Talk:Troy (film)

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Contents

[edit] Historical accuracy

I have changed the title of the subsection from "Historical Accuracy" to "Deviations from Homer's version of the myth" since the former is misleading; there is no "historical" accuracy for a legendary tale, just different versions of the myth. The actual events regarding the archaeological remains associated with the myths in Iliad are extremely uncertain at best. See for example [1] - kostas

What that misses is the section also discusses how accurate the movie was to what life and war may have been like in the time of the Trojan war. So your new title obscures that. Perhaps those parts should be split into separate sections. Historical accuracy and "Deviations from Homer's version of the myth"
I feel the change is in place. I've added your explanation to the article. If enough information is gathered, you can always add an additional section. Spikeballs 19:01, May 6, 2005 (UTC)
Of course the change is in place. It was changed and has not been reverted. That says nothing about whether it is correct or not. All you're doing is changing the meaning of what was there and changing the heading to go along with that. The beginning paragraph and the end paragraph about the gods could be seen as assessing the historical accuracy of the film. Well at least they used to. See this diff from only about two months ago. - Taxman 13:34, May 7, 2005 (UTC)
I see what you mean. I feel this was a natural evolution of the section, though.
How about "Historical Accuracy and Comparision to other Versions" for a section title? Or something of the sort, anyway. Spikeballs 14:10, May 7, 2005 (UTC)
Taxman what do you mean "The beginning paragraph and the end paragraph about the gods could be seen as assessing the historical accuracy of the film"? I've looked at the history and found nothing of that discusses or ever discussed anything regarding the historical accuracy of the film. You don't seriously believe that there were gods intervening in some wars at the Aegean that were taking place around 1300 bc? The difference is simply that in Homer's version of a myth (that could possibly be based on oral tradition of some events that did actually take place, of which however there is scarce archaeological evidence) the gods had a central role, while in the movie their existense in only implied. Again, look at the reference I gave above to see what I mean. - kostas
I changed "no historical accuracy" to "very little if any historical accuracy", since although it hasnt been conclusivley proven it is likely that the Iliad had its orgins in reality, but the degree that this is true is unknown- hence the ambiguity in the edited statement.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 07:48, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

There seem to be several discrepancies between the disputed facts in this article and the mythology in the Achilles article. For example in the Achilles article it clearly says that in one version of the story Hector killed Patroclus thinking he was Achilles, in this article there was a sentence saying that he knew it wasn't Achilles when he killed him. I removed this sentence because i remember it from the Illiad, however there are several other disputed facts that I saw in some of the other greek mythology articles. I am hesitant to delete these though because I dont recall those details from the original story.

-- I took out the part about Hector's piety and non-belief in omens as being inaccurate... In the Iliad, Hector does balk at his seer's words, when the Trojans are at the gate of Achaean's camp, the seer sees an eagle with a snake in its talons, but the snake bites and kills the eagle. Anyway, at this point Hector blows off the seer and his omen and says one of the best lines in the Iliad, "Fight for your country, that is the first and only omen!"


[edit] Deviations from Homer's version of the myth

This section makes the articles unreadable. Let's make it three-times-shorter and more to-the-point. Spikeballs 17:39, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

How about organizing them "chronologically" and/or using a side by side comparrisson between the two. I feel that would improve matters. Or it could be divided into additions, omissions, and deviations

Separate article? 129.170.202.34 21:03, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


There are so many lines in this section that read "in mythology", yet there are various sources for these myhts (most notably the Iliad, Odyssey and Aeneid of course). This should be rewritten to include these as refrences, i.e. instead of saying "in mythology..." have it read something along the lines of "in The Aeneid...". This would clarify for people not familiar with these stories, and if they wanted to look into them more, this would provide the opportunity. KurtFF8 05:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Another good source you might want to look at is The Oresteia, though I don't think there's anything here that needs that particular trilogy of plays. Anyway, I changed something which (basically) said patroclus and Achilles were unrelated, because they were 1st cousins once removed ;)--68.32.206.71 23:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

There are a lot of paragraphs beginning with 'in the movie'. I think that this section needs at least a good copy-edit.

Also, would Homer's use of the Greek pantheon be considered 'dei ex machinis'? I think at least some reference should be made to the literary device. -- Sasuke Sarutobi 22:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

This is obscene. The section on deviations is over 2,500 words. The entire entry on the Iliad itself is just over 3,500; the combined comparison sections for all three LotR films is sizably less. This needs some severe abridging. Which has been done. If anyone has a problem, they can say something; this isn't a place to post an essay on all the sundry differences between the Iliad and Troy, and people can read the movie synopsis and the book summary without them both being compressed into one passage.Malichai 02:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] modernization arguements?

Right now this constitutes original research. Add some citations or I will delete 129.170.202.3 08:07, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Music

Article says nothing about music in this movie (tracks? composer?). I`m interested because, in my oppinion, music is (quite often) strikingly simmilar to that from "Enemy at the Gates ", as if it is a variation of the latter: music heared during battles seems as if derived from music heared during the Red Army`s disasterous charge from the beginnning of "Enemy at Gates". Also, several tones heared often in dangerous situations or twists in "Enemy at Gates" (notably when Zaitsev finds Maj. Koning`s cigarette) is often heared in "Troy" as well (also in dangerous situations). Any other oppinions?


Veljko Stevanovich Dec. 28. 2005. 18:45 UTC+1

Ok, so James Horner wrote the music for both films. That explains a lot.
Veljko Stevanovich Jan. 1. 2006. 20:05 UTC+1
James Horner is known for reusing the same melodies and such for many projects. It can be either interesting or frustrating, depends on the user. –ArmadniGeneral (talk • contribs) 20:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


That "danger theme" is always used when James Horner has no more ideas and needs to fill the scene with some music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Surten (talk • contribs) 05:07, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unused Score

About Yared's rejected music, the article says a bootleg copy can be found in the internet. I beg to differ. A friend of mine has a recording from a German studio, with Yared's original score. --200.76.103.98 (talk) 02:03, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Surten

[edit] Neoptolemus

Is the "side-note" about Neoptolemus really necessary? He's not in the movie, and this section seems to take the myths way too literally. Neoptolemus suffers from soap-opera-child syndrome, and I don't think it's useful to try to explain the story logically (especially not here where it's completely irrelevant). Adam Bishop 16:40, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. It is irrelevent mentioning about Neoptolemus as this article concentrates on the film. --Siva1979Talk to me 20:38, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Paris and Hellen ages

It says that Hellen must be a generation younger that Paris, but in one version, Paris sees Hellen in the eyes of Aphrodite and falls in love. This means that Hellen wasn´t a generation younger than Páris. Maybe Achilles were, but not Hellen.

[edit] Plane in film

In the film a plane is spoted I dont have a picture but when Brad Pitt decaps the statue at the temple a plane can be seen over his right shoulder so should this be added as trivia or even be added at all

I'm watching the film right now- pausing and rewinding... there is no plane.

-G

In fact there is no plane in the movie. I too paused and rewinded the movie a lot of time. The plane is only in a photomontage which was repeatedly posted in Internet Alaksandu 02:56, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paragraph removed

I removed this paragraph for the "Deviations" section:

The movie Troy cast a conventially good-looking blond, blue-eyed, fair-skinned German actress in the role of Helen. In mythology, Helen was "the most beautiful woman in the world", and described by the English playwright Christopher Marlowe in Doctor Faustus as "the face that launched a thousand ships." Modern critics snidely quipped that while Helen of the film Troy could have launched 100 ships, she wasn't beautiful enough to launch 1,000.[citation needed]

I think this paragraph is ridiculous, opinionated, and irrelevant. First of all, this is not a difference between the film and the book. It's just someone saying that Helen isn't as beautiful in the movie as they had pictured while reading Homer's poem. Second, what's with that last line? I never read a review of this movie that stated that. It's a line that some random person made up. In any case, this paragraph has no place in this article. Period. 2Pac 23:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with what you said, that paragraph was stupid. Good job. :)

Yoda921 04:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Yoda

I agree with that, too. Spartan198 (talk) 08:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC) Spartan198

[edit] Helen's Beauty

From the changes in this page it looks like there's been a lot of discussion about how beautiful Helen was in the film as opposed to how beautiful she should be, and I think we need to accept that it's a film, she's an actress, none of the actors are really Greek and move on. It's irrelevant that she's German or blond. In particular, I'm referring to the paragraph:

"However, the movie makes a point in a key silent scene on why this Helen (and perhaps the historical one, too) was considered so beautiful. In the scene, after running away with her, Paris is escorting Helen on a chariot through Troy for the first time. Here, there are shots of dark-haired, dark-eyed, tanned-skinned women dominating the features of Troy's female population. The women all look testily on the movie's Helen, perhaps jealous of her different coloring, perhaps upset that war is coming over her."

In the Iliad, Helen is referred to as 'golden', but it's not clear whether this means she's blonde, or if she's wearing a lot of gold, as the Greek women of that age did. In any case, such a loaded discussion of her 'coloring' is a bit dodgy, and I think we're better off not reading into it that much; it's not referred to at all in the film and seems unnecessary here. Unless someone can come up with a compelling argument to keep it, please remove.


Archaic Greek poet Ibycus expressly says that Helen was blond-haired (S 151 Davies)Alaksandu 02:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Homosexual Overtones

The comments re: Patroclus and Achilles being lovers are not exactly accurate. When the story was put on paper around 750 B.C., homosexuality as a social norm wasn't widely practiced. The fact that the Classical Greeks viewed Achilles and Patroclus as lovers reflects an interpretation shaped by the society of the day. Homosexual pairings arose around the 600s in partial response to the sweeping reorganization of the city-state. Those nuances extended to other older myths as well-- Zeus and Ganymede for instance. Achilles also states fairly clearly in the text that he loves Briesis. So yes, while the movie does not follow the true plot of the "Illiad", it's unfair to fault it because Achilles and Patroclus weren't gay. Just some thoughts.Ea10 08:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC) ea10

It's not a faithful reference, but I remember hearing once that with the greeks, it wasn't ill-viewed that a man would have a male lover, and still have a family with a wife and kids. That would explain Achilles and Patroclus' relationship.

The paragraph says that at the beginning of the movie, Achilles is shown sleeping naked with a male and a female, I have seen that section in slow motion, over and over, and I am pretty convinced that its two females he is sleeping with. Anybody else notice that? Saurabh Rahurkar 14:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

It's definitely two women. The Director's Cut clearly shows female anatomy. Spartan198 (talk) 08:39, 4 May 2008 (UTC) Spartan198

[edit] Orlando Bloom and Sean Bean

Does anyone else agree that it should be mentioned somewhere in this article that this is the second time that Orlando Bloom and Sean Beanhave worked together? I would think it's very notable, considering that it was only, what, three or so years since they acted together on The Lord of the Rings, with Sean as Boromir and Orlando as Legolas. Do I have permission to add this? WickedWitchoftheWest 03:24, 04 January 2007

Well it's not necessarily important. In fact, it doesn't seem important at all. However it could be placed under trivia if you felt it needed to be mentioned. Just my opinion.

Yoda921 04:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Yoda

[edit] erm, is this wiki material?

"Achilles wrestles her down and kisses her lustfully while moving his hand down her bare thigh. (He's naked himself.) Achilles and Briseis have sex."

I think the above should be changed to something a little more subtle. Seems like something you'd find on literotica.com ... not that I know anything about that sort of thing :X . --Flvg94 22:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Llamas in the Movie

At the start of minute 34 of the movie there is a scene in a street market where some llamas passing by can be seen. Llamas are animals natural from Peru, a country located in the east central part of South America, and by no means lived in the Midle East at the time of Achilles. Apparently this was a mistake by the movie makers due to their lack of knowledge about these animals.

LAJT


[edit] External links

I would like to add a link to the MythiMedia research project (Bologna University, Italy) http://www.mythimedia.org/. The project explores the presence of Greek mythology in today's culture, and contains an article entitled "Leaves of Homeric Storytelling: Wolfgang Petersen's Troy and Franco Rossi's Odissea" (http://www.mythimedia.org/Leaves_of_Homeric_Storytelling.html) [this is the address that should be linked], by American scholar Martin M. Winkler, who also edited a book on the movie Troy, published by Routledge. The site is written entirely in English Fallingdrapery 00:04, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ajax the Greater

Why is Ajax killed in this movie? It is obviously the big man with the hammer although to my knowledge his name is never mentioned in the film, but old descriptions of the man match the actor in the film. He shouldn't be killed at Troy, does anyone know why the director decided to do so? Mallerd 19:03, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Why not? They didn't get anything else right either. Adam Bishop 19:05, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, they did manage to depict Achilles' insanity well, although that is my opinion. Mallerd 20:34, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Ajax dies at Troy. He falls on his own sword, which is caused by Odysseus not himself being named as Achilles's successor. For obvious reasons, he cannot outlive Achilles only to die later - the whole drama would be spoilt. He did fight with Hector, and I agree that killing him off was a good call. He is named: Achilles speaks to him briefly. Fuzzibloke (talk) 20:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Biased

Doesn't anyone else think this movie is at all biased toward the Greeks? It's so clear! In the sacking of the city, the Greeks are posed as barbarians, but does anyone actually know this happened? Shckleford (24/10/2007)

I agree, but I don't know why. Sorry. But Agamemnon is undeniably a "bad guy" - only Odysseus and Patroclus are "good" Greeks. Fuzzibloke (talk) 20:45, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. If it had been reversed, and the Trojans were sacking Mycenae, they'd have done pretty much the same thing to the Greek populace. It was just the way things worked back then. But, nonetheless, Wikipedia's not a forum. Spartan198 (talk) 08:44, 4 May 2008 (UTC) Spartan198

[edit] Plot

The plot section is already way too long...people keep adding to it, seemingly only for the purpose of turning the Achilles and Briseis section into pornography. The whole section needs pruning. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)