Talk:True Jesus Church/Archive 1

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[edit] POV

When I first saw this article, I thought that it was OK but I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable. Warning bells sound in the opening paragraph: There are approximately 1.5 million believers and truth seekers ... (emphasis added). Truth seekers sounds like a POV term.

(In response) To clarify, in True Jesus Church, records are taken annually, and truth seekers are counted as people who attend church but are not yet baptized. Thus a person may have attended the True Jesus Church regularly for years but never decided to become baptized. Such a person would still be counted as a truth-seeker.

Then, how do you count the number of "truth-seekers"? If they just come and go? Plus, the "truth" in "truth-seekers" is misleading. Unless, one is being narcisstic and calls one's own self/idea the "truth". Heilme 04:58, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Again, under Administration, The True Jesus Church is considered having a well structured and organised system sounds self congratulatory.

(In reponse) Although this is a rather subjective point of view, it's fairly legitimate. In each local church, a board (of members who meet certain requirements: for example, a minimum of 3 years of being in the church, since 3 years is the amount of time the apostles of Christ learned and lived with Christ) is annually elected by the entire congregation. This board is divided into different sections, such as pastoring, religious education, ministry, training, etc. In the US TJC, above the board members is the General Assembly of America that is again made up of another board. Finally, there is the International Assembly. Of course the system in Taiwan is even more organized than the system in America, since there are so many churches and resources in Taiwan. Many of the churches in America stem from Taiwan (Taiwanese TJC immigrants to America established many of the churches in America.)

The Criticism section does not appear critical.

(In response) Everything the True Jesus Church says is backed up by a Biblical verse. (Yes, even the Footwashing passage: "Jesus answered, 'Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.'" John 13:8; "Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them." John 13:14-17) Now the reason they say Holy Spirit is important is because Paul states in Ephesians that Holy Spirit is the "guarantee" of eternal life. "Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:13-14. TJC believes the Holy Spirit is tangible; its members have the physical manifestation of the Holy Spirit, as described in Acts 2. It is often described as a rolling of the tongue, and there have been testimonies where the tongue can be interpreted by others during prayer, or those (young boys) who have laughed at the prayer were unable to move until they repented. This Spirit is the latter rain as described in the book of Revelations.

And, of course, the Bible is always correct and can be used as a source of criticism for and against a Christian idea. How nice. Heilme 04:58, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Testimonials is blatantly POV. Cutler June 30, 2005 10:50 (UTC)

(In response) Perhaps to many, but they are true. They are only a testament to God's workings in daily lives, and are only testified for the sake of edifying others. You may not believe the testimonies, but a word of caution: "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' " Luke 16:31.

Yeah, a word of caution: "He said to him after everyone left, what a jackass". Your "word of caution" is just like one-sided Nazi propaganda, narcisstic "truth". Can you quote something not from the bible? Are all the "truth" really in that book? Why don't Einstein just become a good Christian, instead of inventing E=mc^2 then? Heilme 04:58, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps "truth seekers" include those who don't believe in TJC. It all seems bizarre to me. At least one of the critical pages linked at the foot quotes a great array of numbers bandied around by TJC. I lose, er, faith in any of them. -- Hoary June 30, 2005 15:25 (UTC)

(In response) As I mentioned earlier, truth seekers are people who attend church regularly but have not been baptized earlier. One who has attended church regularly for years is called a truth seeker until he is baptized. But even baptized members of the church who stop attending regularly will not be added into the count. (At least for the churches in America, it's a mathematical equation to simply provide an estimate for the GA/records.)

Truth seekers could be the term they use to call their believers. Like how people of America are called Americans. And why ALL 5 continents? There are 7 right?Changed July 3, 2005 18:50 (GMT+8)

(In response) We don't have churches in Antarctica. The "5" is probably outdated; I think South America is the latest continent to actually have established churches, although I'm not sure. It may just be that they are the last ones to actually build a church (chapel, dedication). There are believers scattered around and prayer houses- but not necessarily official church buildings.

The True Jesus Church uses the term "truthseeker" to refer to a person who is interested in the faith but has not yet been baptised. Hence, they are seeking the truth. There is no other special connotation to the word. 165.123.140.215 18:59, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


I am a True Jesus Church member, and there are many things that this wikipedia article has not mentioned and has made unclear. If anyone has questions please please pllleeaasseee email or message me. the most unique thing about TJC (i hope you know what this stands for...) is our prayer in tongue. I myself pray in tongue, and though it seems strange it is something that cannot be faked. dory 07:11, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jump!

This is my favorite part: there were reliable eye witness accounts of people jumping up and down during prayer sessions but never colliding with the ceiling or any object. Could it be that the ceiling was too high? Inspired by this article (and not by Jesus), I tried jumping up and down in my office today and I too didn't collide with the ceiling or anything else. -- Hoary June 30, 2005 15:25 (UTC)

I don't believe you or them. Clearly you cannot just jump about at prayer meetings without hitting the ceiling. Do you have any evidence? [citation needed] - please. Le Hibou 01:55, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Truthseeker is the TJC term for non-baptized members. As for evidence, it's on the level of anecdotes--would you always have evidence for them? Tc61380 23:55, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
How high are these ceilings? If they're as high as mine, you need to present no evidence of a failure to collide with them. If by contrast they're so low that collision is near-inevitable, then these anecdotes would at least need to have been reproduced in credible, disinterested publications. -- Hoary 05:39, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I changed the wording of that section. Again I emphasize these are personal testimonials, and not scientific experiments. I don't believe many religious experiences, in TJC or not, have been reproduced or verified by credible, disinterested publications. I hope my changes are satisfactory. Cheers!Tc61380 18:02, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
It all looks like piffle to me. Well, has any credible newspaper bothered to report these claims, even if only as claims? (The Guardian, the first newspaper I look at, has produced a grand total of zero coverage of "TJC".) When I went to TJC's website, I didn't see anything about jumping -- just sob stories about infant illnesses, etc., apparently smoothed out (or constructed?) by an in-house writer. -- Hoary 04:19, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Newsweek recently mentioned TJC in an article [1]. Maybe there are other news sources that have covered TJC, I don't know for sure. As I am emphasizing, these are personal testimonies.

I don't believe that the validity of God relies on how many news sources cover your church, or if your church is "verified" by outside sources. Granted, the history of the True Jesus church can be dubious to an outsider. I admit this myself, as I am a TJC member. I will give some practical reasons why the history comes off as dubious: TJC is a relatively young church, and was started in China during tumultuous times in the 1900's, given Chinese history. Much of the early history was recorded orally, or passed on orally. (If you think about it, doesn't a lot of early history start this way? Through oral sources? Just my personal thought.) But more importantly, TJC doesn't emphasize much on its history, but rather, the teachings of God.

As for those testimonies, they are real and not fabricated. Yes, they are smoothed out for grammatical errors and flow, and sometimes they are translated from Chinese or other languages. A lot of other testimonies are in Chinese, including the jumping one. I will try to find some written text as reference (but it will be from TJC), because a lot this stuff is in Chinese stored away in various places in Taiwan or USA. If you do feel so strongly about removing the jumping part, hey, I can understand why. But I personally know a few of the people in the testimonies on the web site, and I welcome you to come to TJC and meet those people and know the truth for yourself.Tc61380 01:03, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

(In response) I agree: this testimony is actually from Taiwan. It was during a prayer session, and they weren't "jumping." (I think that was just a typo.) I changed the wording to "floating" because they were still in kneeling position, but levitating and moving through the air. It's actually pretty cool. Unfortunately, this doesn't happen in our Church anymore because this level of faith is hard to obtain. In Matthew 17:20, "He replied, 'Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.'"

Hahahahahahahha.......that's cool, isn't it? Levitating and moving in air!!! So, why don't they just levitate and move through the air all the way back to home? I am sure that everyone of them can levitate and move through the air, they don't need cars anymore and stock prices for Toyota, General Motors will all fall. It's funny, you know, they can also sink into the ground, and that will still be a miracle. And, another quote from the Bible indeed "enlighten" us!! Heilme 05:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Key.

I appology for causing much trouble with the NPOV thing.. To me the bible holds all the answers. one should learn truth form the bible and only the bible. if such church or group complys with the teachings in the bible, then they are doing the right thing.(POV) -- concious (August 22, 2005 13:05 (GMT+8)


I will be duly deceived by the holy bible. Good thing you warned me. --Howcheng 21:47, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Amen!!!! From now onwards, I will just go read the Bible and when my faith is so strong, I can rise from the dead, all sickness healed, even levitate through the air!!! You know this kind of religion is bad for the economy. Because you wouldn't need doctors, cars, and coffin anymore. Heilme 05:17, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article in croatian (please stop!)

Hi,

Some idiot for the second time wrote an article about this Church. The article was written on croatian wikipedia but it was not in croatian language.

It was real parody of article because that IP-logged idiot used internet translator that translated (english to croatian) "washing" to "Washington" and "Church" to "Churchill".

In our version, we don't have "foot washing" but someting that would translate to "foot of Washington". I thought that this religion have some kind of totem that represents foot of first US president, so I deleted it. Only later I realised that this was not the result of smoking to much pot while editing article.

So, the message to the autor - plaese don't do this again. This doesn't help increasing te number of members of your church. It just make all of You look like bunch of idiots.

--Ante Perkovic 06:57, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

The Croatian version of the article has now been written properly. --George Thompson 07:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV again

Here's a quotation:

Initially the governing was a democratic system based on God's governance. (神政民主制度)which is done according to the biblical interpretations in 1 Corinthians 2:21-23 on a hierarchical structure with God at the top ---- followed by Jesus Christ ----then the believers ---- and finally the divine workers near the bottom. Obviously God and Jesus are above the believers which reflects the fact that Christ is the head of the Church.

That any system of government has God at the top assumes, inter alia, that God exists. (It's also unclear: they followed the directions of God as related by whom -- by just any of them?) This is a point of view.

I've therefore reverted to the form preceding the unexplained and unannounced removal of the POV template. Before removing this again, please check that the article has a neutral point of view. Also, please describe your edit. (Every time you edit, you'll see a box immediately below the main edit box: "Edit summary"; please use it.) Thank you. -- Hoary 08:14, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV yet again

We read: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by Me - Since the church bears the name of Jesus, therefore, one can receive eternal life only through the True Church.

This is PoV (to put it mildly).

Large sections of this article look less like an encyclopedia article and more like a broadsheet. Could some disinterested but knowledgable person improve this article? -- Hoary 08:51, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Reply: The original website of this quote is uncertain and this viewpoint is not shared by the majority of our church believers. As a member myself, I am quite certain that when Jesus made this statement in John chapter 15, He was referring to Himself (not the True Jesus Church). Therefore I have removed this quote since such interpretation clearly does not comply with the teachings in the bible.

[edit] Please calm down everyone

This article is good and informative but it needs some polishing especially for POV. I am also curious for the stance of this denomination to other Oneness Pentecostal/Apostolic Denominations as even I would disagree this is the true church and call my own the true church like you I would use the same verses and I would say the testimony of the Holy Spirit manifesting itself in my church (ex. Interpretation of tongues, tongues, people reviving, miraculous healing, and others) but I don't b/c I also believe fellow denominations hold truth to. But yeah if you could give feedback. I would also call to attention some users here who are intolerant of this writer and Article CALM DOWN this is only Wikipedia not life or death please if you want to discuss on the article and it's flaws stay on topic if you want to go in theological debate then state it but don't mix 'em. El_Apostolico

[edit] for translation purposes

The "True" in the name, does it refer to jesus or the church? ie the church of true jesus or the true church of jesus?--Mayz 01:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] POV yet again

Just to take one example among many, we read: The Lord has confirmed that the True Jesus Church is His church through signs and miracles. For example, the witness of blood during baptisms in the True Jesus Church is strong proof of the true cleansing power of baptism. Others have been healed during baptism, or upon receiving the Holy Spirit. It's unclear what "witness" means; I'll tentatively take it to mean "appearance". Whatever it means, no independent source is given for this phenomenon. There's no explanation of how, if it did occur, it would demonstrate any cleansing power. (While I'm not a doctor, I'd take it as a rather dangerous sign.) "Others have been healed" -- of what? And according to which disinterested observer?

The whole article looks like something that might have been printed on some leaflet somebody might stick into my letterbox -- and which I'd immediately throw into the trash, regretting the needless destruction of trees. It only intermittently makes efforts to say something encyclopedic. Wikipedia is not advertising. -- Hoary 08:56, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


No, you know one of the sections I'm talking about: you know the section from which I gave an example. I think that section is a mess; I think other sections of this fanatically translated article are a mess too. -- Hoary 09:05, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


That section, after your edits: The Lord has confirmed that the True Jesus Church is His church through signs and miracles. For example, the witness of blood during baptisms in the True Jesus Church is strong proof of the true cleansing power of baptism. Others have been healed during baptism, or upon receiving the Holy Spirit. -- says which disinterested person? Which academic study has concluded this? Or, failing that, which columnist in which respected newspaper (Le Monde, not France-Soir or blogs) has concluded it? Elsewhere: The members of True Jesus Church, who have received the Holy Spirit, are able to speak in tongues and therefore it is a sign that there is the abiding of the Holy Spirit with the church. What disinterested person agrees that they have "received the Holy Spirit" (whatever that means)? How does the ability to "speak in tongues" show that there is the "abiding" (?) of whatever any more convincingly than it does in many non-TJC churches in, say, the US bible belt? Incidentally, original reasoning is not required or even appropriate: what's needed are references to academic and similar studies, sane journalism, or at the least, column writing by sane people. Hoary 09:18, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
In another section: The power of God was mightily manifested, through the presence of the Holy Spirit and the miraculous healing of illnesses during the early stages of the church development. Where's the disinterested confirmation of "miraculous healing"? Remember, extraordinary claims need an extraordinary degree of evidence. -- Hoary 09:32, 15 March 2006 (UTC)