Talk:Truman State University

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Content from the old page [Ryle Hall], now archived at Talk:Truman State University/Ryle Hall, has been used on this page.

This comment from [Talk:Ryle Hall] is being moved here: This page was voted on for deletion at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Ryle Hall. I'm about to merge it to Truman State University. dbenbenn | talk 23:22, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Truman owns the 150.243.*.* addresses, in case anyone is curious looking at the page history.

Contents

[edit] Motto for the university

I have no idea what the real motto of Truman is, but the Excellence is No Accident is just a bumper sticker slogan. I can't seem to make the infobox get rid of the motto placeholder, so i put the slogan in it.


That's what I figured out after scouring the University web page and finding nothing related to motto. I had no luck with removing the motto field in the infobox either; it must be a global fixation. Perhaps someone could check with the President or VPAA to see if there is in fact a motto at all. --Iosif 19:19, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] MIT of 63!?

That's the first I heard of that. However, that better fits UMR since Truman isn't an engineering school. --KHill-LTown 22:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I have also heard the phrase "Cornell of the Cornfields." Xadnder 03:32, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Vandalism

Any future rash of vandalism to this page will result in a request that anonymous IPs not be allowed to edit this article. If you want to make constructive edits, feel free to create a user name. --KHill-LTown 23:54, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merger proposals

I'm proposing merging Pickler Memorial Library and Kirk Memorial. Both are stubby articles on university buildings. The library article appears longer b/c the creator apparently dumped statistics from another source into the page. If I don't hear any comment in a week or so, I'll just merge them.

I'd also like to merge Bulldog Party, but I won't do that without input. I think the whole article could be significantly shortened and merged into the university's. In any case, as noted in the Bulldog Party article itself, there's at least one other party at Truman, meaning it's POV to keep this page without having one for the other party. --Chaser (T) 02:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree with merging the buildings, but I'd rather keep the political parties separate from the university article. Right now, the Bulldogs are the pre-eminent party, and claimed to have inspired other university political parties in the state. However, there has been a second-party void in the past couple of years, which the new Student Coalition hopes to fill. --KHill-LTown 03:51, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with merging the Bulldog Party article with the Truman article. The Bulldog Party is a unique organization that exists on the Truman campus that has indeed inspired the formation of like organizations in Missouri. It was also the driving force behind the formation of the Student Association of Missouri. Without the Bulldog Party there quite literally would have been no Student Association of Missouri or Bearcat Voice at Northwest Missouri State University. Such influence is noteworthy enough to consitute an independent article. BCV 15:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I vote merge on all except the Bulldog Party. ~Linuxerist A/C/E/P/S/T/Z 18:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
My first instinct was to merge all of them, but upon review of the Bulldog party page, there's a lot of stuff there to merge. So - shrug - Let them have their own page for now. --Spin2cool 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Consensus is clear; I'll merge the buildings. Thanks everyone. --Chaser (T) 08:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greek Listing

If all greek organizations are going to be listed, shouldn't all student organizations be listed, including honor and service fraternities, departmental societies, intercultural groups, etc, etc? (many of which have wikipedia pages too). I'm estimating there are 100+ of these. (see: http://studentinvolvement.truman.edu/studentorgs.php) My concern is balancing the need for fairness with the need to keep the article from becoming horrendously long and unwieldy. Any thoughts? --Spin2cool

It seems bizarre to me to even include them by name. I'd favor just talking about the Greek community and other student organizations more generally and linking to the URL you provided so people can get more info if they really want to know if a specific greek org has a chapter at Truman. They were added by an IP [1], so I doubt anyone will defend them. How about making specific mention of APO, the largest organization on campus, and the big 4 frats? (There were four, right?) I don't know which sororities would be notable. The debate team, various media orgs, athletics, and the Bulldog Party already are mentioned (the last having its own page). Perhaps Student Senate itself should have a section as well.--Chaser T 05:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't like the big 4 idea, as it slights the others. How about a blurb about having X number of fraternities and sororities? Then we can add a mention of having a variety of other organizations like service, honor, intercultural, etc, etc. Add a link to the student orgs page, and we're done. Any objections? Spin2cool 03:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Support That sounds fine to me. I suppose listing any organizations by name leads to creeping inclusion of all of them.--Chaser T 01:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Disagree In order to see the listing of the fraternities or sororities, a user has to click through three pages just to find a list. Other universities in the state (University of Missouri- St. Louis, also Missouri State) also have listings.It's much easier to have it listed on the Truman's wikipedia site. Furthermore, it's relevent to the article because, as it says, nearly 20% of the campus is Greek. And as far as listing all other organizations, that's not a terrible idea, but whether or not there's a college Republicans or Democrats on campus isn't really anything worth noting, as these are on most every college campus. I'm a newbie to wikipedia, as a registered user at least, so I think this'll post right...--Md09
It needs to be noted that there are 250 organizations on Truman's campus. Listing them all would encumber the page. I have suggested a separate page that delineates organizations, but I've been told that such pages are not worthy. Since the Greek listings link to the national entry (as in the only entry that should be on Wikipedia), why not just run Greek initials side by side (ΑΓΔ-ΑΣΑ-ΔΖ etc. etc.), which would take up less space? --KHill-LTown 21:43, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


MD09, If you'd like to go by numbers, then why wouldn't we list huge organizations like APO or CCF, and leave off small frats like the TKEs? I don't feel like giving favored placement to one specific type of organization is fair to the rest.
Perhaps we can include a link to this page, which lists all the frats and sororities: http://greeklife.truman.edu/ Then your concerns about being several clicks away will be assuaged. --Spin2cool
Spin2cool, I'm not suggesting that the smaller fraternities be excluded, as indeed that seems unfair. As to your statement about "favored placement", is there a reason why the debate team has its own section? Md09
The debate team repeatedly ranks at national competitions.[2] They had their own page until I merged it (per consensus above). merged Kirk Memorial --Chaser T 01:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
We once had a similar debate about the MU page. This lead to the creation of the page MU Greek Life. You might consider doing something like that. Grey Wanderer | Talk 18:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Swim team

The women's swim team could probably also use their own section. Now, is the Index a reliable source? Hmm...Chaser T

More reliable than the Daily Distress!
Agree with Women' swim in separate section. Three coaches, one small scandal, and yet for six years Drury can't swim when it counts.--KHill-LTown 04:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
OK. I expanded a bit. I referenced Drury (gasp) and even used the paper KHill-LTown writes for as a source (double gasp). ;-) --Chaser T 05:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why does everyone get E.C. Grim Hall's Story wrong?

People! Grim was not a private residence. It was a dormitory for nurses at Grim-Smith Hospital. It was built as a dormitory. It was acquired by the University in the 30s, expanded in the 50s. --Xadnder 10 August 2006

It's included now; don't stress out about it. --KHill-LTown 02:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Some Clarification on this. There are three private residence structures still extant relating to the Grim-Smith Hospital. One is the mock-Tudor two ½ story residence of Dr. E. S. Smith on the north side of Patterson Street, which remained the home of Dr. Smith’s daughter. The other is Dr. E.C. Grim’s two story, red brick with slate tile roof on the south side of the street (the third being a clapboard house on Franklin Street across from the College owned by Dr. Grim). This is the building that has the limestone porch banisters. Today this is the building that is called Adair House by TSU. There was a structure that had the same basic design and roof pitching. It was a stucco house-like building with a red brick porch. It contained a dining room entered from the outside and provided nurses housing among other things early in the Grim-Smith History. It was known as the Grim-Smith Annex. Today’s Ezra C. Grim Hall is a newer structure (by comparison) and came about with the prosperity of the Grim-Smith Hospital. Evidence for this resides in the photographic portion of The Publisher’s Historic Manuscript Collection, FBN Press, 213 South Franklin Street, Kirksville, Missouri). (Galiel 21:31, 29 January 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Gum Tree

The page says that a new gum tree was adopted, but I never saw it on campus in the 5 years I was there ('00-'05). Can anyone confirm/deny this? Spin2cool 06:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

It's near OP, in front of Missouri Hall. Maybe someone can submit a story about it to the Monitor and use that as a source. In all seriousness, I doubt it merits inclusion.--Chaser T 12:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible alumnus?

An anonymous user at 71.214.241.233 claims that actor Vincent Price attended school here. Any supporting evidence? --KHill-LTown 03:40, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Not true, but understandable. The St. Louis-born actor was a personal friend of a member of the Fine Arts faculty, and on that basis, made frequent visits to campus, where he gave guest lectures and performances. DavidOaks 14:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I was not the anonymous user to edit, but it is my understanding that Price did in fact attend Truman and the estate of Price has considered financial support because of this fact. Taylorburks 05:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
No, as was stated by DavidOaks, Vincent Price did NOT attend Truman. Price attended, and graduated from Yale University. The reason there is a fine arts scholarship in his name is because out of all the colleges he ever visited, he performed at Truman the most. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.14.124.146 (talk) 01:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Re: Truman in center of city

This map pretty clearly shows that the campus is in the south of the city. I'd put the center near, say, Illinois and Florence, well north of campus. (well north in terms of the size of the city, anyway...) Spin2cool 06:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

It's just a couple blocks south of the downtown area; that might be what the original intent of "center" was. (Although the official Kirksville city limits actually extend a mile or three past the populated area in each direction, which does further centralize the campus.) I'm not disagreeing with you, just throwing some more information into the mix. CaptHayfever 05:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
It's south to me. The city limits of Kirksville extend all the way down to the 63/11 interchange, but it's unincorporated 500 feet to the west and east of 63 for at least the southernmost mile. As for the north, most of Kirksville's growth is up there. The city's starting to become top-heavy, so Truman's settling around the relative bottom of the 'Ville. --KHill-LTown 06:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
It’s rather moot, but historically the Normal School campus was south of the Town of Kirksville. The Town (now City) of Kirksville was established on a Pre-emption Grant (certificate no. 26406) of the North West Quarter of Section Nine in Township Sixty-Two, of Range Fifteen; in the District of Lands subject to sale at Fayette, Missouri; containing 160 acres. The Original Plat ran from the south side of Illinois Street to the north side of Pierce Street and from the east side of James Street to both sides of Marion Street. The residential neighborhood between the campus and the Town of Kirksville was added to the original platted town as “The County Addition” and contains such historic homes (most of the homes were built between 1870 - 1930) as the 1873 B.F. Henry House, the 1890s Pickler-Stahl House, (commonly referred to as ‘The Castle’), and the 1890s John R. Kirk House among others. Even though the City of Kirksville has extended its boundaries over the years, the land occupied south of the Campus feels sparsely populated and was gathered-in mainly to collect property taxes along Highway 63 and Business 63/Franklin Street (which still ended at the south side of the original campus property as of the 1930s and didn’t connect up to the highway for many years). Hence the traditional expression of TSU’s campus being south.
Most of Kirksville’s early plats as well as a wealth of historic source material, photographs, and early papers can be found in The Publisher’s Historic Manuscript Collection, FBN Press, 213 South Franklin Street, Kirksville, Missouri). (Galiel 21:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC))

[edit] West Campus Suites

Those who keep re-posting the "Rev. Baker" claim need to offer some documentation; Granted, unofficial names are both real and hard to demonstrate, but there should be something to back up the assertion. DavidOaks 21:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I keep reposting the "Rev. Baker" reference (it isn't a claim...it is an assertion). My contentions are these: 1) There is a significant number of students that refer to WCS as Baker Hall; a movement supported by more than one student organization (not simply a single student or small group of students). 2) KHill's first edit of this page that removes the reference to Baker Hall does not take into account that we adequately describe the name as "unofficial." The wording in no way implies that the name is an official decision of the university...it is clear that it is merely a student nickname. 3) Even though it is unofficial, it is referred to by a number of students by this name. The purpose of this article is to inform, which is the whole purpose of this addition. 4) There are no other nicknames for West Campus Suites, other than to use the acronym WCS, which is hardly a nickname. 5) Additionally, this article already mentions (rightfully) that there is significant student opposition to the name "West Campus Suites"...it is only fair to include the unofficial nickname that students have adopted in protest to the BOG decision to name it WCS. There is no need to keep censoring this article, as there are plenty of reasons why this reference was included in the article in the first place. Taylorburks 05:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
How many students is "a significant number" and who is Brian Baker? The only thing I can find about him is that he was a member of the Academic Competition team, in the college republicans, and this index article that mentions him. Neither seems to give someone the kind of notoriety that leads to his name entering the common vernacular.
A few google searches also reveals that Taylor Burks, the party responsible for the edits, was in the college republican organization with Baker. Just because a few friends get together and decide to jokingly call a building something, doesn't make it widespread. Also, if the usage of the name hasn't become widespread enough to be documented anywhere (the Index, monitor, organization websites, etc) then it's not notable enough to include on Wikipedia.
Spin2cool 07:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Did some checking with the res life people. They have never heard of this "unofficial" name, and suspect it's a sort of grassroots campaign. If that's so, it's admirable in its way, but not encyclopedia-worthy, and Wikipedia should certainly not be used as a means to the end.150.243.14.42 14:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I certainly appreciate the interest in verifying Rev. Brian Baker's relationship to Truman. Unfortunately, the editor who questions that left his/her post unsigned, so I cannot respond directly. I think it should be noted that no one has answered my contentions on why the name reference should be left in this page. The editors opposing my edit are starting with the assumption that this is a joke, which unfortunately biases the discussion against inclusion. As for the lack of widespread usage, your threshold of proof for this unofficial name is unreasonably high. An unofficial name is rarely recorded electronically, often only being remarked upon after a very lengthy amount of time when it has been used in common vernacular. A nickname isn't something that is often referred to in newspaper articles or organizational websites, and when we especially consider the very young age of the dormitory in question, again, your threshold for proof is unrealistically high. We're dealing with something very intangible and difficult to verify. In regards to Res Life, they are rarely in tune with student movement...in fact, they are notorious for being isolated from student opinions. However, even if we accept that this is a grass-roots movement (which it arguably is), that doesn't preclude it from being mentioned. I can't give you a number of students who refer to it as WCS; nor can I give you a number for the Baker Hall reference, other than give you my assurance it is not "a few friends" joking around. As for my name and relationship to Rev. Baker, I again, I appreciate your interest, but I think that goes beyond the scope of this discussion. It is worth remarking that I'm the only editor (other than KHill-Ltown) to use my real name, so reverse inquiries on my part are impossible. I think you should focus on the discussion at hand and not get caught up in why and who is supporting this addition of fact into Wikipedia. Taylorburks 22:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Today I asked 5 different students that currently attend Truman, and none of them had ever heard of the name. Nice try, Taylor. Spin2cool 01:58, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
You asked a whole 5 students? That's a good sample population, especially if all 5 are your friends, which I assume they are. Basically, all you proved is that you haven't heard of this unofficial name because your friends haven't heard of it. Would it be proof if I said I've heard at least 5 different students that currently attend Truman refer to WCS as Baker Hall? Taylorburks 17:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm in my third year at Truman, I'm a member of Academic Competition Organization, and I've talked with Brian Baker several times. I've also never heard West Campus Suites EVER referred to as "Baker Hall". That, along with another real lack of credible evidence, means that it really shouldn't be included in this article. Inside jokes by individual organizations don't belong on wikipedia.--Sovietjugernaut 11:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
"A nickname isn't something that is often referred to in newspaper articles or organizational websites" - Those are probably the premier places for a nickname to be used. Grey Wanderer | Talk 06:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
This is interesting, in a postmodern kind of way, and it's something Wikipedians have to be alert to -- I don't think this is a joke at all, but inserting something in a reference book to create the appearance/apparatus of fact, in order to create a fact in the real world (or at least in the symbolic economy). There was something like this in a Borges story, I remember. The phenomenon needs a name. I propose "wikifacting" (transitive/intransitive)DavidOaks 13:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh my word...I don't think this should be a big deal. I inserted this reference into this page because this is the only nickname that I've heard WCS referred to as...and again, by several different students. Not including it into wikipedia does not make it untrue...it just makes Wikipedia less informative. I think it is worth remarking upon (again, like I said before) that this page refers to the student opposition to the BOG decision to name Baker Hall as WCS, yet we can't include the nickname for the dorm with that same reference. That BOG-gles the mind. Taylorburks 17:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I think I failed to remind everyone who Brian Baker is, so I want to clear that up. Rev. Baker is a Northeast Missouri native who currently lives and teaches in Hannibal, MO. He was also the Senior pastor at a couple of small, local baptist churches, as well as associate pastor at Fellowship Baptist in Kirksville. He was on the Truman Academic Bowl team that went to Nationals several years ago, a fixture of campus politics, and a mainstay among a generation of students older than myself. I am not advocating that the name be officially changed to Rev. Brian C. Baker Hall, but I don't think it is surprising that a number of students do refer to WCS as Baker hall, given Rev. Baker's close ties to this community and mentorship of numerous students who later became intimately involved with campus affairs. Taylorburks 17:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I can't believe there is this much discussion over a stupid nickname. I've never heard of the nickname nor the man, nor do I care. 216.163.254.1 18:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, a claim of fact was made, and must be fairly evaluated. I did some journalistic footwork, informally polling. Upshot: no one had heard of the Baker nickname (bewildered stares). However, there is evidence that it is sometimes referred to as "the Hilton," or in other ways that recognize its cushiness relative to the other res halls. DavidOaks 04:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Now that one is new to me. I'll grant that there are students out there who haven't heard of Baker Hall, but I've never heard of it being called "the Hilton." Considering how much was spent (and wasted) on it, that might be a better nickname. Taylorburks 17:07, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reorganization plan

Did someone want to mention Dixon's recnt reorganization plan? I was trying to decide if it was worthy of mention or just a small matter that doesn't deserve mention on wikipedia. Jhawk1024 13:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Neither. It's most definitely a large matter (especially to certain departments), but it's also not yet an encyclopedic note. CaptHayfever 01:30, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
We could use this tag: {{current}}

DavidOaks 02:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Or if we just made it its own section this would also suffice: {{current-section}} Jhawk1024 02:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greeks?

I know the argument was previously made that all Greek letter organizations are just like any other campus organization, but the recent decision to hire a full-time "Director of Greek Life" would indicate that the school now feels otherwise. In light of this, I'm going to bring back the listing of Greek letter social organizations. Md09 15:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The campus also has a whole center dedicated to student involvement. I don't see your point. Spin2cool 19:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I still don't think it belongs. Jauerback 01:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I would venture to guess (optimistically) that one in six Truman students are involved in a Greek organization. Compared with other universities where more than half the campus is Greek and/or frat houses rival European palaces, Truman's a mere Alexandria. Oppose listings. --KHill-LTown 08:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe the actual number is closer to a quarter (25%), although I'll double check that. 150.243.32.180 15:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
oppose - logging my vote in case my above statement didn't make that clear. Also reference the previous discussion above. Spin2cool 19:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Everyone but MD9 voted in opposition to the Greek addition. Given all of the reasons cited in the two (!) discussions on adding greeks to the page, I'm going to remove the section.