Talk:Tung-shan

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[edit] Problems with date and name

According to this, Tung-shan Shou-ch'u lived 807-869. The problem is that Dumoulin 1994 (Dumoulin, Heinrich [1988] (1994). Zen Buddhism: A History; Volume 1, India and China; With a New Supplement on the Northern School of Chinese Zen (Trade paperback), Translated by James W. Heisig, Paul Knitter, Second (in English), New York, NY: Macmillan Reference USA, imprint of Simon & Schuster Macmillan, 387. ISBN 0-02-897109-4. ) says:

Tung-shan Shou-ch'u (d. 900) is the best known of Yun-men's disciples. Continuing his master's use of "one word barriers," he distinguished between "dead words" that contain rational intention and "living words" that are not bound by reason. His best-known short answer has been preserved in case 18 of the Mumonkan. To a monk who asks him, "What is the Buddha?", he replies: "Three pounds of flax."

From page 232. The problem is that this is obviously the same person as the Tung-shan this article is about, but the death dates and names are quite different. --Gwern (contribs) 23:25 21 January 2007 (GMT)

No, Tung-shan Liang-chieh and Tung-shan Shou-ch'u are two different people. See http://www.wwzc.org/translations/masterList.htm#D (they are referred to as "Dongshan Liangjie" and "Dongshan Shouchu", respectively).—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 23:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

But then which one is actually being referred to by the Mumonkan? --Gwern (contribs) 00:39 22 January 2007 (GMT)

Aha! I see what you mean. Good catch. It was Tung-shan Shou-ch'u[1]. I'll correct this article.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 00:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Great, good thing you can fix it. I find these guys to be awfully confusing - the differences between names are hard to intuitively feel and remember, and apparent mistakes and the varying Romanizations make it even worse on me. --Gwern (contribs) 03:00 22 January 2007 (GMT)