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Contents

[edit] episode of BBC's "Horizon"

Does anyone want to have a go at writing up some of the current theories summarised in a recent edition of the BBC's Horizon programme? A transcript is available online here [1]

Another page in their site even links to this very article! Timrollpickering 23:13, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] alleged/suspected/hypothesized/proposed Troy

In the light of the findings since 1996, this article is far too cautious about identifying archaeological with homeric Troy. Of course the "identity" is not complete, not proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, and the controversy should be noted. Since 1996, however, a strong majority of scholars identify (W)ilion and Wilusha, and for very good reasons. I will try to add sections concerning these recent developments. dab 18:42, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Opening doesn't make much sense

The opening of the article, "Troy (...) is not a legendary city, scene of the Trojan war" doesn't make much sense. Is that supposed to say "is a legendary city"? ~~

fixed it (it was vandalism. you can fix these things yourself, too) dab (ᛏ) 12:57, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Real Location of Troy

There is a very intersting theory that has its roots in geography and archeology, and puts Troy much closer to Greece... Check it out at: http://www.troya.com.mx/. The book was published in Croatian, and it is by no means a work of an amateur, R. Salinas Price is a scholar educated in the United States, more on his study on Homer at: http://www.homer.com.mx/index.html

Yugoslav Troy? Well, feel free to add it as an intriguing 'dissenting voice.' No "the real location"-style statements in the article, though, please. dab (ᛏ) 09:08, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to not mention that garbage at all in the article, also. Alexander 007 07:43, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Patton 117 reporting in, p[lease feel free to see the discussion below about how it was in England. go to the link before you bash it please.

[edit] Wrong Category

Ancient Troy was not exactly a Greek city, so I've modified the category to Trojans. Alexander 007 05:59, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

well, everybody speaks Greek in Homer. Plus, there is some evidence that there may have been a Greek upper-class that had imposed itself on the Luwian population, in Wilusa. But it's difficult to classify anything as "Greek" in that time anyway, there were only "Achaean" and "Danaans" etc. dab (ᛏ) 10:07, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Patton 117 here, Homer's story was about a celtic civil war, and was translated into greek so that the people he was telling the story to the greeks

see Alaksandu where I did a brief outline of said evidence. dab (ᛏ) 07:18, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Troy in England

Well it was written by the greeks from Homer's original versiopn which was translated from his native celtic tounge to greek

Has anyone ever read Iman Wilkins book where troy once stood, in it he describes why Troy would have been a Celtic City, and how the Aecheans, which means seamen, where warriors from central europe who banded together to capture the british celts tin mines so that the mainland europena Celts could make bronze at a cheaper price. the following link will lead you to the site http://www.troy-in-england.co.uk/

a typical case of pseudohistory. dab (ᛏ) 16:37, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

If you read it, the invaders are described as travelling over a wine dark sea called Oceanus. The Greeks would have called it the Ægean sea, which is a deep blue color as compared to the Northern Atlantic which is often described as being wine dark

Also, Achilles is noted as watching the sun rise over the sea and his barracks. Which means that an Asian landing site is out of the question which would put the shores on the west.

Achean is also a greek version of a CELTIC word that means Water Men There are seven rivers flowing across the Troad. there is also an eighth river called the Temese, which was the name for the Thames untill the 850's AD. the turkish plain has two rivers.

I would like to take the claim for creating this discussion, as i was not supposed to be working on this at the time due to the fact that i am taking a computer Apps class at this time. Patton 117

again, this is so far out on the lunatic fringe that it's not worth refuting. At most, if you must, insert a single sentence saying somebody came up with the idea. For anything more, create a subarticle dedicated to the theory. dab (ᛏ) 07:19, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

You remind me of the lunatic conservaties who say that Harry Potter is evil, and have never even read it. I, Patton 117, am a conservative who reads the books by the way.

I have read it, and it's not remotely believable. James 23:15, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Why not, i have read both the Iliad and Iman Wilkins book, and find it meshes

Mainly because it's based on questionable etymologies. James 04:31, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

So how do you explain the fact that Achiles was able to watch the sun rise over both the ocean and the soldiers barracks. Also, I forgot to mention this, but greeks for centuries back have been of average height, average, complexion, with brown hair and brown eyes. Agamemnon is blond, as is Achiles. Traits that resemble the Celts more than the Greeks.

The Iliad is an oral poem, and as such inconsitencies and errors crept in over the several hundred years during which it was composed. Also, the person who "wrote" it was likely not there, so they would have no real idea on which side of Troy the camp was. Also, there's no concrete proof about what Greeks looked like over the centuries. Furthermore, there's nothing to suggest that blonde in the Iliad is the same thing as blonde today. James 05:09, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

what? I'm not saying anything is "evil". I am saying it is stupid. Nobody claims Harry Potter is a factual report. If you claim that this England business is fiction then no problem. The arguments are crap, man. Take a good look at the map of the Troas. See the bay? Is that a north-to-south coast facing west? I thought so. dab (ᛏ) 06:43, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Have a look at that map. The poem, in spite of being oral, contains exact knowledge of Greece and Anatolia. Now take a list at Trojan_War#Armies_on_the_Trojan_side. These are all historical peoples of Anatolia. What were the Phrygians doing in England? The Carians? The Lycians? etc.?? You may as well claim that the Greeks were really Eskimos invading the Aztecs. The theory is too kooky even to waste breath on it, sorry. Read some serious books about Troy. You seem to have no idea what is possible when kooks play with etymologies. Everything suddenly is Basque, or Sumerian, or Slavic, or Celtic. That's because these people have no method, something everybody else has been adopting for 400 years now, since Descartes. Sorry, but we do not have the time to educate whoever believes in such things about the 400 years they missed, short of saying, read it up. dab (ᛏ) 06:54, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Egypt is refrenced as not wanting to go to war with the Trojans, however, texts from egypt show that before Alexander, it was known by its people as Al-Kheb, which means, land of the Pharoahs.

Greek Women stayed home, same with the women of the cultures around turkey at the time. Saxon, Celtic and many other women of the north went to war with their husbands. Homer tells of Amazones, who speak some of the multitude of languagesspoken within Iliums Earthen Walls.

Patton 117, back again, I was watching the History Channel, and they where doing a show on Crypto Zoology, creatures with very little scientific proof that they exist, and thus disregarded. I would like to point out that the Mountain Gorilla, the Giant Squid, The Ceolcanth, and many more animals where thought to not exist, but as we know, all three have been proven to exist. So just because some one dissents from the majority doesn't mean he is wrong. Where would the world be if the Free French Military and the German Resistance, both of whom desented from the Nazi Parties in their countries, just agreed with their government durinmg WWII, it can be argued that the attempt on Hitler's life during the later part of World War II brought about the Allied Victory even sooner.

You can't just dismiss this theory so easily if you haven't even read the book. I can assure you it makes a hell of a lot more sense than Troy being in eastern europe. Iman Wilkins covers almost every aspect of the poems, from the vegetation and climate to the places where the regiments came from. I'm not asking you to believe it, but read the book first before being so skeptical.

You can't just dismiss the consensus that Troy is in Turkey if you haven't even read the massive body of evidence that this view is based on. Not just the Iliad, but ancient Greek geographers like Strabo, the Hittite texts that mention Wilusa and the Ahhiyawa, and the reports of modern archaeologists like Blegen and Korfmann. I can assure you it makes a hell of a lot more sense that Troy is in Asia Minor than in eastern Europe or England. Classicists have covered almost every aspect of the poems, from the vegetation and climate to the places where the "regiments" came from. I'm not asking you to believe it, but get at least a passing familiarity with the evidence before being so skeptical. One place to start is J.V. Luce's book Celebrating Homer's Landscapes, which exhaustively demonstrates how Homer's descriptions of the Troad and Ithaca reflect accurate geographic knowledge of both places.
Also, you might want to stop making elementary errors if you really want to defend Wilkins' "theory." Don't tell us that the Achaeans sail over "Oceanus." They don't come close to it. Don't tell us that Troy is in "eastern europe" when it's in Turkey. That's in Asia, which is a different continent, you know. Don't refer to "regiments," talk about the "Catalog of Ships," the standard way of referring to the list of Greek contingents in Book 2.
If you'd really like to convince us, instead of going on and on about how we're close-minded, try presenting some of Wilkins' arguments--in detail. Why don't you start with how he deals with the Hittite letters? Akhilleus 20:00, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

First of all, the notion that ancient nations and societies were limited geographically to such small areas is rediculous. Most of Europe spoke Greek, including druids all the way in Ireland, because Greek influence and knowledge had spread much further than Greece. Conquest is not the only thing that spreads culture. Everyone in ancient Europe, regardless of their tribe or nationality, was effected by the Greeks substantially. The druids of Britannia would not have spoke Greek if they had not thought it an important language. Homer's epic clearly spanded across a much larger geography than merely a couple of seas in the Mediterranean, a geography that includes Egypt and Britannia. After all, did the Greeks not prove the world was round and approximately how large it was?

Look at America today. Geographically it is small, and anyone 2000 years from now that finds an intact map will conclude that America was just one of many nations. However, the reality is that America has military bases all of the world, but there is very little that will survive 2000 years from now to prove how powerful a nation America is today. Likewise, the Perians had farflung power all the way into central Europe, but had obviously not conquered Europe. The Franks imported an elephant for the king once, but does that mean that the Franks had to conquer India, or that the Indians had conquered the Franks.

The point is, everyone that was anyone in the ancient world knew of Britannia and its famous tin mines. There is no more evidence to prove that Troy on was England than in Turkey, but scholarly dogma and academic zealots in the name of "concensus" mislead the public all the time for their own ambitions or politcal agendas, which, after all, is human nature. Too many professors are too deeply rooted in Troy-in-Turkey to ever concede to other opinions, no matter how well-researched those opinions may be. There are 7000 year old conical pyramids in the Americas that historians refuse to acknowledge as any older than 2000 yrs, despite those pyramids being enshrouded in lava rock that is dated exactly 7000 years. (I read about this years ago, no online sources to report as yet.)

Troy in England does have some merit, and to simply dismiss it as fantasy is disgraceful to the discovery process. The Celts have legends of visits to Egypt, used as mercenaries by pharaohs, and whom helped to build Karnak. They even have legends of meeting Moses himself. They both certainly had a love of beer. The Britons used chariots, and Boadicea herself refered to Nitocris and Semiramis, the names of Eastern rulers far, far away from Britain. And, for crying out loud, they used chariots! When something is still a theory, as Troy being in Turkey still is, all researched opinions must be considered to find whatever facts can be found. That's how knowledge is acquired, not by saying "Impossible! The consesus is ..." Well, the consesus may be wrong, as has often proven to be the case.

As far as history is concerned, it's mostly speculation and heresay anyway. No one can claim that the Achaeans never were even close to Oceanus. Where you there? Did you attend Achaean bonfire parties and mingle with the natives? Did someone build a time-machine? Well, if the Polynesians could find Easter Island, the Achaeans could find Britannia. Jcchat66 21:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

~This is an absurd topic. To begin with, Homer was not a native Celt. Nowhere is there any proof that ancient greeks were indeed a fair race - they lived in the mediteranean for heavens sake! I merely bring this up because of things people mentioned as arguments in this topic. Also, note the images on walls found - dark haired people. I read that the mention of fair haired people - "xanthein" was not celtic fair - but light brown - which for greeks was as fair as they had seen. Note, also the statues found with original pigments showed people with dark eyes and mediteranean features.

This topic makes me wonder: How do we know whether the Parthenon marbles held in the British Museum will be used in the future to debate as to whether the marbles where ever in Greece to begin with - or whether the Brits were somehow the "original" Greeks? (As hitler ideology falsely once tried to suggest aryans were more greek than the modern day greeks) I merely bring this strange angle up to make the point of bizare discussions triggered by things that may be misinterpreted.

No, I don't believe Troy was in Britain. Why would a mediteranean race claim it as their cultural history of oral story telling if they weren't involved and then place it somewhere where it was not viable for themselves to have been? ApplesnPeaches~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Applesnpeaches (talk • contribs) 00:03, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology of Troy, Troy and Aeoleans

Is possible that the Trojans of Homer were Aeoleans (a Greek tribe)?

Etymologically, the words Ilion, Ilus, Iliad, Aeolians, Aeolus, Hellenes, Helle, Hellespont are having the same origin/root.

Later, in 9th , 8th , 7th centuries B.C., Aeolians founded colonies in north-western Asia Minor (or Anatolia). Why not, plus, in 14th or 13th century B.C., when they were drove out of Thessaly by Achaeans etc?

In Homer's Iliad Greeks and Tojans communicated without interpreters.

In Iliad, instead, Carians (a people in south-eastern Anatolia) described as "hetero-glosi" (i.e. people of other language)".

So, perhaps, original Trojans were Teucrians (i.e. Thracians) and in 13th century B.C., when Troy was captured by Aeolians, then its name was changed to "Aeolium" (ie. Ilium = Ilion). Parallely with city-state, the neighbouring channel was named "Hellespont".

So, in Trojan War era, i.e. in 12th century, the city had two names ("Troy", of Thracian origin and Ilium, of Graeco-Aeolian origin).

--Ionn-Korr 16:53, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

If we are into etymologies, someone has proposed a connection with Basque hiri/uri ("city"/"town"), Iruñea (Pamplona) and Ilunberri (Lumbier, "new Ilun", "new capital?"))
Is there connection in Hellenes, Helen, Selene?
--Error 00:55, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
If these theories are accepted by serious scholars, that should be reported here -- with full bibliographic information. Even if they are widespread beliefs, they probably should be reported here (with information to help the reader judge their value). But Wikipedia is not a good place to discuss novel or speculative theories. --Macrakis 01:29, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
To Macrakis.
I saw your page. You are a Greek. I'm glad for it. Greeks are here, there and everywhere! Greetings for you, "sympatriotis". --IonnKorr 18:34, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
From Helen:
the name may then be from a PIE root *sel "to elope" and go back to a Proto-Indo-European abduction myth. The name is in any case unrelated to Hellenes, as is sometimes claimed (Hellenes being from the root *sed "settle").
--Error 00:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
To Error.
Surely, your proposal (or your viewpoint) is respectable. But, "Hellenes being from root *sed" is an extreme case. Perhaps, it's a atribraty conclusion.
This IE-root may be *hel-, or *el-, or *sel-, [or even *wel- (according to my opinion)], but not *sed-.
--IonnKorr 20:56, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
what do you mean? Hellenes is from *sedlenes "settlers", that's entirely unproblematical and about the only serious etymology listed on this page. And no, Helene is unrelated. I am responsible for Helen_of_Troy#Etymology. The sel- etymology (and the Saranyu connection) is debatable, but a serious and published possibility, but of course without the certainty of the sedlenes etymology of Hellenes. dab (ᛏ) 14:57, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Please keep your opinion out of this. Original Research has no place in wikipedia. Stick to information from citable references. --Victim of signature fascism 19:03, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't know what's up with the changes between User:Decius and User:Alexander007 (who appear to be the same person), but I do know that Wikipedia frowns on removal of other users' comments except in cases of libel or abuse. You are right that original research has no place on Wikipedia. Neither does rudeness or attempted censorship. We can all decide the value of a comment on our own. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:40, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] a "pellasgian" theory

My five cents:

Bekim Bacaj

If you read, than do it more carefully. The whole book of R.S.Price is based on the same reading error. His error question:"How could one see the arising sun from the Ocean if situated in Troy?"

1st Let us first clear this error. The Ocean is not an ocean. It's a Snake!

2nd Homer is not greek, -he is pellasgian Priest and a distant relative to Achiles.

3rd and the most repeated error throughuot the literal history, -there were no greeks during the Trojan War era.


I Ocean is a mythical snake (pellasgian mythology), it's not an ocean, its a river. The hypothetical river that encompases the whole world, = the edge of the world. The snake that bites its own tail. So the sun according to pellasgian mythology rises from the Ocean river and olso sets down on it.

II Homer was a pellasgian, his wocabulary and his beliefs are pellasgian, Achiles was a pellasgian too. Whole Iliad is focused only in the part where Achiles is the main actor. So nothing else matters to the author except of his relative and his compatriot antagonist Hector.

III It was pelasgians that were known as Helens and it was them who named the land (H)ellada. Greeks enter the Hellen mainland only after the destruction of Troy that is the center of the world civilisation destruction and the begginings of a "greek dark ages". It was almost the same duration period as of our dark ages. More than 7 centuries. No written materials exist douring this peroid. It took seven centuries for greeks to come out of the darknes and aquire whatever was saved from this destruction. The interest for adopting and cultivating pre greek culture was driven by the Persian kingdom rise and their warfares. It was only a question of time when persian army will attack the greek city states. So they begin cultivating history and pregreek cultural remnants of Hellen mainlands adopting them as their own and for their purpose. Only then the story of Trojan War has come to life again. So it was a Political and moral reason. It was adopted and revised. It recieved more critics than any other written piece today by homerians. But that didn't stop it. They had to convince the people that they won a war against this mighty land once and that they can do it again. They achieved it. Today we only have a reforged story of Homer about Iliad and an incomplete one. Yet again, it's a remarkable one.

Thank You!


I'm with you as far as The whole book of R.S.Price is based on the same reading error. His error question:"How could one see the arising sun from the Ocean if situated in Troy?". That's entirely true of course. dab (ᛏ) 09:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notability of Wilkens, Velikovsky, et al.

Wilkens and Velikovsky are not notable, in my opinion. They don't belong in the article, nor do any other "alternative" location theories. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree — however, given the nature of Wikipedia, should we have a short sentence acknowledging that a few cranks opinionated individuals do argue for alternative locations, but are roundly dismissed by academic scholars? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:07, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

That would be prudent, considering the wide range of Wikipedia's audience. --Akhilleus (talk) 07:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it should be included, given the nature of Wikipedia. --Siva1979Talk to me 20:34, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
The article currently says, "A small minority of contemporary scholars argue that Homeric Troy was not in Anatolia, but located elsewhere: England, Croatia, and Scandinavia have been proposed. These theories have not been accepted by mainstream scholars." I think that's sufficient — do you disagree? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Troy and England

No, I'm not talking about Wilkins' crackpot theory. I'm talking about this text that I'm removing from the article:

A Trojan law mentioned by E.O. Gordon allowed queens as well as kings. This law was adopted by King Dunvallo Molmutius (from Brutus) in his code and is still in effect today in Britain.

This is inadequately sourced, and it was in the wrong place in the article. But there's certainly room on Wikipedia for the legendary connections between the Trojan kings and the kings of England. As long as we make it clear that there's no historical basis for this connection. So, if someone can provide some good sources for this material, let's put it in. --Akhilleus (talk) 07:46, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

the thing is mentioned on British Israelism, but I don't know if it has its proper article. We should discuss it in the context of the Aeneid, maybe add a "later legends" section. dab (ᛏ) 09:02, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pro-Wilkens enthusiasm

User:212.123.163.102 left multiple copies of the following comments all over the page. In the interest of not silencing anyone, I'm going to consolidate them and put them here:

You are all wrong! Iman Wilkens is right on the money, Celts and troy are english, and the locations that Wilkens has described in his book, are almost spot on, some minor variations, but almost a perfect deduction of the real truth of troy.
Why do I say this? how do I come to this conclusion?
I have been a Royal Navy Diver most of my Adult life, and have been on salvage operations and deep sea dives all around the world, and always liked to read books by other like minded of the diving fraternity as a way of passing time when on board ship etc.
After reading Cusslers book, I was intrigued enough to convince a friend who is also an ex navy diver, to go and follow the trail described in Iman Wilkens book.
Its taken us over 2 years of research and diving, but we have located artifacts and evidence that prooves beyond doubt, that what Wilkens has written, is in fact, a very good account of the real Troy and the voyages.
Troy was in England, not Turkey or Croatia or anywhere else, and the Greeks are pretenders to the titles given by historians.
We have enough evidence now, and shall soon be approaching media and other interested parties, to announce these findings.
What we have discovered will blow the history books into confusion, and will make the Da Vinci Code look like a childs story book!
keep your eyes on the press!
regards
loz and mike —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.123.163.102 (talk • contribs) .
Re:Questionable etymologies?
Homer catalog of ships and western europe a.d. 2006
Denmark: graea, now graerup; hyle, now hyllebjerg; thisbe, now thisted; arne, now arna; scandeia, now skanderborg; nisa, now nissum;
France: orneia, now orne; corinthe, now courances (corintia in middle-ages!); cleonae, now cleon; gonoëssa, now gonesse; helice, now elyseé; thronium, now trugny (trun in 1059); tiryns, now thury-harcourt (tirins in middle-ages!); hermione, now hermanville; river aurus, now aure; hyampolis, now Janville (hiemivilla in 1130); aetole, now etaules; pleuron, now ploëron; nile, now -nil (for example: mesnil);
Alsace: cyllene, now selé(stat); rhipa, ribeauville; stratia, now strasbourg; parrhasia, now barr;
Spain: pylos, now pilas; gerenia, now gerena; sparta, now esparteros; sidon, now medina sidonia; ortygia, now ortigueira;
Low countries: thessalia, now tessel; alos, now alost; boudeion, now boudinkerke; phulake, now flakkee; pyrasos, now braassem; iton, now etten; antron (near the sea), now antwerp; calydne, now calland; sume, now sumar;
Great Britain: adrasteia, now ardrossan; percote, now perth; practius, now pratis; axius, now axe; cromna, now cromarty; aegialus, now aigas; erythini, now ericht; halizones, now halezy; halube, now halabezack; maeones, now meon; hyde, now hyden hill; temese, now thames (temes in middle-ages); kaystrios, now caister; rhesos, now rhee; karesos, now car dike; grenikos, now granta; skamandros, now cam; simoeis, now great ouse; satnioeis, now little ouse; tenedos, isle of thanet (tanatus in ancient latin); lecton, now lexden; chryse, now grays, cray and crayford; cilla, now chilham; "silver bow", now the bow and silvertown; ilion, now ely. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.123.163.102 (talk • contribs) .

Wilkens is the guy that wrote: "It also appears that Homer's Greek contains a large number of loan words from western European languages, relatively more often from Dutch rather than English, French or German." How crackpot can you get? Loanwords from languages that didn't exist? His etymologies are nonsense. Then there's the archaeological evidence: Homer's description of boat-building is the oldest such description and was long rejected as it was felt that it referred to boat building in Homer's time. More recent research shows that it does describe how the Greeks built ships at that time. [1]

Michael Wood[2] refers to several artefacts described by Homer:

1. The tower-shaped body shield associated with the character Ajax and found on the Thera frescoes (and obsolete by the time of the Trojan War. 2. The figure-of-eight shield found on various 13th century frescoes, eg at Knossos, Mycenae and Tiryns. 3. The silver-studded sword, known from 15th and 16th century finds. 4. Leg greaves found in Bronze age tombs, but not in Iron Age ones. 5. The boar's-tusk helmet - numerous representations and a full example from Knossos -- Homer's description was very good, even telling how the tusks are laid in rows with the curves alternating. 6, Nestor's Cup -- a cup matching Homer's description was excavated by Heinrich Schliemann Nestor's Cup And of course there the geological evidence from Kraft et al. The mailing list Where Troy Once Stood was set up to look at Wilkens work, and decisively demolishes it.--Dougweller (talk) 13:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Troy a Minoan city?

Troy is settled from about 3000 BC. The Trojan War is apperently 1180s BC when Myceanian Greeks attack the Trojans. The argument is that the "Trojan Greeks" appearently has the hegemony of local trade in this region. At East the Hittie Empire flourish but apperently they live in peace with Trojans.

The Minoan Civilization dissapear as the Myceanian Civilization emerge. However, the distinction is only beteen the island greeks and mainland greeks who has a lot of the same culture, in which the myceanians are controlled by the Minoans. Could it be the case that Trojans were apart of the Minoan Trade Federation, and as Myceanians conquered Crete after it has disasters and Santorini was destroyed by vulvano Thera leading to the dissaperence of the Minoans, the Mainland Greeks either assimilated or exterminated any opposition from Minoans.

As it would seem Troy may have been a Minoan City part of the Minoan Trade Federation. Once the Minoan Civilization collapse and falls into the hands of the mainland Greeks who takes control over the trade in the Ageanian Region, then Trojans still constitutes an obstical as they threathen mainland Greek trade supremacy, enforcing tolls etc on the Greek Traders. Agamenon needs to finish of the Trojans in order to wipe out the last Minoans. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.165.42.243 (talk • contribs) 13:45, September 13, 2006 (UTC)

This is an interesting suggestion, but if you want any of this to be included in the article you're going to have to provide a reliable source. Otherwise it's original research, which is forbidden on Wikipedia. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that no Linear A (Minoan) inscriptions have ever been found in Troy. There is no evidence that Troy was a Minoan settlement. Darkmind1970 11:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
That's right. The only prehistoric writing so far found at Troy is a seal in Luwian. See Trojan language. Andrew Dalby 17:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coordinates of Troy Archeological Site

Does anybody have a reference for the (very inexact) coordinates of (39°58′N 26°13′E)? I'm asking because I've checked those coordinates in Google Earth, but nothing there looks like Troy. But nearby there's a very blurry spot that resembles Troy at ( 39°57′24″N, 26°14′20″E). I don't think the coordinates listed in the article are right. -- MiguelMunoz 19:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you to whoever corrected the coordinates on the site. They now appear to be correct. -- MiguelMunoz 21:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] World Heritage Logo

The World Heritage logo is the first thing in the article - it should be moved somewhere more discreet. Patiwat 11:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. --Moonraker88 12:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ilium

This article states (in its first footnote) that Ilium was the usual Latin name for Troy, whilst Troia was a poetic name. Is there a source for this? as it appears to be contradicted by Lewis & Short's Latin Dictionary, which described Ilium as a poetic term! ( http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3D%2321459 ). -86.138.104.32 21:20, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trojan war, which layer?

Troy VI: 17th – 15th centuries BC. Troy VIh: late Bronze Age, 14th century BC Troy VIIa: ca. 1300 – 1190 BC, most likely candidate for Homeric Troy.

Are the above dating of the layers correct or accurate?

According to Michael Wood's In Search of Trojan War, he proposed the so-called Trojan War should be happened at Troy VI rather than Troy VIIa. Wilusa(Troy) was sacked in around 1250BC. It's leveled again by a Greek king.

Around 80 years later, it was sacked by sea peoples in 1180BC which was shown in Troy IIa.

Carl Blegen suggested Troy VIIa was destroyed by earthquake but Wood doubted it because it's difficult to distinguish a city after earthquake in archaeological basis or Troy VI was sacked and earthquake happened very closely.

One evidence in Troy VIIa, pottery with distintive spiral pattern (L.H.III C) which only produced after 1200BC and never appeared earlier.Philip HK 05:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The controversial beaches of Troy

As I look at the picture purporting to be the beaches on which the Greek ships were drawn up, warning flags go up in my mind. The Greek ships were placed over the brow of a low hill on which the Trojans camped that night of the counterattack. The Greeks built a wall and a ditch to keep them out. In this picture there would have been no need of any wall because the Trojans and chariots would have tumbled down end over end and broken their necks all.

Well, all right, if you magnify the picture you see a flatter place near a point over the hill. I believe that place, if that is where it is, is questioned now. Various battlefield topography questions, such as how Troy can have been on a headland, and where was the harbor that must have sheltered Trojan ships from the strong Bosphorus currents (otherwise why would you dare to site Troy there) I believe have been more or less settled by geologic analysis. There WAS a bay there, and Troy WAS on a headland, and all that fine plain you see stretching to the sea was mainly the bay, which has silted in, rendering Troy useless for the purpose for which it was built. And so, that is why it was abandoned, and not for Greeks. It was rebuilt many times as long as there was a point to rebuilding it. Istanbul now has the strategic control once held by Troy. You would rebuild Istanbul but you would never again build at Troy, unless as a tourist town.

So, the Greek ships were inside the bay mostly on a beach long silted over. You can't get a picture of it. The plain on which they all fought was further south. I have put (or will put) in the external links a link to a site with a map reconstructing the terrain of Troy. Read Michael Grant, though, In Search of Troy. What you want to do about this I have no idea. Taking on this article is a big and thankless task. Right now I'm doing other stuff.Dave 22:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I changed the caption of the picture, which may go some distance to answer your concerns. There are a couple of issues with determining the location of the Achaean camp. One, of course, is that there may not have been a historical Trojan War; another is that many locations have been proposed, and you can still find people advocating one or another. The geological work you mention has pretty conclusively shown that Troy had a bay in the Bronze Age, and that's the most likely location for where the Achaeans placed their ships; but there's never universal agreement on questions like this. Another book to read on this question is J.V. Luce, Celebrating Homer's Landscapes. Luce participated in the geological survery, I think--at least he takes it into account in his book. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Troy in Finland

There is a theory in the internet, that speaks of Troy in Finland. It fits with the geographic descriptions of Homer.
http://www.estovest.net/letture/homerbaltic.html
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=troy+baltic+sea

[edit] "Panomphaean Zeus"

"The altar of Panomphaean (‘source of all oracles’) was dedicated to Jupiter the Thunderer (Tonatus) near Troy.)' This single obscure epithet in Iliad doesn't contribute any understanding of an aspect of Troy, certainly not its topography, and Juppiter Tonatus is even less relevant to Troy. The article is refreshed by being disburdened.--Wetman 06:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

What about Thymbraean Apollo? --Peter cohen 19:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

If Thymbraean Apollo increases the reader's understanding of Troy, relate him to the subject and include him. --Wetman 01:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] disambiguation page?

I went to the disambiguation page and it seems like there are so many cities, towns, words, concepts, etc. that involve the word Troy that the disambiguation page should be the first result for people searching "Troy", not the ancient city's page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MartinDuffy (talk • contribs) 23:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, perhaps the reader should be directed to Troy, New York, a place which certainly looms larger on some cultural horizons. --Wetman (talk) 04:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm with Wetman on this one. Are any of those other places even remotely as important? Why do you think they are called Troy in the first place? The disambiguation page for Berlin lists 24 North American places of that name, but nobody in their right mind would dream of making a simple name search lead there and not to the German capital. athinaios (talk) 13:29, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Agree with having the place in Ionia come up first. Student7 (talk) 20:01, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually, it's not in Ionia. But of course ancient Troy should be the main page. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:02, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
(the one in the Eastern Hemisphere?  :) Student7 (talk) 20:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Easiest just to say Asia Minor, I suppose. Or "modern-day Turkey". --Akhilleus (talk) 20:19, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Aeneid?

Shouldn't we say that Romans descended from Trojans? I heard that a new DNA study found that similarities between aegean area and central Italy? and that etruskans might had spoken a form of semitic language?tartan 07:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dariusthefirst (talk • contribs)

What are your sources? We can't even discuss these ideas unless you can cite {{WP:RS|reliable sources]] for them. -- Donald Albury 14:27, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Seems to be the study abtracted here: Proc Biol Sci. 2007 Feb 13; : 17301019. What it's actually claiming is a link between the Etruscans- modern Tuscans (not the Romans as such) and the eastern Mediterranean area (not Troy). David Trochos (talk) 23:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
And that theory (or something like it, with the ancestors of the Etruscans migrating from southeastern Anatolia, i.e., Lydia) has been around for a while (since Herodotus, it seems). Only the DNA findings are modern. The relationship of Etruscan to the Semitic languages is more or less dismissed in Etruscan language. -- Donald Albury 00:38, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
And since Rome as a nation and Empire started in Rome and then spread by conquering surrounding areas, and Rome is not in Tuscany, an Etruscan origin seems unlikely. As for the language, The Etruscan Language An Introduction by Giuliano Bonfante and Larissa Bonfante seems to be a key work and states that it differs in structure from any known language. I'm unhappy anyway about using 'Trojan' in that way.--Dougweller (talk) 07:38, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
The subsection on Troy in Later Legend does discuss Troy's connection with foundation myths including those of Rome and England.--Peter cohen (talk) 14:53, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Troy VI the actual source of Troy VIIa's walls?

My first post on wikipedia so bear with me:

I was just reading Andrew Dalby's "Rediscovering Homer" as well as Barry Powell's "Homer". Both these text claimed that the impressive walls described and actually pictured in the article were constructed during Troy VI and after the earthquake only partially rebuilt by the residents of a smaller Troy VII. It seems like the article should give more info on Troy VI and perhaps credit the pictured walls to that period.

Once I become more familiar with Wikipedia's system, maybe i'll reread those passages and make the changes myself--in the meantime I would welcome any comment or corroboration of this info.

Durandal211 (talk) 14:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeh, yeh. The Troy VI theory shares the limelight with the Troy VIIa theory. Blegen and all the Cincinnati scholars supported VIIa. Each new scholar who writes about these theories gets all the credit. For Troy VI Wood's In Search of the Trojan War used to be popular. There is seldom anything new in this field and the same arguments keep popping up over and over in every successive book and each author is regarded as avant-gard invalidating everything that went before, an idea formed from the concept of technological progress. All they are doing is rehashing the same stuff. The most significant new thing I have heard in forty years is the discovery that Schliemann's and Blegen's Troy was only the citadel, as part of the city circuit wall was discovered about where it should have been. It was long suspected and long overdue. That was from Cincinnati. So I would say, sure, sounds like a great Wikipedia project - you don't have that much space - and someone should give Troy VI equal time. But, you must be careful not to misrepresent Dalby as giving us anything new and not to imply that the VI theory is more up-to-date and represents any sort of progress. In this field the ideas that seem new and fresh are often 200 years old and the best works were done, I would say, long before the birth of the current round of authors. It's a trick of presentation - you always present them as the latest thing. There is no latest thing here except maybe once in a while a small archaeological discovery that no one notices or thinks in important. One word - if you are going to get into Troy VI vs Troy VIIa be sure to cover the date question.Dave (talk) 05:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


Normally I hate many sequential changes to an article, but I particularly appreciated the sequence by Botteville/Dave. He told me what he was doing. Then he carefully edit summarized each change so I knew exactly what he was up to and why. Almost a classic demonstration of how to make a major edit to an important article. Thanks for walking me through that! Student7 (talk) 19:01, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Avoidance of chaos

I was just re-reading this article to see if I could help and the first thing I noticed is that "Homeric Troy" and "Homeric Ilios and Historical Wilusa" are on the same subject. Moreover, the latter section mentioned is nearly word-for-word the same as another article probably spun off from it on the historicity of the Iliad. Well, articles within articles do not appeal to me much and seem like a waste of space. I think the creator of the other article may have meant a move but succeeded only in a duplication, so I am going to finish that up for him. Now "Homeric Troy" has been there for a while and contains some facts but the other was obviously tacked on afterward. I don't think we need it even in abbreviated form as all the material is covered above or elsewhere. Moreover the add-on is full of weasel words, generalites, and is unsubstantiated by any refs. If that pulls any chains I do apologize. It needs to be taken on but right now I would like to improve THIS article so I defer that one. The material isn't going away; if you want to work on it just go to the article and do so. So, nobody get excited by my next changes as they are really only those of outline and arrangement.Dave (talk) 05:23, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Illustrations

I've moved things around so that the images are relevant to the section of text close to them and changed some sizes. Size and positioning looks reasonable on my machine. However, I'll be interested in how it looks on other people's screens.--Peter cohen (talk) 15:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

They look ok on mine, but the Cassandra picture is a bit overwhelming! I'm frustrated, earlier today I read something about Troia being agreed as the 'official' name to use but can't find it now!--Doug Weller (talk) 16:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the changes since my last edit are generally improvements. The oen thing I might change now is to swap the picture of the horse with the Troy II ramp one at the top. Troy II isn't legendary but it is something tourists see. What do people think?--Peter cohen (talk) 11:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I've tried an alternative move (and a couple of resizes). David Trochos (talk) 23:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Where Troy Once Stood

This famous book has indeed "not been accepted by mainstream scholars" but this doesn't seem to justify deleting its use as the only reference when its argument is discussed in the article. An unsummarized edit has replaced the neutral-toned original sentence with "Various fringe writers argue that Homeric Troy was not in Anatolia, but located elsewhere: England, Croatia, Scandinavia -and pretty much every imaginable place-". Would editors consider giving us the original version back, please? --Old Moonraker (talk) 15:36, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

No more famous than the other books on other locations. 'Fringe' is perfectly correct, but I don't like the 'pretty much...' so I'll do something about that. I should point out that these things work both ways, there are no critical reviews of Wilkens' book because serious scholars have better things to do, so the book's article is mainly pro-Wilkens. --Doug Weller (talk) 16:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I've put the reference back as well. The deciding factor for me was that it does have it's own WP article. I hope that's OK. --Old Moonraker (talk) 16:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Afterthought: perhaps I meant famous in the sense of "famously hilarious", but notorious is probably too strong.--Old Moonraker (talk) 16:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
You really should not mark things like that as Minor edits, a minor edit is a copyedit, spelling, typo, etc. Doug Weller (talk) 16:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Apologies: that was out of order. It wasn't intended though—I seem to have been conducting this whole edit on automatic. I was originally going to leave it for a couple of days! --Old Moonraker (talk) 16:54, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Why did you choose "England, Croatia and Scandinavia" as the "alternative" locations? I've seen websites that believe Troy was in Albania, Italy and so on; should I add those, too? The fringiness is of the one author per alternative theory magnitude so why shouldn't we clearly mention it? 3rdAlcove (talk) 18:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

this isn't the place to list this sort of marginal fringecruft. We may be forced to mention "almost" academic fringe like Schrott's "hypothesis" that Troy was in Cilicia, but that's already stretching things. Schrott's theory is idiotic, but it was at least refuted by some annoyed scholars. --dab (𒁳) 18:43, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

This could be a place where alternative views are not just deleted, because there's no proof beyond any doubt about this location. Over 2500 years of tunnelvision regarding the origins of Iliad and Odyssey should be reconsidered.--Antiphus (talk) 12:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
They certainly do not need mentioning in the lead. Perhaps lower down the article.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Would it fit into "Troy in later legend"? Some of the claims there are beyond the fringe of the fringe theories! --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:47, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
It's certainly a possibility.--Peter cohen (talk) 14:12, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Why not in the lead? This article goes on and on about a site in Turkey without proving the historicity of the location. This discussion about the location is not important enough for the lead? --77.249.34.13 (talk) 15:00, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not about proving anything. It is about basing things on WP:reliable sources such as the writings of academics and the discussions of their work in secondary sources such as textbooks. If you can some up with a serious article by a professor of archeology arguing that Troy was on Mars with discussions in university ancient history textbooks, then it is worth giving space to it. If there is no such high-quality literature, on a par with the evidence of Troy being in the Hittite sphere of influence recovered from ancient texts, then it does not merit a mention, particularly in the lead. --Peter cohen (talk) 15:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC) (Ps please thread your comments better using indentation clearly and not disrupting the threading of other comments. I've had to move you comment to clarify things.)
Wilkens' book is pretty bad. I've done quite a bit of work on it, others have visited some of his claimed locations, he talks about 3000 year old versions of English, Dutch, etc. On the other hand, I wonder if the IP editor above has read this [2] (sorry, forgot to sign) Doug Weller (talk) 03:47, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

None of the alternative locations are notable (in the Wikipedia sense), and shouldn't be in the lead. I don't have a real problem with them being mentioned somewhere in the body of the article, but policy would support removing them entirely. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Look at WP:DUE. The Schrott hypothesis may deserve a brief mention under "alternative hypotheses" or something, because it got some mainstream media attention. Every other "alternative hypothesis" will need to be reviewed, and if and only if it received some academic or mainstream media attention, we can mention it. Where Troy Once Stood based on the information in the article would definitely not qualify. It apperas to have been completely ignored by academia. In fact, I must ask myself whether the article on the book itself passes Wikipedia notability guideline: it does not appear to be based on any notable independent third party sources. The "Troy was in England" thing is a complete non-starter, and I don't know why we are even discussing the thing here. dab (𒁳) 21:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The standard for inclusion in an article is lower than the standard for being the subject of an article: see WP:NNC. I don't think the long-standing, but brief, paragraph survived in the article because any editor believes in it (do they?) but because it's a theory about Troy in wide circulation. The existence of the theory has, I believe, achieved sufficient fame in some circles (and notoriety in others) to warrant inclusion. It seems to me to have a parallel with the stories of the kings of Wales being descended from Aeneas, taken up by Geoffrey of Monmouth and so into Shakespeare's histories. The heavily qualifying phrases, such "have not been accepted by mainstream scholars", or something even stronger (I believe "lunatic fringe" was once deleted as too strong, but a more encyclopaedic way of saying the same thing could be found) should of course be attached. If it remains, it could join the other wild accounts at "Troy in later legend". --Old Moonraker (talk) 22:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
this is precisely the question: is this thing "in wide circulation"? Has it "acquired fame", and if so, in which "circles"? It has some dubious fame on-wiki, because there was some trolling about including it in the past. If you can show this has any "fame" in mainstream media, anywhere, fine, but as of now the Where Troy Once Stood article does not appear to substantiate your claim. dab (𒁳) 22:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, I do need to demonstrate the "circles" to make the point properly. In the meantime, it's made it into Fortean Times, if that counts for anything! Old Moonraker (talk) 23:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
The Fortean Times article in question is here. The article makes it clear that the author has never read Plato nor Thucydides: he thinks they believed Troy wasn't in Asia Minor! --Akhilleus (talk) 23:15, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Mainstream author Tom Holland recommends Wilkens (briefly and with only a slight hint of mockery) in "Building a library" for The Independent newspaper [3]. I had high hopes when I found a Googlehit in the Times Literary Supplement, but it turned out to be a reader comment, rather than editorial material. WTOS is on the student reading list for the classics course at Haverford College, as a "dissenting view". Book Business magazine and BookFinder.com lists the work as number four in their respective lists of requested second-hand books [4], but the latest information is dated 2005. On the whole, I have to acknowledge that Wilkens has made but a small impact in the world outside of Wikipedia. --Old Moonraker (talk) 00:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Why do you care so much to get this mentioned? The thing was covered in the Fortean Times, and mentioned in passing in an Independent column. I really don't think this counts for anything in a topic as vast as Troy: the literature on Troy compiled over two millennia of scholarship would fill libraries. Proportionally, Wilkens would have made a greater impact on the collected issues of the Fortean Times than on the body of literature concerning Troy. This is a tragedy quite typical of Wikipedia: many brilliant scholars of great merit go unmentioned because editors prefer to distract themselves over completely marginal red herrings. dab (𒁳) 11:25, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

All the above points are valid. The answer to Dbachmann's question is my perception of a parallel to the equally fanciful, but culturally very significant, folk myth of Brutus-son-of-Aeneas tale, above. Normally I would be in favour of trimming out all possible cruft from an article! --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
well, the Brutus legend is notable by virtue of being medieval. If there was a medieval legend of Troy being in England we should mention it. Alas Mr. Wilkens was born too late for this. Medieval literature is medieval literature, not "cruft". dab (𒁳) 13:45, 30 May 2008 (UTC)