Talk:Troy Smith

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[edit] NCAA violations

Certainly Smith's NCAA suspension is a pertinent fact about his NCAA career. It is not "vandalism". Reverting edits along that line is an abuse of the vandalism tag.

Smith's suspension was not dished out by the NCAA, but by Ohio State University.Rkevins82 04:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The vandalism I removed was not what you keep adding, it was something else entirely -- although it too was coincidentally removed in the revert. I would, however, have edited it out anyway on these grounds: A) it wasn't cited properly per Wikipedia's manual of style, and B) even if it had been, it doesn't serve any real purpose in the article. The article itself is not a comprehensive biography about Troy Smith and NO article on Wikipedia is intended to defame anyone. As far as your allegations of "criminality" are concerned, Troy's bad decisions were not prosecuted as criminal (they did not even draw not sanctions from the NCAA). He missed two games. It hardly warrants a mention, let alone a whole subsection. Before you start accusing people of abusing Wikpedia policy, perhaps you should re-read the Wikipedia policies on neutral points of view and controversial subject matter in articles. Ryecatcher773 05:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I hope that the criminal conduct information I've written is acceptable.Rkevins82 05:54, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Troy Smith's Residence

According to the Ohio State Buckeye's website, Troy Smith's "hometown" is Cleveland, Ohio. Where is the source of his "birthplace" in Cincinnati, Ohio? Specter01010 07:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

He wasn't born in Cincinnati, he was born in Columbus, OH. And the Official Ohio State website -- which is where I have just discovered (from reading Smith's bio) that a lot of the Wiki article was plagiarized from! :-O -- states only his hometown being Cleveland. I think it was in the Pat Forde article on the ESPN website that says he was born in Columbus while his mom was down there for some reason. I haven't seen any actual 'official' listing though. Heck, Yahoo! has him listed as being from Glenville, which isn't an independent entity... it's a neighborhood in Cleveland!

Ryecatcher773 05:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Did you also fix the plagiarism? That is not acceptable on Wikipedia. Johntex\^talk 22:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey, if you some time to fix it, be my guest. All I said was that I noticed it looked fishy after I started to work on it, but I have hardly had a chance to go back and rewrite the entire article, and I am certainly not the one who plagiarized it. Ryecatcher773 03:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm just asking a question. You noticed the bits that you believe are copyright violations. Therefore, you are in the best position to take them out. You don't have to re-write them, just take them out if you are confident they are truly violations. Johntex\^talk 03:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Which parts appear to be plagiarized. (I've done a fair amount of the writing over the past several months) Rkevins82 05:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's had to say now what was (with all the revisions that have been done just in the past week), but I do remember clearly that the part in the trivia about his siblings -- listed previously as siblings, not foster siblings -- as being lifted directly from the official site's Troy Smith bio and pasted here. I'll haver to go back and check (it's been a crazy week, I haven't had much time, sorry) Ryecatcher773 15:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Following up, I've gone back and removed the piece that appears to be plagiarized completely. In any case, it is barely relevant to the article, and I haven't seen any documentation of his 'siblings' anywhere else but on the Buckeye's website, which doesn't list the source. Ryecatcher773 18:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not complaining about Ryecatcher cutting the information, just the occassional overreaction of Wikipedians to plagarism charges or uncited material (this is coming from someone who cites everything). This Beacon Journal article confirms what the OSU website says (which seems like an excellent source). Instead of rewriting and sourcing the material, people cut, cut, cut. Rkevins82 20:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Draft Speculation

While it may be true that the scouts have rated him as too small to be a top pick, and while he very likely will fall past the first round in the 2007 draft, the aim of this article is to provide a biographical overview and perhaps a statistical report on Troy Smith, not to post opinions of the Mel Kipers of the world. Leave that stuff for ESPN, fan blogs, and online bulletin board communities. Ryecatcher773 01:32, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Troy Smith measured 6'0" and 222 lbs. at the Senior Bowl this week. Due to the speculation as to his height and overall size, I think it would be important to update these statistics to reflect his true accurate measurements. http://www.middletownjournal.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/college/osu/2007/01/23/ddn012307senior.html

Until it appears in a media guide, it shouldn't be considered an 'official' measurement. Right now, Ohio State has him listed as it appears on the article. When he is an NFL'er, then we can change it to whomever he plays for lists him as being. Ryecatcher773 04:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

What is wrong with citing to the media account, which has been shared widely? It is verifiable. Rkevins82 16:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Waiting for his combine measurements may be prudent. However, media guides are hardly accurate measurements and it is well known that media guides will often exaggerate a players height and weight. His height is worth mentioning because it is universally considered in his value in the upcoming draft. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thorvath (talk • contribs) 05:06, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

Media guides are where the info is drawn for height and weight measurements. Accuracy is relevant only to a source. It's not as though they weigh each athlete every day and post it somewhere. Ryecatcher773 05:54, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

You are right, athletes are not measured everyday. But players entering the NFL draft are meticulously measured and weighed at senior all-star games, pre-draft workouts, and the combine. The players are measured because college media guides often exaggerate a players size and pro teams want to get an accurate measurement. As stated previously, Troy Smith's height is a very determinative factor in where he is chosen in the NFL draft. He has been measured at 6'0" once already at the Senior Bowl. He will be measured again at the combine in Indianapolis. To continue to ignore these measurements and leave 6'1" injures the overall credibility of the entire article.

I can appreciate what you are saying, however, besides that there are plenty of ball players who may or may not be listed accurately in their respective college media guide, there is still no guarantee that the NFL team which drafts those athletes will print the info accurately either. In fact, just a few weeks ago on a Chicago sports-radio show, former Bear "Mongo" Steve McMichael remarked on how much fudging on heights and weights in media guides has been a common practice (they were talking about Brian Urlacher's entry from a couple years back as an example). For whatever reason, it happens. The only real reason anyone is making noise about the case with Troy Smith is because everyone keeps talking about how his stature will affect his ability in the NFL. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Derek Anderson is listed at 6'6 in the Browns media guide, and he threw the heck out of the ball at Oregon State, but that hasn't (so far) made him as successful a passer in the NFL as he was in college. Whatever the case, until Smith's contract becomes the property of a pro team, his height ought to remain what the OSU media guide says it is. And, incidentally, I disagree with you wholeheartedly on your last sentence: the fact that the source is cited is exactly why the article's credibility does NOT suffer. Wikipeidia is not a source of authority -- it relies on sources... and like I pointed out, Sports Illustrated, ESPN, and Yahoo! Sports (to name a few) all list Troy Smith's size as it appears in the media guide. Ryecatcher773 06:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not know why you guys are making a big deal of this. But I looked up Troy Smith's height on ESPN and it is 6'0 not 6'1.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfldraft/draft/tracker/player?id=11150&draftyear=2007&action=login&appRedirect=http%3A%2F%2Finsider.espn.go.com%2Fnfldraft%2Fdraft%2Ftracker%2Fplayer%3Fid%3D11150%26draftyear%3D2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.149.100.21 (talk) 17:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

That's actually from the Draft Tracker (combine) subsection of the ESPN site. Here is the ESPN listing from the College Football section: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=133648

Ryecatcher773 19:41, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Listen, I dont know why you remain so obstinant as to Troy Smith's height. I dont know if you have a crush on him or what. You know and I know, and everyone else knows that he is 6'0". It is just a matter of changing it now or later. So you can continue this charade and continue to make yourself look silly, or you can change his height to reflect his accurate measurements. I am not trying to offend you, I am just trying to understand where you are coming from. I am from Cleveland and want to see Troy Smith do well. I just want to make sure that his article is as accurate as possible. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thorvath (talk • contribs) 03:50, 28 January 2007 (UTC).

Well, if you aren't trying to offend, then watch your tone. My interests are completely a matter of principal. Until he is drafted, and another media guide lists his height as different, then the Ohio State guide is the official source. As I stated above, there is no guarantee that he will be listed as what the combine, or Senior Bowl reports list him as being in an NFL team media guide. Media guides are sources, and there is no question that they are hardly immutable truths. But they are cited, copyrighted sources, and so we follow what they say. I, actually, don't personally know how tall Troy Smith, and unless you have measured him yourself, I'd say you know as much as I do about his actual height. Height can vary by time of day due to muscle and skeletal elongation that takes place over the course of the day -- ask a doctor on that one if you don't believe me. People slouch. Media guides lie. Who knows. I am 6'2 barefoot, but I don't really notice that my cousin, who is 6'1 is actually shorter than me, nor do I carry around a tape measure. When Troy Smith is drafted, and when (insert NFL team name here) publishes their media guide for the 2007-08 season -- provided he makes the cut -- then I will change it. Although I live in Chicago now, I too am from Cleveland, and I too wish to see him do well in the NFL -- but neither of those things has a thing to do with it. Principal is principal, and I'm not going to give ground to a fellow Buckeye anymore than I would to someone from Michigan or Florida, because it's not about that. You say you want accuracy? Well, the article is accurate, since I am citing the copyrighted source, which by the way is the same source ESPN (not Mel Kiper's offshoot on the ESPN website, but ESPN's NCAA Football portion of the website), CBS Sportsline, Yahoo! Sports, and most importantly, the official Ohio State University Athletics website use. Ryecatcher773 00:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

This page seems really biased and makes alot of statements that seem grounded in the author's opinion rather than in fact, such as refering to the buckeyes as "creampuffs", as one of many examples.

[edit] Heisman Trophy

This section: "However in the final game of his college career, his stats were terrible to say the least for a Heisman winner. He threw for only 35 yards and rushed for -29 in a 41-14 loss to the Florida Gators. After this game, Troy was ridiculed for being overrated, and that he couldn't stand a chance against better quarterbacks like Brady Quinn in the NFL."

This has zero relevance to him winning the Heisman Trophy. I recall there was an article about the "Heisman Jinx," which could possibly be mentioned, as other Heisman winners have had bad bowl games after winning the award; but the above statement makes no mention of that. Furthermore, where are the citations for these claims? As most Heisman winners played poorly in their bowl games, the statement "his stats were terrible for a Heisman winner" holds no water. I've heard a lot about that game, but I've NEVER heard any mention of terrible stats regarding Heisman winners, it's always the "Heisman Jinx." So, I'm curious, where are the sources? If none are found, I will omit the aforementioned quotation in question. GregTheVirus 01:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccurate and misleading quotation

Pro Career section contains the following, "That's going to be a fun challenge for Troy, because now he's been around enough," Billick said. "The focus and attention that he brings to [preparing] is heightened."[15]

However the source article states, "A fun challenge for Troy," Billick said. "He has to be ready. This could be real. The focus and attention he has to bring to it is heightened." http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/11/13/ravens.mcnair.ap/index.html

The article takes what is needed to be done and presents it as if it is currently being done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.173.219.204 (talk) 01:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pro stats

I was wondering if anyone could update Troy's pro stats?Burner0718 (talk) 04:23, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Never mind, I got it. :-) Burner0718 (talk) 05:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

They might have it on ESPN.com. You could just copy and paste from there. RC-0722 (talk) 05:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Troy Smith

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Contents

[edit] NCAA violations

[edit] Troy Smith's Residence

[edit] Draft Speculation

[edit] Heisman Trophy

[edit] Inaccurate and misleading quotation

[edit] Pro stats

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