Talk:Turkish Armed Forces

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[edit] Questions regarding conscription

Do the children of those with duel Turkish citizenship have to join the Turkish army through mandatory conscription? Is this affected by whether the children have applied for duel citizenship themselves?

Does country of residence make a difference? --SolDrury 08:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Children with dual Turkish Citizenship do also have to join the Turkish Army through mandatory conscription, when they reach the appropriate age. This is not affected by country of residence or whether the children have applied for dual citizenship.

The only option is if the dual citizenship holder is currently working abroad, in their other country of nationality. They can then defer their military and once they have worked for 3 years or more they can apply to pay a fee to the Turkish Military in order to have the right to do a reduced military service term of 1 month. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 57.66.49.133 (talk) 00:51, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright

I have removed the listings/nos of military equipment for Turkey, which were lifted off my website: European Defence (www.european-defence.co.uk), without prior permission. I'm afraid that reproduction of some of the content, including anything from the Armed Forces Guide, is only available for a fee. If you wish to again reproduce this information for such a fee, contact me via the website. Michael Fishpool, European Defence

I would be grateful if you could also remove such information from the earlier archive. In particular, the tables were lifted off my website without prior permission and with no acknowledgement. Some were also inaccurate/wrong, and "CeeGee" used these until they were updated on the European Defence website.

While I am always happy to see quotes or references to the European Defence website, I am not so happy to see people lift the material for use elsewhere.

I will continue to monitor Wikipedia over the coming months to ensure that no further information is lifted from my website without prior permission.

  • greedy, selfish.... Chochoto 16:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
    • No, a copyvio we should be aware of, and should have removed ourselves. Buckshot06 (talk) 08:57, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Human rights

How objective is it to talk about the human rights abuses of the armed forces? Is it prooved? (By European Human Rights Court for instance.) If there is such an abuse, it can be stated in the Human Rights in Turkey title.

  • PKK is a terrorist organization and our army don't have to show mercy to them. They may surrender or they may die. This is their choice. With respect, Deliogul 11:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
  • PKK is a political party which can't represent the 10,000,000 (and maybe more) Kurds in parliament of Turkey. John Skywalker 17:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
  • PKK is not a political party. PKK killed 4000+ security forces personnel and 26000+ civilian (mostly kurdish) in Turkey. None of political parties do this.
  • PKK is considered as a terrorist organization not only in Turkey but also worldwide. For example, it's in the list of European Union as a terrorist organization and United States and many other countries. Turkey will never discuss any issue with any terrorist organization.
  • If a terrorist organization names itself as "party" it does not cease to be terrorist. Besides, Turkey is a real democracy and there IS a legal party demanding some autonomy for Kurdish regions. They do not recieve 10,000,000 votes, in fact they were below the treshold to send any deputies to the parliament in elections.
  • You must be talking about DTP but still even if the DTP is a pro-Kurdish left-wing party(they got the %6 of the votes in 2002), they are not the same with PKK. PKK is a illegal terrorist organization which is also responsible for more than 30,000 murders. I don't like both of them but still you can't call PKK a party. They are just bloody murderers. With respect, Deliogul 20:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article too large

I have broken the article apart -- Cat chi? 12:29, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Seperatist groups

There had been quite a number of Seperatist groups in Turkey aside from the Kurds. TIKKO (Communist Party of Turkey's millitary wing I believe), ASALA (campaigns for parts of turkey to be merged with "great armenia"), Hezbollah, and many other groups exist. There are other groups too. -- Cat chi? 00:32, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Allright, thanks for the explanation. —Khoikhoi 00:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The Communist Party of Turkey (TKP) and Salvation Army of Workers and Villagers of Turkey (TIKKO) are totally different. TKP is an active political party which is of course legal. One more point is that only a small group among the Kurds of Turkey supports separatist organizations. 7 September 2006(UTC) 11:55 e104421
Look, I know I have been talking about this a lot but, please let's think about what we are going to write thoroughly before and let's keep things scientific... Especially u catout: Can you explain to me how TIKKO or Hizbullah would be considered a seperatist group??? They seek to change the regime in Turkey as a whole, not SEPERATE it.. You see what I mean??? There is a BIG difference.. They are considered in Turkey as terrorist groups, but not as seperatists... For ASALA, I see what you mean, but it has been dormant for twenty years now, so that's history... So the only ones left are Kurdish groups, AND NOT ONLY PKK BECAUSE THERE ARE MANY SPLINTER GROUPS THAT HAVE SEPERATED FROM THE PKK.. So there you go, I am taking it back to Kurdish groups... Baristarim 20:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
BTW, this has nothing to do with the fact that a big majority of the Kurdish people don't support these groups, that I know.. So don't worry about that... On the other hand, I really would like you to show me a seperatist group other than them.. Let's not beat around the bush, Turkey doesn't have other seperatist groups threathening its existence other than certain Kurdish groups... Come on, am I wrong??? :))) That's the difference between terör, bölücü terör and irtica. This is an enycylopedia people, so let's stick to the facts. But just to keep people happy, i am going to add something about leftist groups.. Cheers! Baristarim 21:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
TIKKO and Hizbullah are not seperatists. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.234.63.199 (talk) 13:12, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

I am not so sure where the personal attack is here? If I fail to see it I am sorry but perhaps you can delete what you find as the attack sentence rather than the contribution. Perhaps you can clarify. Thanks.

[edit] endorsement of the following changes=

I would like to point out that I find the following previously deleted additions worthwhile contributions and I think they should be left here. At least, I have not been blocked by anyone ever and these are my changes that I endorse and would like to see here. I hope all parties agree. Thanks.

[edit] your vandalism on the Turkish Armed Forces page

bertilvidet you reverted factual information edit and contribution with a "POV" disillusion on 10/15/06. Read carefully, they don't reflect POV. (Personal attack removed) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.130.210.78 (talk • contribs) 19:27, 15 October 2006.

Specifically, the following legitimate edits put in the article were vandalized and deleted by BertilVidet on 15 October 2006 and on 00:28, 18 October 2006 by Alphachimp: "The Turkish military, by the constitution and law, is given the duty of protection of the constitution and the unity of the country, and therefore plays a formal political role via the National Security Council in the same functional way that exists also in the USA and Israeli democracies, as the guardian of the secular, unitary nature of the republic and reforms of Atatürk in the Turkish example. The Chief of General Staff of the Turkish Armed Forces (TAF) since August 28, 2006 is General Yaşar Büyükanıt. The President, as the Head of State, is the Commander in Chief, in times of peace. The Chief of the General Staff becomes the Commander in Chief, on behalf of the President, in times of war. The TAF that has the unequivocal and unreserved support of the nation in its functionality past and present has traditionally been a powerful institution politically and has intervened directly in political affairs on several occasions. The role of the military in Turkish politics, mainly through the National Security Council, is declining (factual reference needed)."

[edit] To E104421

What was that mass blanking in aid of?--Euthymios 22:50, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I see you are not answering me but are continuing to revert (i.e. blank sourced information), and you have the audacity to demand of me to "use the talk page"?--Euthymios 23:17, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The information provided by Bagramyan is not related with the context of the article, but related with other wiki articles. I already pointed out in the edit summary. These would be more suitable. E104421 23:28, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry but I have to agree. The whole section was supported by the works of one author, and that is not enough to use sentences such as "TAF soldiers were stealing blankets". In any case, the correct form to use would have been "Robert Fisk has accused TAF soldiers of stealing blankets ...". What is wrong is the format used: We cannot use the claims of one author to convey an accusation as a 100 percent confirmed fact. Sorry but "sourced information" is not the magic cure, there is also something called "proper citation" and "correct use of sources". So if the section is made more contextual and sources are used correctly, then we can have a debate. In any case, please also remember that the current structural layout of the article doesn't permit the inclusion of such a section in context. So, if he is willing, Marshall should work on improving the structural layout and cleanup of the article first (no comments on if he would be willing to help improve the article of the Turkish Armed Forces, on a side note :))) Baristarim 01:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Robert Fisk is a very credible individual. I'm sorry if the material he reported sounds offensive, but he cites numerous American and British soldiers and officials to his credit. To claim otherwise means essentially that you are calling him a liar, the British embassy the American soldiers and British Marines liars who never challenged Fisk's account. If it is that troublesome if the structural context, I'll move it to its own separate article (and just wiki Main link it), but don't think that just because one journalist was there means he's biased or lying. But I agree, it seems more apt to put this in the Turkish Army article than here.--MarshallBagramyan 02:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
No need to jump the gun here. When there is one author cited the correct form should always be "Robert Fisk has accused the TAF of...". That's all I am saying: The claim of one individual cannot support a section where these claims are presented as being confirmed to 100 percent. This has nothing to do with the Turkish Army article, if the section does not include proper citation and nor uses its sources correctly, I will have to revert it there too. It doesn't matter if he is credible or not, what matters is that there is only one citation holding the whole section. And please avoid straw man, it was not a question of it sounding offensive. Baristarim 02:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
The same rules will apply if you create a different article, you cannot cite one author and give his statements as 100 percent confirmed facts, doesn't matter if it is a sub- or super- article. Baristarim 02:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 :) Who ever stated this imaginary one source mandate? Read many of Wikipedia's articles, FA included, and you'll see many of them are supported by single sources. To put "according to" implies opinion when Fisk, a journalist, simply reported what he saw. Its funny, do we ever apply such a beginning to an article written by the Associated Press or the Washington Post, that their journalists maybe saw a car bomb explode in Iraq or that maybe President Bush spoke to someone in an interview? Of course not. The citations have nothing to do with this as you well know, as the elder of Wikipedia will affirm.
The European Commission and journalists from other news services supported Fisk's account. I know how sensitive it is to criticize the Turkish military but you're stepping on the boundaries of commentator Lord Hawhaw here by setting up these imaginary rules. Wikipedia relies on verifiability, not truth. You cannot say that "according to Fisk, he saw Turkish troops" when its not just Fisk who saw this.--MarshallBagramyan 02:57, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
While Baristarim has a point on claiming that the addition seems disconnected from the rest of the article, his argument on sourcing isen't, given the current state of the article. Here is how the article starts: The first systematic Turkish Army was formed in 209 BC. The history of the Turks whose political order developed in line with their military order dates back approximately 2,215 years. This long history, which started in Central Asia, spread to all the major continents of the Old World as a result of great migrations. Turks of the Oghuz (Oğuz in Turkish) branch who established the Great Hun Empire in Eurasia and Göktürk Empire in the East also established the Seljuk Empire in the West, which played an important role in the encounter between the Turks and the European nations starting with the Battle of Manzikert (Malazgirt) in 1071 and the First Crusade in 1096. No source ever provided, even the Hun Empire being Turks as established fact, etc. Fad (ix) 03:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok Marshall, if he wasn't the only one, fine, then cite them, that's all I am saying. There is no imaginary rule here, you cannot use the claims of one author to give the impression that the claim is 100 percent confirmed fact particularly if the other side is opposing this version. And yes, AP or WP reporters can, and are, cited as "according to.. " if there is a dispute over the veracity of the claim. It has always been like this, even during the Lebanon bombings, the BBC would say "according to our reporter, there have been xx number of deaths", r u joking? :))) And Marshall, please avoid straw mans here, I am not stepping on no commentator here (or his boundaries :)), the question was not the criticism of TAF. The problem is the inclusion of the statement "TAF soldiers stole blankets", supported only by one author's claims and presented in the section as 100 percent proven fact, in the History section of the TAF. Surely you must see the un-encyclopedic traits present in this?Baristarim 03:09, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Fadix, two wrongs don't make a right. As I said, please avoid straw mans, instead of saying that I didn't have a point with my argument on sources, you should have said "Baristarim's argument on sources also holds true for the intro etc...", right? :))) I wasn't around when the article was written and I haven't made significant contributions to this article, so don't be blaming me for anything. There are Turkish editors who are working on this article at the moment, I will contact them with your concerns however. Baristarim 03:13, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

No I would have added more smileys if I was joking around. You know, the only reason Fisk was released from the Diyarbekir police station was that was because he invoked Kemal Ataturk in their conversation and what his apparent reaction would have been to Turkish soldiers' actions in Yasilova. The response by the Turkish government is present but its quite obvious why they opposed his version and why he was expelled out of Turkey soon after.--MarshallBagramyan 03:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Read the talkheader on top of the page please. How is how Fisk got released from Diyarbakir police station any relevant to the TAF article??? :))) Frankly, I don't care what TAF did, what Fisk did or said, what the TR govt said or did, this talk pages is for discussing improvements to this article. You still haven't said anything about the use of "according to.." even for AP and WP reporters. That's what is relevant to this article, please don't make this a forum on Turkey. Baristarim 03:20, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
It has something to do with Turkey's armed forces doesn't it? Somewhere along the lines of its history and/or participation in humanitarian effort. This conflict caused quite a ripple in 1991, British and American forces were almost certainly going to be involved in a shootout with the Turkish soldiers. I'm surprised you don't understand what the implications and magnitude and what that could have meant, to say nothing of why it even began.--MarshallBagramyan 03:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I am also surprised that you don't understand that the US and Turkey will never fight in the medium-term, and would have never fought in the last 60 years. Individual one-off incidents would have never dented the underlying alliance. That holds true even today. In any case, fantasy theories about what could have happened if US soldiers started shooting Turkish soldiers have no relation with this article, maybe a forum or a book, but not with this article. Please understand this. With all due respect, this is not a Tom Clancy book. Baristarim 03:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Original research of any kind is UNWELCOME anywhere on wikimedia hosted projects including wikinews.
Any article's talk page is to discuss that articles content and only that article's content. Talk pages are not a forum where you get to discuss your personal ideas and theories.
-- Cat chi? 14:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yasilova story

Please sort it out on the talk page.

IMHO the story should go into a separate article. While this might be important it is absolutely out of place as a separate section the main Turkish Armed Forces article. The same way as a long section on the Abu-Graib Incident does not belong to the main USA Army article. Alex Bakharev 06:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. If there are no objections I'll unprotect the page... Khoikhoi 03:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Concur... Baristarim 03:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Me too. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] dispute

The dispute is over the nonsense written about Greek Cypriots. It is POV and it has no essence of neutrality. I suggest you make it more neutral, since you don't allow anyone else to change it. Regards. User383739 22:42, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Turkish Armed Forces, Turkish Military

Two Artikels with the same subject.--85.105.213.115 16:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Turkish military redirects to this article.. :) Baristarim 19:11, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POW-issue

This article is very Turkey friendly. Much of the History-section reads like a praise to the Turkish military. --Merat 22:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Could you please give us a few examples from the text?

If you're referring to the Cyprus issue (like the Greek military junta or Nikos Sampson or EOKA-B or the Annan Plan for Cyprus, you can check them out from neutral resources (such as the U.S. Library of Congress) and see that there's nothing incorrect in the article's statements.)

The truth is often sour, though. Flavius Belisarius 23:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Flavius, please do not ask to 'leave it to Turks'. Thanks. This was for your recent edit's summary. DenizTC 00:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I meant:

"Leave it to people who served in the Turkish Army and know the history, structure, equipment and military doctrine of the Turkish Armed Forces better than you do."

I'm sure Hiberniantears can do miracles in improving the Irish Armed Forces article, but this one is probably beyond his knowledge and expertise.

I served the Turkish Army as a blue beret mountain commando at Eğirdir Dağ Komando Okulu ve Eğitim Merkezi Komutanlığı, by the way.

Regards. Flavius Belisarius 11:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Flavius Belisarius POV Edits

I'm slapping an POV tag on this article based on the recent edit history and comments made by Flavius. This editor is clearly writing from an entrenched point of view, and with little regard to the knowledge of fellow editors, has been ethnically dismissive. In addition, this editor is attempting to turn the article into little more than tribute to the glory of Turks. Whilst such glory may in fact be warranted, this is not the article for it. Hiberniantears 11:47, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

For violation of The Three Revert Rule, User:Flavius Belisarius has been warned accordingly. To avoid violating this rule myself, I will refrain from adding the NPOV tag to the page, or reverting the more recent edits from Flavius. I would appreciate if another user would add the NPOV tag back to the article in the mean time. Hiberniantears 12:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sockpuppet Anon Edits

I just find it interesting that as soon as both myself and Flavius hit the 3RR limit on this page today, two anonymous IP edits -both based in Italy- join the fray. I also find it interesting that both IP's are reverting in exactly the same manner as Flavius. As I have a sense of honor, I will refrain from responding in kind. Hiberniantears 18:03, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response to Hiberniantears

Hiberniantears, instead of deleting the article with "what you believe" is correct or incorrect, I suggest you to first show the parts (sentences, paragraphs or details) which you believe are factually incorrect, and let me make referenced explanations.

As a history buff, and a PhD in an Italian university who nevertheless did his obligatory military service as a blue beret mountain commando in the Turkish Armed Forces (and thus has a considerable amount of knowledge on issues regarding the TAF) I suggest you to write down the historic facts or details which you believe are incorrect before making any more arbitrary deletions.

I honestly don't think that you know Turkish history (in general) or Turkish military history better than I do.


Very few people in the world do, to tell the truth.

I am waiting for your response (please show in detail which parts you believe are factually incorrect).

Regards. Flavius Belisarius 08:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

  • To begin, each time you lose an argument, you simply pull another qualification out of the hat. First you are a former soldier in the Turkish Army. Next, when caught using anonymous Italian IP's to revert the article, you declare yourself a professor in based in Italy (but in no particular field). You have minimal credibility. To hide this, you have repeatedly denigrated my intelligence, my ethnicity, and my general ability to make logical edits to an article on a very cut and dry subject. Anyhow, addressing your issues... Very simple: the Republic of Turkey did not exist in 209 BC. The historical expanse of the Ottoman Empire has nothing to do with the modern Turkish Armed Forces. The history of peoples from which the people of modern day Republic of Turkey has nothing to do with the Turkish Armed Forces. The concept of Turks as brave, or born soldiers, has nothing to do with the Turkish Armed Forces. This article should begin in the 1920's, with the foundation of the modern Republic of Turkey, and the modern Turkish Armed Forces. Hiberniantears 11:40, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Listen dude, I never said "I'm a professional soldier", but "I served in the Turkish Army as a mountain commando" after graduating from university. Military service is obligatory in Turkey (every male Turkish citizen is obliged to serve in the Army). Right now I'm doing my PhD in Milan.

  • 209 BC exists on the badge of the Turkish Army (see for yourself, it's at the bottom of the badge), which itself describes this date as its founding year. It's not something I invented.
  • As for Turkish history, I'm far more qualified than you are. Who, do you think, edited all those admirals and added the naval history timeline, using Italian and Turkish marine archives?

As for the Turkish Armed Forces, as an "ex insider" who has served it, I also know many things better than you do in this area.

This is me during military service at Eğirdir Mountain Commando School by the way - the first day I wore my blue beret after finishing novice training:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b296/warsword/EgirdirDagKomandoOkulu.jpg

Regards. Flavius Belisarius 16:43, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Resolution of History Section

I have moved the disputed text in the history section to the Military history of Turkey article. In addition, I have added a link before the opening paragraph of the history section of this article which directs readers to Military history of Turkey. Please feel free to expand that article ad infinitum. Hiberniantears 13:19, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

"Disputed text"?

Disputed by whom?

Which fact/date in that text is inaccurate?

Flavius Belisarius 16:43, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

The text over which you and I are disputing should be in this article. I am not disputing accuracy. Out of respect to your good faith editing, I moved you material to Military history of Turkey, which links to this article. Hiberniantears 17:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] @ Hiberniantears

Hiberniantears, Turkey never ceased to exist. Turkey only changed its political system (was a Monarchy, became a Republic).

Turkey didn't change its flag.

Turkey payed for the Ottoman debts until the 1950s, being the only legal heir to the Ottoman Empire.

The Ottoman Empire was actually called "Turkey" if you read the texts of 19th century treaties such as the Paris Peace Conference (1856) or the Congress of Berlin (1878). Just look at the 19th century caricatures on Punch magazine and you'll see that Turkey was always "Turkey". ;)

With your definition, the Turkish Air Force can't be founded in 1909-1911 (which is its official founding date). 1911 predates the establishment of the Turkish Republic. Similarly, the official founding date of the Turkish Navy is 1081, which also predates the Turkish Republic.

In short, "Turkey was always Turkey" - it only changed its political system. The flag and the institutions remain the same, but the ideology has changed.

Regards. Flavius Belisarius 17:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

So, then, perhaps you could explain to me the precise year in which Turkey became Turkey, as a sovereign, Turkish state? Hiberniantears 17:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Circa 1369 in the English language :p

(Just kidding - you probably had enough of this for today, LOL) Flavius Belisarius 22:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Turkish Coast Guard Logo.jpg

Image:Turkish Coast Guard Logo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 05:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Kkbrove yeni.jpg

Image:Kkbrove yeni.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:20, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Opinion deleted

I deleted the following sentence, which is an opinion (and we don't know whose): "Considering that the TAF may increasingly participate in peace support operations during the first quarter of the 21st century, it is particularly important for the TAF to further develop its current capabilities in this field." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.123.56.121 (talk) 00:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)