaimed homosexual paedophile (Pederasty).

Taken from an early version of his user page: "which means that I like to have anal sex with little boys. It is a time-honored tradition that was celebrated in all cultures and in all histories, and it is my mission to reflect that on Wikipedia."

I don't mean to be disrespectful, however, he has made his intentions and goals on wikipedia clear and his claims are false in regards to Turkish hamams and thus must be corrected. Fatih Kurt 14:04, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not know where you got that quote but it certainly does not have anything to do with me, was not written by me, and reflects only on the person who contributed it (maybe a vandal?). I find your personal attack completely outside the spirit of this project, and while I have no interest in pursuing the matter with the authorities, as would be correct to do, I will suggest to you that mud slinging is a waste of time for you and everyone else. As for the Turks and their romance with boys, as a local informer told me in Istanbul not so long ago, "we are doctors." Where have you been? Haiduc 16:53, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Contemporary Hammams and Homosexuality

I respect your strong feelings on this subject and appreciate your temperance of waiting 5 days before removing references. However there are independent references available as evidence of the contemporary use of some Hammams as spaces for men to have sex with men, so to say that Hammams have "absolutely no relation" to homosexuality or gay bathhouses is incorrect. Some sources below:

1. The book "Closet Space" by Michael P. Brown (ISBN 0415187648) discusses the issue based on experience in the 1990s. Michael Brown notes that "While there were no gay clubs, organisations or bars, there was the hammam...", "It was a place where men could go to have sex with men."
2. This article by Capital Xtra highlights the Istanbul street where a well known bathhouse attracts male sex-workers. See Xtra! for more information on the magazine.
3. This interview with Opoth's Magazine discusses the hammam culture and the problem with rent boys (a profile of Opoth Magazine can be found here).
4. The site IstanbulGay.com (owned by Sunset Travel) notes that "In fact there are few hammams (Turkish baths) worth visiting for gay people, and their prices are twice more than they normally would be, just because they allow gay action. Besides, they are not very well kept or clean."
5. For further evidence I suggest researching arrests occurring in or around hammams for "public exhibitionism," and "offenses against public morality".

Perhaps you could find some published sources to support your point of view and we can include a range of representative sources and reach a neutral point of view that is the stated aim of wikipedia? -- Ashley VH 15:24, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Editing to commence soon

I have been in contact with Professor Micheal P. Brown regarding his book "Closet Space", he has told me that he quoted that line from Professor Neil Miller's book "Out in the World". After this referral, I thus naturally inquired to Professor Miller concerning the subject and he has said he has extremely limited knowledge regarding homosexuality in Ottoman Hamams.

I have included the direct and unedited quotes below -

Professor Micheal P. Brown:

“

Fatih, You should contact Neil Miller, who I think I was quoting, via his book 'Out in the World'. He could be reached through his publisher. Michael Brown Associate Professor of Geography The University of Washington Box 353550 Seattle, WA USA 98195-3550 Fax: 206-543-3313 michaelb@u.washington.edu http://faculty.washington.edu/michaelb

”

Professor Neil Miller:

“

Dear Fatih, I don't know very much about hammams in the Ottomon Empire..., and I'm not sure where exactly in my book Michael Brown found that quote. If I can help you in any other way, do let me know. Best Wishes, Neil Miller

”

Consequently, we can see that both faculty members have little or no factual knowledge concerning homosexuality in Ottoman Hamams. If two professor's (which is a role that is supposed to be the epitome of un-bias & trust) who are experts in LGBT issues don't know anything about the topic, then how can we include the material based on a few sensationalist and extremely biased articles on the internet and a biased magazine? I don't think we can, the facts simply do not support the claims.

It has indeed been 5 days since my original argument, and as promised, I will now edit out the aforementioned areas. Although widespread on the internet as rumour, Ottoman Hamams had nothing to do with homosexuality. I cannot allow for fellow readers and editors to be swayed with false information.

I'll edit out the parts concerning homosexuality now and will update the tellak portion as soon as I have time to write up an accurate paragraph depicting them... and yes, I do have credible, peer reviewed articles concerning them, so there's no need for anybody to be worried.

Sorry I made this so long.

EDIT: For those concerned, I am also going to look for related articles that claim Ottoman Hamams had homosexual behaviour present and edit the content out, based on my claims. Thank you.

Fatih Kurt 15:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

See comments by AshleyVH for rationale for not removing documented material of long standing in the article. Your cited correspondence is of no relevance here. Haiduc 15:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you still intend to remove the Category:LGBT and reference to Gay bathouse in disregard of the documented use of Hammams by gay sex workers? I'm not sure how you can classify the article by journalist and author Douglas Victor Janoff, and his interviews about gay hate crimes in Turkey as "rumour" or false. Are you also convinced that there have never been arrests for "offences against public morality" due to alleged homosexual activity as a result of people meeting in Hammams? I note that much of the historical information you aim to remove has been published by Lambda, Istanbul on this website. -- Ashley VH 22:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Islamic tenets encouraged pious muslims to clean the entire body with water ghusl up to 5 times a day. Therefore, hammams were often built as accessories to mosques. Traditionally, the masseurs in the baths, male are called tellak in Turkish while female are called "natir", helped wash clients There is ample evidence the tellak and natir's roles was filled by adult attendants who specialize in more prosaic forms of scrubbing and massage, just like it is today. Their duties were just as washers, not as sex workers. Prostitutes on the other hand are called fahise in turkish, while a brothel is a kerhane, literally place or house of filth. It is illogical that a house of prostitution would be built as an accessory to a mosque, an Islamic house of worship. According to Islamic tenets homosexuality is a sin and homosexuals burn in hell for eternity. See relevant quran verses prphet Lut and the kutubu sitte hadith collection; he Advent of Prophet Lut(Lot): The Prophet Lut (peace be upon him) was contemporary of Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him). He was a nephew and follower of the Faith of his uncle. He was the resident of Ur, an ancient town in Mesopotamia God conferred prophethood upon him.

He was commanded to leave his native land and go to Sodom and Gomorra to warn and reform the people who were indulged in grave sins such as homosexual intercourse and robbery. The Holy Qur'an says:

"And Lut (remember) when he said to his folk: Will you commit abomination such as no creature ever did before. Lo! you come with lust unto men instead of women. Nay, but you are wanton folk." (7:80, 81)

In another Verse the Holy Qur'an throws a light on the character of those sinning people. It says:

"What? Do you not come to males and commit robbery on the highways and do evil deeds in your meeting?" (29: 29)

The Prophet Lut Preaches and is Opposed: The Prophet Lut (peace be upon him) was an alien to those people. He began to preach the religion of God energetically. He advised the people to guard themselves against the punishment from God. He exhorted them to abandon sinful ways. He told them that God had created woman for them to satisfy their lust. They did not listen to the admonitions of their Prophet. They ridiculed and threatened him of dire consequences. They retorted that he would be expelled from that town in case he did not stop preaching and rebuking them. The Holy Qur'an affirms:

"And the answer of his people was only that they said (to one another): Turn them out of your township. They are folk who seek to keep pure." (7:82)

The same idea is expressed in the following Verses:

"They said: If you desist not, 0' Lut, you will soon be of the outcast. He said: I am, in fact, of those who hate your conduct. My Lord! save me and my household from what they do." (26: 167-169)

Gradually time passed by and the Prophet Lut (peace be upon him) did not achieve remarkable success on reforming those sinful persons. They were shamelessly addicted to grave sins and his warnings simply exasperated them.

Angels Appear as Guests: One day three angels in the disguise of handsome young boys came to Prophet Lut (peace be upon him) and they conveyed to him a special message from Almighty Allah. The Prophet Lut (peace be upon him) and his followers were directed to leave the town because something very dreadful was going to happen. When the people got wind of the visit of charming boys they tried to invade the house of Prophet Lut(peace be upon him) and demanded of him to deliver the guests to them. The Prophet was much upset and he said:

"O' my people! Here are my daughters! They are purer for you! Beware of Allah and degrade me not in (the presence of) my guests. Is there not among you any upright man ?" (11: 78)

They rejected this appeal of the Prophet and said:

"Well, you know that we have no right to your daughters and well, you know what we want." (11:79)

The Prophet was much disappointed and said:

"Would that I had strength to resist you or had some strong support." (11: 80)

The Angels Convey Message: The Prophet Lut (peace be upon him) warned the people of the inevitable punishment in case they insisted on committing indecency. They laughed and doubted his character. When all efforts were ended in smoke, the angels who were in the form of human beings, said:

"O' Lut, Lo! We are messengers of thy Lord; they shall not reach thee. So travel with thy people in a part of the night and not one of you turn round all save thy wife." (11:81)

The Prophet Lut is Delivered and his Nation Destroyed: The Prophet Lut (peace be upon him) and his adherents left the city in the fading part of the night and took shelter in a place of safety. Soon after an uproar took place. A sudden tremendous noise shock the earth. It was a scary and dreadful earthquake. The houses crumbled down and lofty buildings smashed to nothing but rubble. The rocks that went up in the air hit those who tried to escape. All arrogant sinners were completely destroyed. The Prophet Lut (peace be upon him) and his followers were saved but his wife could not survive because she sympathised with the sinners. The Holy Qur'an gives a brief description of this mishap in the following Verses:

"Then the (awful) cry overtook them at the sunrise: And We utterly confounded them, and We rained upon them stones of heated clay. Lo! therein verily are portents for those who read the signs." (15:73-75)

--Kahraman 01:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone else think the page has drifted away from NPOV when phrases such as "homosexuals burn in hell for eternity" are included on a page not about the concept of sin or the Qur'an? I have reverted to the previous version for this reason. Anonymous user Kahraman, please note that it might be an idea to express your comments more briefly if you want them to be read. Quoting endless paragraphs from the Qur'an is not helpful or collaborative. See Wikipedia:Article development for some tips. -- Ashley VH 10:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Europe

Your claim that the section "Introduction of Turkish baths to Europe (The Victorian Turkish bath)" is your copyright is, I submit, ridiculous. The section in question is virtually unchanged from this state of the Turkish bath article dated 2006 May 23. That article has an extensive edit history with multiple editors.

If you really can substantiate your claim, you may do so at Wikipedia:Copyright problems but, in the mean time, any further deletion of the section will result in the article being protected. -- RHaworth 14:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

This article has been renamed from Hammam to Turkish bath as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 17:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image removed

Why was this image removed? I thought it was quite useful as an illustration. Ashley VH (talk) 10:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Has been put back. Guss2 (talk) 11:58, 21 January 2008 (UTC)