Talk:Tugay Bey

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[edit] G or H problem

I wondering if "Tugay Bey is proper name for this person. He was a Tatar,~that used Tatar language. I supose that Russian transcription changed orginal Tatar "h" into "g" (like Hitler to "Gitler"). I supose that "Tuhay" would be much closer to orginal, and will be less misunderstanding for most people worldwide that don't know about this "g->h rule". Or maby someone can find orginal Tatar/Turkish name of this man? Radomil talk 15:32, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I wrote this article in big haste, just to fill the gap. Nevertheless, for the name I did a quick google search for variants of the name and saw that in Turkish language the name is Tugay. (actually, there are live people called Tugay Bey, since I've seen (in google search summaries) "Tugay bey merhaba" which means "Hello Tugay bey") Tuhay is absent and used only as an acronym. Association of Detainees' and Prisoners' Families for Solidarity and Culture (TUHAY-DER).

I guess the same is for Tatar, since google does not have an option of Tatar language search. mikka (t) 00:18, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

BTW, you do have some grounds in your suspicions: Hassan may go to Gasan or Khasan in Russian. mikka (t) 00:25, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Polish Tuhaj IMO is because the name went through Ukrainian. mikka (t) 00:28, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Anyway, what was his name at these times, and, btw, in Crimean Tatar language of these times, not in Tatar language (of today), is of course an interesting question, but looks like we will have to wait intil a true expert stumbles upon our article. 00:34, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I asked because I found one (and uncertain IMO) Polish text in which was mentioned that in Tatar his name was pronounced as Tohaj. Radomil talk 11:36, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I also asked for help on Tatar Wikipedia Radomil talk 14:41, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I'm asking on your request at tt:Wikipedia:Bäxäslek. It's quite difficult to answer your question, due some problems appear:

1. Tugay bey was one of Crimean Tatars, that speak language, similar to Tatar language, but it's differ. I don't know Crimean orthography, so I can't answer correct.
2. Ukrainian h is corresponding to Tatar ğ, but doesn't correspond to the same in Turkish. So, Turks may use g (also if they have some tradition to write this name such), while in Tatar it needs to be written ğ.

   You may be right but again, he was Crimean Tatar, not Tatarstan Tatar. Not to say that Tirkish also has this voiced velar fricative. And both of them have voiceless velar fricative, denoted by "h": "Ahmed". So in any case "g" is better than "h" for these languages for this sound. mikka (t) 17:15, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I know that he was a Crimean Tatar. Crimean is more close to Turkish than to Tatar, but as for phonetic, ğ is corresponding to voised fricative (Ukrainian h (г)), which is also could be found in Volga Tatar too. But Turkish ğ could be pronounced variously. And this sound shoudn't be confused with h. Crimean and Turkish h (Ahmed) corresponds to Russian х, but Tatarstan Tatar contains 2 consonates: h (Allah) and x (Axmad), less and more "stronger" than in Russian. So, I think that Crimean h couldn't be scribed by Poles as h, becose it came across Ukrainian. But it's mine opinion, you should verity it at hansaray.or.ua

As for Tohaj, It could originate from Kazan pronounciation, where o is corresponding to Crimean u. --Untifler 18:56, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

1. You may ask some of this questions at the official site of Bagcasaray museum. It's regulated by Crimean Tatars.

As for another question about Tatars, you may ask, I hope I can be useful :) --83.69.98.127 16:36, 29 November 2005 (UTC) User:Untifler

In Crimean Tatar his name is spelled Toğaybey (or sometimes Toğay bey). Crimean ğ is pronounced as Azeri or Tatar ğ. Maybe it should be moved to Toğaybey? Don Alessandro 21:39, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

If You're sure of this spelling move it :) Radomil talk 22:20, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Modern Crimean Tatar language irrelevant. It is a historical figure known mostly as Tugay Bey. The previous move to supposedly "original" Crimean Tatar spelling is wrong. Show me an original document from these times, and we shall talk. The move reverted. `'mikka 02:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Original document? There are original documents, but the problem is that they are written in Arabic alphabet (which was used by Crimean Tatars until 1928). E.g. in the epic poem of the 18-th century author Can Muhammed he is called طوغاي بگ - literally twġāy bg. In modern Crimean Tatar latin orthography this is Toğay Bey.

That's exactly the point. The origin is in Arabic, and this is English encyclopedia, which doesnt have 'ğ'. `'mikka 00:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

But we have here Köprülü Fazıl Ahmed for exaple and a lot of other Ottomans with there names spelled in modern Turkish orthography in spite of the fact that they all used Arabic script. Why should we use a kind of a transliteration for the language that has a latin orthography of its own? BTW, if you want to translitereate طوغاي into English properly - it will be Toghay or Tughay. غ is transliterated as gh. Don Alessandro 06:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

BTW, there is no wide spread tradition of writing this name in English. See Google for example. Only several sites, almost all mirrors of the wiki. Don Alessandro 19:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The same about "Togay". `'mikka 00:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Tere is no any tradition of writing this name in English. That is why it is better to use original spelling and not to invent spellings of our own. Don Alessandro 06:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no "original spelling" in latin alphabet. If you claim it exists, please provide a reference. As I see, there are, eg., Tugay Kerimoğlu, Tugay Kerimoğlu vs. Khawand Toghay, Baidukhan ebne Toghay ebne Hulegu. `'mikka 23:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)