Talk:Tsundere

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[edit] Neologisms?

In my 10 years of anime fandom, I've never seen this term before. I wonder if it is really that widespread or if it is just neologism and this article AfD as such. --TheFarix (Talk) 12:06, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

A Google search only found 215 uses in English. Most definitely neologism. --TheFarix (Talk) 12:25, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, this word is technically a neologism, since it is new (having come from computer games as I sort of understood from the Japanese wiki) and while this word is not so popular in English, this article is really an explanation of a Japanese word. ツンデレ turns up over 2 million hits in Google, and Akamatsu uses tsundere in the External Link (where tsundere is described as originally slang, implying that it no longer is), so I think this is sufficient to pass the Corpus Linguistics test. -- Pyo 18:11, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that is enough to include it in the English wiki. While the word may be in common Japanese useage, it is English useage that is at concern here. And frankly, the evidence is not there that the term is in frequent used among anime fandom, as the article suggests. If you merely wish to provide a definition for a Japanese term, the Wiktionary would probably be a better place. --TheFarix (Talk) 23:36, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I think we agree that tsundere is in common use in japanese, but not english. I would say this means that this article does not qualify for deletion as a neologism, since it's not so much about a new english word tsundere, but the well-established concept of ツンデレ.
The next question then is whether this article qualifies for deletion as a dictionary entry (dicdef I guess it's called). Tsundere seems like an interesting enough concept that it might become a decent article someday, so I would say 'stub' rather than 'dicdef'. --Pyo 01:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
For the most part, I still think that this is neologism. Even though the word is used frequently by the Japanese, it still very rarely used by English speakers and this is the English Wikipedia. Still, I'm going to just tag this for {{cleanup-rewrite}}. If that doesn't happen, I will later nominate this for AfD as either neologism or dictionary definition. --TheFarix (Talk) 13:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I second that. It is a relatively new term, even for the Japanese. However the term is gaining popularity in the anime industry, fast. -no name 11:27, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
  • It's a Japanese loanword, so it won't come up in a google search as Japanese uses another alphabet. As of writing it has 45,400 hits on Google and 1.6 million hits in Japanese (ツンデレ). It is, to be fair, a foreign loanword only used in English by anime fans, as with moe, and the word itself is fairly recent to the Japanese language itself. --Jonathan Drain 01:54, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Food for thought: "tsundere" has pretty much exploded in popularity on certain parts of the Internet (AnimeSuki forums for sure, I haven't been to other forums enough lately). Even though it's only since the last month or so, people have started using it quite easily. I wonder if one can still call it neologism now. Commander Nemet 04:18, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Going by the definition of neologism, I'd say that'll be possible for years :) "Blogging" is still a neologism. --AlexChurchill 02:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

At the end of the day, considering the rising usage of the word, I don't see any good reason for recommending deletion of what many would consider useful information. As it spreads among message boards (and it certainly appears to be spreading), more people will be using this article seeking an explanation, and questions about its necessity will work out naturally.--Ershin 09:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I seen "tsundere" used in Newtype USA, most recently in the Sept 06 issue. -Anon, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the article should be deleted, as it was my first non-Japanese resource on the term, which I came in contact with through a MIXI group - http://mixi.jp/view_community.pl?id=919436 . I think the term will gain popularity here as well and so I hope this article will be maintained. I was disappointed with the fact that most of the Tsundere characters referenced were female, even though most of the tsundere characters on the Japanese website I listed are male. Anyway, hope the article stays and continues to be maintained! ~akizakura, October 2006

I don't really understand why anyone wants it to be deleted, anyway. It's obviously been of use to some people. What, is there not room for it? --74.75.145.125 04:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Leia, Kong Deletion

Why delete? It's been many years since I've seen a King Kong movie, but Leia seems to qualify as a tsunderekko, and I like having non-anime examples. Revert? --Pyo 04:00, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Bit of an issue of OR there. --Gwern (contribs) 12:36 3 August 2007 (GMT)

[edit] Bah so that's it

I have been searching for this term for ages. I knew it existed but couldn't find any info on it. --Squilibob 09:47, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Whereas I came across it today in an anime blog, and thought "Wikipedia is usually good for Japanese terms that are making their way into English - let's go check there", and I wasn't disappointed. Incidentally, the Google hits are up to 40k already. --AlexChurchill 02:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
It's used on anime blogs a lot these days. I think the article could use a bit of adjustment.. it says the term originated with renai games, however not examples are given. Some of the anime listed, however, were based on games. I guess Mai from the Popotan game probably counts as Tsundere, but I don't have much experience of renai games. Shiroi Hane 13:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Tsunderekko - Youthful person with Tsundere personality?

My japanese knowledge is near nonexistant, but doesn't the -(k)ko suffix generally indicate female gender? See Meganekko. And so far all tsunderekko uses I've seen in the anime blogging community refered to girls.--87.160.231.244 20:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I was being vague about it because I don't know what it is. I haven't actually seen tsunderekko written out in kanji anywhere, so I can't say exactly what the meaning is. --Pyo 11:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citing Wikis

As I understand the guideline, they are talking about citing within the same-language wiki, since one unsourced article is as reliable as another unsourced article. For an article like this, the japanese wiki is more authoritative than the english wiki. There is even a reference style for foreign wikis. It is true that it is still not a proper primary source, but until someone finds a better source, the reader is better off knowing where the information came from. --Pyo 16:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I've asked on the relevant talk page (here), but in this case I think it won't matter what the result is, as the Japanese article appears unsourced and the link to the Japanese article is in the article anyway. —Philip N.✉ 19:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List?

I think the long list is difficult to maintain, unnecessary, and will never be exhaustive. I don't think it adds much to the article (though I can understand the article linking to a category or tsundere characters). Anyone else think it should be removed? At least it will be a honey pot for the "me too" edits that are popular... 69.114.71.250 11:28, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Problem with a category is that subjective categories are often deleted in favour of lists. I'd ditch the list entirely myself, and replace it with an Examples section that listed 2-3 of the definitive characters, in prose with explanatory text. It would be bordered top and bottom by hidden comments saying "Do not add additional characters to this sections. It is intended to give a brief set of examples only, not function as a list of tsundere figures." to help safeguard against expansion. --tjstrf talk 11:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I am in favor of tjstrf's suggestion since I believe it would be a good direction for this article to go in. I have made the alteration on the yandere article, if in need of a reference.--(十八|talk) 03:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
If no one has any objections to it, I will be making the change within the next few hours.--(十八|talk) 21:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Alright, I have done it. If anyone objects, you can discuss it here.--(十八|talk) 00:03, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Haruhi Suzumiya

Okay, this is to discuss the recent edit conflicts related to Haruhi Suzumiya being in the list of examples. Whether it may or may not be a debate in the anime community shouldn't matter as long as Haruhi carries the traits likened to all tsunderekko; that is going from tsuntsun to deredere, which (if only the anime is used as a reference) happens in episodes 4, 9 (especially at the end of 9), and 14. Not to mention that right now Haruhi is a huge topic in the anime community, so I believe she warrents inclusion as an example in this article.--(十八) 07:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that she should be included. I've seen the anime (I haven't read the manga nor the novels, so it might be different as crilix mentioned) and Suzumiya Haruhi definately fits the definition of "tsundere". I do think the "transformation" occurs often enough and appears to be important enough to her character for it to be considered a personality trait, at least in the anime, IMHO. --AlexJohnc3 (talk) 01:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Episode 12 counts too IMO. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 150.101.121.216 (talk) 12:49, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

Tsundere and yandere fall under the category of gyappu moe, also known as gap moe. The term labels any kind of moe-inspiring personality which crosses from one extreme behaviour to another. Haruhi Suzumiya's tsuntsun to deredere transformations are so rare in the anime that they can easily be dismissed as abnormalities. Even in the novels, she rarely switches from one personality extreme to the other. Her attempts to date Kyon later in the novels are without a doubt proof that she is a girl with needs that can be considered as moé, however, her transformations can still fall in the error margin. The english anime community disagrees on the error margin; some argue only one such instance of going from tsuntsun to deredere is enough, some argue such a small number of these instances is just not enough for it to be called a tsundere personality. While Haruhi Suzumiya does display tsundere behaviour qualities on a few occasions, the occurrence of those just isn't frequent enough for them to be personality traits. The article is also in need of character representatives who express tsundere behaviour more frequently, for example Louise from Zero no Tsukaima. Haruhi Suzumiya is an anime character with strong recognition among the english anime community, and because of that she represents a hazzard to the correct usage of the term tsundere; people without prior knowledge about tsundere could easily mistake the term as a synonym for "spikey", "dismissive", or "cranky" if they were to reference it to Haruhi Suzumiya. --(crilix) 10:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so I'm late.. but thought I would mention that the official fan book has a tsun/dere graph for each episode Shiroi Hane 19:46, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
With Haruhi, it's not so much the transition, but the existence of a second, inner Haruhi that is dere. Though I think Kyon is the only one who sees it. Izuko 19:32, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru

There is a character named Takako Itsukushima that is deplicted in the series as the prime example of a tsundere. In fact, episode 13 of the series plays a joke with her as a tsundure/Cinderella-type, thus calling the episode 'Tsunderella.' May she be included as an example? ----Stahlwolf 05:34, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I would really not want to go through this again. The point of condensing it into a small section was so that the list (as it once was) wouldn't get out of hand (like it actually did). The tsunderes given in the Examples section are some of the more well-known tsunderekko characters, and it should stay that way. If Takako was included, then that would incite other editors to include others as well. I've let it slid by addeding Louise, though this is due to her connection with Shana. Similarly, Naru from Love Hina and Eri from School Rumble seem to be very well known examples; Takako just isn't notable enough I'm afraid.--十八 07:31, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree that Takako is an excellent example of a tsundere, and one of my favorites. Alas, though, citing her would be of little or no value, considering anyone who has seen the series probably already knows what the term means. Izuko 19:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Asuka???

You're kidding me. Asuka? She's got the tsun down, but there ain't a drop of dere in her. Izuko 02:05, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, no one can deny the tsun, but isn't the dere obvious too? Asuka's a troubled needy kid, as like half the scenes with either Kaji or Shinji take lengthy pains to convince us. Not to mention her in-the-head scenes in any of the versions of episode 25 and 26. --Gwern (contribs) 11:51 14 June 2007 (GMT)
Troubled and needy do not tsundere make. What you need is a hard outside, and a soft-gooey center. Asuka has a hard outside, and a shattered, scrambled, basket-case of a center. Not the same. Izuko 23:37, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I would have to agree with Gwern. If you ask an anime fan, most (if not all) will say that she is the classic tsundere.--十 八 00:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I've been an anime fan since before Eva was only available in fansubs. There is no way I, or any I know, consider Asuka to be Tsundere. I don't know where you're getting your presumed consensus. Izuko 12:11, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Quite a few of these links would disagree with you. Perhaps the term of tsundere really has evolved as this article states, because many still do believe her to be tsundere.--十 八 12:20, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
The number of people agreeing on this subject shouldn't matter because there is only one correct definition of this term. However, the issue we're arguing is now a subject of evolution vs. misuse. I will demonstrate this with a quote from Shiraishi Minoru, an anime character from an otaku-industry-driven comedy anime TV show Lucky Star (manga). Shiraishi Minori negates labeling Kagami Hiiragi (one of the heroines from Lucky Star) as tsundere and later asks the fans of the show if they could send in mail with a new idea on how to call Kagami Hiiragi's character-type (quote taken from a.f.k.'s Lucky Star 10 fansub; added notes):

"The classification of Kagami Hiiragi as a tsundere is a bit hasty. First, do we comprehend the true meaning of the qualities of a tsundere? No, unfortunately the word tsundere has suffered misuse and decay and one could say that the definition has evolved. To begin with, the word tsundere was born in the year 2002, an Internet term, but the original definition was a character who starts off hostile (tsun tsun) and eventually becomes affectionate (dere dere). In other words, it was supposed to describe a change over time! And now it is used to describe the multiple faces of a character. In other words, hostile (tsun tsun) on the outside and affectionate (dere dere) on the inside would be how the word is currently understood. I declare here! This is plainly a mistake! We must bring back the true meaning of tsundere and restore this depraved nation!" (note: this last sentence is said in such a tone because it is meant as a gag on one of Japanese controversial political TV broadcasts by Toyama Kouichi)

I take this quote as a legit source because it comes from a show that discusses the otaku industry and fanhood in Japan. What we learn from it is that, similar to the western situation, Japanese anime fans have a disagreement on the correct usage of this term. If we go by the original meaning, characters Souryuu Asuka Langley, Suzumiya Haruhi and Sawachika Eri fall out of the tsundere category. Tousaka Rin, Shana and Zero no Tsukaima (to some degree) are fine examples of the original definition. However, if we acknowledge the fact that many anime fans are misusing the term and that they do not have a different definition ready for the characters that aren't original tsundere, so it was easier to just evolve the word by mass usage, the definition might as well cover them all, and many other characters that are, in fact, not original tsundere.--crilix (2007/07/24/ 15:02 GMT)
Okay, I'll be willing to compromise with you. If we were to add a more in depth-description of this evolution and misuse of the term to the lead paragraph, and then split the examples section into the classic definition, and the new definition, with examples of prominent characters in each, then I'd be fine with that.--十 八 14:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Wow. I just watched that episode and was coming here to discuss it. This seems like a fairly solid source; I think we should insert the identified date (2002) of origin and place (the Internet; it seems to me to insinuate 2ch as the place, but I may just be reading that into it), and I'd personally like to add the description - both of them - just so the reader understands from the source that we're quoting that it's an influential enough classification to receive several minutes of discussion in a popular anime, and also that the meaning is in flux (hence the confusion of the article in general). --Gwern (contribs) 12:49 3 August 2007 (GMT)
When you, 18, say, "The number of people agreeing on this subject shouldn't matter because there is only one correct definition of this term," you are directly contradicting modern descriptive linguistics. All current linguists -- under whom I have studied, though I do not claim to be one -- in their right mind concur that, at least to some extent, the usage of any element of language is determined by the consensus of its speakers. In other words, a particular term has whatever meaning a substantial majority of its users ascribe to it. Even in the study of Latin, one of the most prescriptive fields in all the humanities, professors agree that it is a word's common usage, and not its ultimate origin, which determine its true meaning. That's why, when we anime-types call each other "geeks", we're not suggesting that we have ever bitten the heads off small animals: the majority of people who use the term intend it to mean "a peculiar or otherwise dislikable person, especially one who is perceived to be overly intellectual". Likewise, the meaning of "tsundere" is determined by what its users intend it to mean. Tsunomaru 14:05, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
You may want to read the links you cite. You may find they not only fail to support your point, but that many argue against your position. Simply showing that links exist with both Asuka and tusndere means nothing. Nor do I agree the the definition has really drifted. Me thinks you are misusing the term. Izuko 01:09, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, so now I'm not reading the links I'm citing?

Pro-Tsundere Asuka

So please, try not to accuse me of not reading these links. As you can see, there are just as many people who think she is tsundere as there may be that think she is not, thus the community is divided. And even if I am misusing the term, what's it really matter if a large amount of the rest of the anime community misuses it along with me? Minoru was right; the term has evolved and people do misuse it today from it's original definination, but that's what language and community is all about. Language and definitions change over time, and if you don't believe me, then just takes the word "gay" for one which means something totally different now than how it was used even 50 years ago.--十 八 10:43, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I have to apologize, I was a bit hasty with my earlier response. When I said "However, if we acknowledge the fact that many anime fans are misusing the term [...] the definition might as well cover them all," I forgot to say that I would never consider Asuka to be tsundere, even in the misused definition of the term, because, and I agree with Izuko here, she doesn't have a soft-gooey personality on the inside, or anything with a "dere dere" sound to it. She does not deserve to be mentioned in this article.
In any case, I personally believe you're trying to bargain your way out of the mess that is this article and your misguided understanding of this term. Being a senior editor of this article does not put you in a position where you would decide what of the presented is correct and what is not. Also, the webpages you cite pose more like public opinion polls and not actual sources or studies of Internet slang. As for your statement, "And even if I am misusing the term, what's it really matter if a large amount of the rest of the anime community misuses it along with me?", I believe your approach to this is misguided. This is what I was trying to say earlier: You mustn't mistake misuse for evolution. From my experience, there is still a strong part of the Japanese community that sticks to the original definition. And without a doubt, Shiraishi Minoru's rant contributed to strengthening the original definition. I would rather not include the English part of the anime fan community into this discussion, because this is still a Japanese word. I think the current article should be rewriten closer to the original definition of the term, but I would mention the evolution vs. misuse issue. If I still haven't convinced you, I propose you start a new study (not an opinion poll) on tsundere on forums with hardcore anime fans. Those would be the AnimeOnDVD, AnimeSuki and AnimeNewsNetwork forums. Present them the points discussed here, our dilemma and try to work out a solution. I regularly visit the AnimeOnDVD and AnimeSuki forums and I'm sure they have a few very knowledgable fans there that aren't just driven by Internet hype. crilix (2007/07/26/ 18:02 GMT)
So, somehow you thought those were references? As has been pointed out, message boards really don't tell much. Hell, a few even referenced wikipedia for their definition. So citing them is a bit incestuous. Izuko 02:24, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Until we get this resolved, I have removed all the examples that are disputed in this argument. crilix (2007/07/27/ 11:05 GMT)

The point of those websites was precisely to show popular public opinion of Asuka, not necessarily "studies" of Internet slang because that's not what I was attempting to prove to you. What I was doing was showing you that there are a good amount of people that believe Asuka is tsundere, and nothing you say can deny that fact; the opinions are there, just as I have given you examples of them. We're talking about internet slang here; this is something that will never get an accurate study or serious look by anyone; it's just a fun little classification that anime fans give certain characters to lump them into a much more broader category. And as far as I know, there is no "correct" use of this term. People use it as they like, and as we have shown, many people have varying definitions as to what a tsundere means. Does this mean there is one singular "correct" defination? No, or else we wouldn't be debating here. I could just as easily throw out Minoru's rant on the basis that it came from an anime geared towards otaku, which isn't exactly a "study" as you have said yourself, and could be little more than fabrication nonsense that the staff thought up; the point is, we really do not know, and since the definition has evolved over the years, it would be futile to find the "original" definition of it anyway. This is why I wanted a compromise with you for two sections: one with the old definition and one with the new so we could both be happy, but you seem hotly against even having any character that is considered tsundere under the new definition even though that is what most people in the anime community today connect with! So I'll just give myself a facepalm at this debate and let you have your way.--十 八 12:35, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
And throw a fit about it on the way out, it seems. Izuko 18:25, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Izuko, I just facepalmed TWICE while reading through this. Perhaps you have heard of the phrase, "Arguing on the Internet is like running in the Special Olympics: Even if you win, you're still retarded." Bluntly put, but true. You've succeeded in "winning" your argument, but I fail to see what you've gained here. Granted, Asuka's dere aspect wasn't quite a perfect definition, based on popular opinion, she is viewed as a tsundere character. Popular opinion is not fact, but for all except the most diehard fanatics, opinions in the anime/manga world are to be taken to be based on an inkling of truth. If you are so adamant in your opinion that you feel the need to flaunt your ideas here, be my guest. I'm just saying that you appear a tad foolish. Goldy496 (talk) 23:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Definition?

I thought the word Tsundere simply refers to a person who is not sincere with his/her feelings (e.g. not admitting love). Now I'm not totally familiar with this topic, but I've seen it used in some cases where the "combative" part totally doesn't apply, such as when referring to Kagami in Lucky Star. Can somebody clarify? --Mizst 17:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The term has a wide range of definitions. Kagami can be considered a tsundere character because of her tsukkomi personality.--十八 20:48, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh .. now I have two questions -_-' First, how does a tsukkomi character be related to being tsundere? It seems to me quite unrelated. And second, if tsundere has a wide range of meaning, then the article should either refer to the most general (i.e. widest) sense, or it should be written in such a way that is indicative of all the possible usage. The article as it is now is rather narrow in scope (combative-loving only) and all examples in there are violent characters. Also I would like to note that the word bases (both tsuntsun and deredere) don't seem to have a violent meaning. Unfortunately, I do not have the expertise required to rewrite the article. --Mizst 03:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The article does give the most general definition; it may seem narrow, but that is what a tsundere is in the end. It's a little difficult to shove Kagami under the general definition, because as you said, it doesn't really fit her. So I brought up the fact that she is a tsukkomi type character who will point out the shortcomings of Tsukasa or Konata a lot, which gives her a sort of "combative" edge. Then later on, she may be more understanding of Konata's interests, or of Tsukasa's personality, which gives her more of the "loving" edge; thus, tsundere in the fans' eyes. And as for broadening the scope, that would probably bring up a lot of original research, so we can't really stray too far from the accepted definition.--十八 03:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I see. Thanks a lot for the explanation. --Mizst 09:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What?

"Other examples include Akane Tendo from Ranma ½, who is initially (and through much of the series) very antagonistic towards Ranma Saotome, and Sakura Haruno from Naruto who is initially antagonistic towards Naruto Uzumaki. Both girls are frustrated, thinking them both perverts who change their genders a lot, but both grow to appreciate their strength and courage." So Naruto is a frequent sex changer as well as a pervert? Sure, why not. --SDBR39952 (Talk)

[edit] Re: Prod

I am against the deletion of either tsundere or yandere as they are relatively important terms found in Category:Anime and manga terminology, and might I add, are some of the few that are actually referenced. Even if the references do come from blogs, tsundere is found in a vast amount of anime/manga series, and while yandere is found not as much, it has gained notability in the past few years based on the recent developments of such characters, which can be viewed in that article. I would recommend that if you want to continue with the proposed deletion, list the articles at WP:AFD so we can start an overall discussion on the issue on an appropriate sub-page, because currently I do not believe there would be enough discussion in just five days time if the templates were kept.--十八 01:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Submission of relative search comparison between the two terms using Google fight. KyuuA4 16:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Instead of Examples

Here's a question. Fictional characters, especially character types, are inspired by real world examples, particularly human behavior. For example, the tragic hero. There exists many people who are noble in status - yet - their behavior or position ultimately leads them to their down fall. Like Princess Diana.

So, where is did tsundere come from? If I were to guess, it's pertaining to the behavior of Japanese girls being initially harsh towards male "suitors" but they ultimately change their minds. KyuuA4 19:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Male examples

Well, this term is certainly not limited to the female characters. Therefore, it'll be best to provide 1-2 examples of male tsundere. KyuuA4 (talk) 17:12, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Small rin.JPG

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