Talk:Tulku

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bhutan, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on Bhutan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the Project's quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
WikiProject Buddhism This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Buddhism, an attempt to promote better coordination, content distribution, and cross-referencing between pages dealing with Buddhism. Please participate by editing the article Tulku, or visit the project page for more details on the projects.
Start This article has been rated as Start-class on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

Article Grading:
The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.

Contents

[edit] From article

Personalities can be recognized as tulkus later in life: an example of this is actor Steven Seagal, an advocate for Tibetan Buddhist causes. Seagal was recognized as the reincarnation of a lama by Pema Norbu, but has never been trained or enthroned as a Buddhist teacher. [this was in main body of the article]

A Tulku is one who has activily CHOSEN their rebirth, rather than being at the mercy of ones own karma during the rebirth process like the rest of us.
There have been many examples of Western tulkus, but Steven Seagal is not one of them. He has never received a letter of confirmation nor been enthroned. A Tulku needs both.
Many powerful tulkus have had their rebirths disputed, but this usually clarifies with time as their personalities evolve.
An incarnate lama with the title TULKU, as opposed to the title RINPOCHE, is traditionally considered to be the lesser incarnation, although a humble person may insist on using the former. So traditionaly although every Rinpoche is a Tulku, not all Tulkus are Rinpoches. However these days many non-tulkus give themselves, or are appointed, the title Rinpoche hence a confusion between the traditional meaning of the word and the literal meaning today.
[this was below the see also]


So what about [[1]], then ? --219.110.235.188 12:07, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

what indeed?
Zero sharp 21:35, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
219.110. is rigth, that's what. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 05:34, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definition

The first sentence, which should be a definition, has gotten all messed up. I realise that the situation is complicated because tülku literally means nirmanakaya in Tibetan, but, in English, it almost always means a reincarnated lama. It certainly does not mean "an epithet used to refer to a high lama or other spiritually significant figure". We should lead with the English usage and explain nuance later on. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 05:34, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two points

I rewrote the section on ==Meaning==. There were a couple things I wanted to mention:

1) The author of the previous version seems to have a slightly different idea of why tülkus are called tülku than I have. However, I'm not an expert on these things, so maybe I'm wrong, in which case I will be happy to change it back. What is agreed upon is that tülku literally means something like avatar. However, the previous author believes that the implication is that the tülku is an avatar of some supernatural entity, such as Avalokita or Amitabha. On the other hand, I have reworded it to say that the tülku is an avatar (although I don't use the word avatar) of the first lama in the tülku lineage (although, in fact, many tülkus are also seen as manifestations of supernatural entities as well).

2) I also took out, "In this sense, the Tibetan use is hardly innovative: many Buddhist figures within the Mahayana tradition have been declared nirmanakayas, both inside and outside Tibet." I wouldn't find this shocking, but I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, so I removed it as an unsubstantiated claim. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 06:16, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Sirs,

In the Characteristics section you state:

"Lineages of tulkus may be interlinked—for example the Panchen Lama traditionally recognizes the new incarnation of the Dalai Lama and vice versa. In most cases there is no such relationship, but the potential candidate is always vetted by respected lamas."

I follow the Tibetan school, particularly the Gulupga lineage; that of the Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama. Your statement is not entirely true. The difference is a bit of semantics, but what you state is not entirely accurate. When the Panchen Lama passes, the Dalai Lama, as head of the Gulupga school, certainly recognizes the next Panchen Lama, and enthrones him. However, the reverse is not entirely true. When the Dalai Lama passes, the Panchen Lama certainly helps guide the Regents to find the next Dalai Lama, but it is the Regents that find, confirm and enthrone ("recognize") the Dalai Lama, not the Panchen Lama. You have to remember, the Panchen Lama is a secondary position to the Dalai Lama. Thus, he does not have the authority to "recognize" the next Dalai Lama. He is his student.

Take for example the current Dalai Lama. When the 13th passed, it was the Regents that went to the countryside and found the Tenzin Gyatso. As a boy, he was then taken to Lhasa for training and enthronement. The Panchen Lama at the time helped guide the Regents on where to find the boy lama, but he did not, from my understanding, have the authority to "recognize" (enthrone) him as the next Dalai Lama.

I really hope this helps. As I said, the difference is in the semantics. I also understand that most would not understand the difference. However, as a Free Encyclopedia, I thought it appropriate to notify of your oversight.

Thanks for listening.

A devoted follower of the Dharma...

[edit] reincarnations from noble families

I seem to remember some order by Qianlong(?) (in 1750 or 1757?) that ruled that henceforth reincarnations would no longer be found among the nobility. I am, however, not sure if this order applied only to Mongolia or also to Tibet. It would probably be useful to also discuss this topic within the article, as the selection of reincarnations from among the ruling families seems to have been rather common for a while. Yaan (talk) 13:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

This was in the aftermath of the Nepalese invasion and the concurrent Shamarpa/Panchen Lama affair, ca. 1792 (someone should make a movie about that—a great story). As far as I know, the restriction only applied to the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, however. The Karmapas up through the 16th were often from noble families outside of the Lhasa state.—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 17:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)