Talk:Trombone

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The repertoire of trombone solo and ensemble literature has grown steadily since its beginnings in the Romantic era,

That's not right. I am currently working on one of many trombone solos from the classical/pre-classical era (this one by Wagenseil). The alto trombone in particular was as virtuosic a solo instrument as any in mid 18th-century Vienna. The tenor trombone was written for in the first half of the 19th century throughout Germany. The existing statement is just untrue.

Also, contrabass trombones can be pitched in G or F, like older bass trombones - and the G bass trombone is still in use in England today. Thechuck

You are, of course correct. If it wasn't 3:30 in the morning, I'd fix it myself. --Jemiller226 07:24, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Could a knowlegeable trombonist mention the positions of the slide, and the in-joke that 8th (?) position actually means that the slide has flown right out and brained the viola section? ;-) -- Tarquin

The trombone has 7 positions. I've never heard of the joke. Most trombonists know exactly how far their slide goes, so they wouldn't make the mistake of getting to "8th" position. It is, however, possible to hurt somebody if you're not careful.

Yeah, I accidentally did that when I was a young trombonist. It was before I had my F attachment trombone (the one with the extra tubing that has the valve), and I had to use 7th position during a rehearsal on a new song we were sightreading. Well, I put it at 7th and nailed this one guy in the head (he had a fro, so it cushioned SOME of it, but it hurt a lot anyways). Then, the next day I launched my slide while we were marching to that same song... I am afraid to say the slide lost when it his the bleachers. Just FYI... don't launch your slide! --Robert P. Cline (Peytonio) 15:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I can relate a story passed on to my big band by one of our guest artistés, I can't exactly recall who. Anyway, another big band had been rehearsing for a gig with a soloist, and one of the trombones managed to lose their slide - so much so it slid under the saxes and ended up between the soloist's feet. He picked it up, turned round and said "This belong to any of you guys?" to which, quick as a whip, the trombonist replied "It's one of the trumpeter's, give it here and I'll pas it back to him..." Rawling 00:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to see an illustration of the positions and one of the parts in the article. PrometheusX303 21:09, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pitch/Transposition

We need to get this clear about the build and pitch of the instrument; I see from the History that it has already been back and forth a couple of times, and it would be a shame if Trombone Pitch Wars (TM) were to ensue.

TO CLEAR UP CONFUSION
I am the one that entered the information about the pitching variances. I was a brass player in a local band, playing mainly trombone, but trumpet and euphonium as well (and I now practice every now and then to not lose my touch). A trombone is a "concert pitched" instrument, which basically means its notes follow those of a piano. If you play a Bb on the trombone and a Bb on a piano, they are the same note. Some people, instead of saying Concert-Pitched trombones (since there are different types), they say trombones in C (meaning concert). Most trumpets are called Bb trumpets because of their pitching. They are not in concert pitch. If they play a C, then the are really playing a Bb if it were on a piano. On a French horn in F, it works the same way. The horn's F note would be the same as playing the Bb 7 semitones below the F on a piano. For Alto and Baritone Saxophones pitched in Eb, (this is kind of weird) their G would be the same as playing the Bb 9 semitones below the G on a piano as well. I admit, my wording was a bit screwed up, but this is what I was trying to get through. Sorry for the confusion. I will most likely re-post the information that was taken off and write it in a more easily understandable comparison. --RPC (Peytonio) 19:39, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The information I recently posted was taken off. It is the same information listed above. And the picture has been changed back to Tenor Trombone in Bb. That is not correct. That is a Concert Instrument, and its title should be Tenor Trombone in C (for concert). I have been trying to clear this up, but it isn't working. I would appreciate feedback on why my information is getting repeatedly taken off. I am also going to post this in the next section because there aren't many replies for this one. Thank you. --Robert P. Cline (Peytonio) 02:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It is not correct to have, as we did till recently:

The standard tenor trombone, pitched in C,

I do know what the writer meant but it just isn't that simple. Sure it plays in C insofar as it is (usually) a non-transposing instrument, but I think the terminology "pitched in" carries with it a more fundemental label about the instrument and how it was built - the length of the tube. If I take a tbn out of the case and play the easiest couple of notes I can, without moving the slide, I'll get Bbs and maybe Fs - a patently B flattish lot of notes. If I want Cs I have to go to 6th position (or maybe 3rd if I try a bit harder!). It just isn't "pitched" in C.

To attempt to work round this I have tried to separate out the built pitch from the way its played by mentioning both. I think this works quite well. If people insist on mentioning only one pitch at that point in the article (given that this is explained better, later) then it should almost certainly be Bb. Nevilley 08:35 Nov 5, 2002 (UTC)

I feel absolutely compelled to fix this discrepancy with, "...is also pitched in a nontransposing B♭." Any mention of C is just plain incorrect apart from the possibility of mentioning that playing a written C produces a sounding C. Sorry, my trombone performance degree is getting the better of me, here. =) --Jemiller226 19:29, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think your solution is a good one, and I've tried to do something similar at key (music) - I'm not sure if these terms are widely used though (an instrument being "built" in a certain key, I mean) and maybe there's a better way. This will certainly do for now, however. --Camembert

Thanks - if a better solution presents itself we can always rethink it all a bit! :) Nev.

This is a good and workable solution. I will be checking with a PhD Music Theory friend about this soon. :) - Psssycho

oh and wrt to Tarquin's bit above, there is a horrendous story doing the rounds at the moment about a trombonist accidentally killing the tpt player in front with the slide! Not really encyclopedic material I hasten to add, but ... blimey! Nevilley 15:22 Nov 23, 2002 (UTC)

Looks like something similar was reported a while ago in the inestimable Weekly World News - see [1]. I remember them printing a story once about a chess player who thought too hard about one of his moves, causing his brain to explode. Reuters they ain't ;) --Camembert

I've had a quick google around just out of curiosity. In English all you find are copies of the same story with the same wording, mostly on humour pages. In German you find nothing at all. Conclusion: great story, but fictitious! :) Nevilley

The article currently says "The tenor trombone has a fundamental note of B♭, which means that it is pitched in concert key, or C key, while other instruments like trumpets and clarinets are pitched in B♭, which means that their fundamental note is a C". I checked the history, and as is stated above, metioning C here is incorrect. It is pitched in the Bb harmonic series, not C. Also, it is doubly incorrect by saying Trumpets' fundamental note is C. The trumpet is also pitched in the Bb harmonic series, the only difference is that they read a C when they are playing a Bb.

Coming back to this from Camembert:

I'm not sure if these terms are widely used though (an instrument being "built" in a certain key, I mean)

It's tricky, isn't it - I mean, I know what it means, but I spend much of my life worrying about these things so I am hardly an impartial judge. I have recently seen your Key article and I think that covers or starts to cover it very well - what has to be got over is the relationship between the physical fact of its length/setup/whatever, and the way we choose to play it. A Bb tpt being built in Bb and yes, dammit, it's about 4'6" long so that's what comes out the end when you blow the accursed thing!!! I am almost sure we've got quite a lot of the right material here, in one place and another. :) Nevilley

It's chewy, as you say, but I don't think we're in too bad shape at the moment. I can't think of a better way of putting it than saying such and such an instrument is built in such and such a key - maybe "a Bb trumpet has a fundamental of Bb" or something? I really don't know though - you don't have to worry about this sort of stuff when you play the fiddle ;) --Camembert

Could someone add something about those bowl things some players use? What exactly are they, and what do they do? CGS 14:08, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC).

I guess you mean mutes. I'll add a mention. --Camembert

I appreciate Peytonio's desire to explain the trombone 'Bb vs. C' issue, but I don't think it needs much more explanation than is currently in the article. This is an area which can very easily become extremely confusing if not explained clearly and logically. Some misconceptions and confusions to avoid:

- Trombones are not 'pitched in C'. They are pitched in Bb with their notes written at concert pitch.

- 'C' does not stand for 'concert', it represents the pitch (note) 'C'.

- There is a separate article on Transposing instruments - no need to explain it here.

- In a nutshell: "As a rule, instruments pitched in keys other than C are transposing instruments. Not so with the tenor trombone; although built basically around the harmonic series of Bb, it sounds as written." - Kent Kennan, "The Technique of Orchestration"

I hope this helps. Special-T 03:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that I worded it rather confusing. It is probably not necessary to explain the transposing "scheme" on here because it could be confusing to others. I was trying to say (in simpler terms) that the trombone (along with the flute, oboe, bassoon, euphonium, and tuba) is a concert-pitched instrument, meaning that what you play is what you hear. A "C" on a trombone sounds like a "C" in actuality. The same goes for every other note played on the instrument. This is why most musical pieces, if distinguishing between different types of trombones, would write "Trombone in C" to distinguish it from a "Bb Trombone." Bb trombone, like Bb trumpet, signifies that the instrument is a transposing one, in that a "C" on a trumpet would sound like a "Bb" 2 semitones below the "C" in actuality (hence the name Bb Trumpet). The French Horn, for instance, is called the Horn in F (most common pitching) because a "C" on it sounds like an "F" 7 semitones below the "C" in actuality (this horn is pitched in fifths from other instruments, in that the "C" is the fifth note of the "F" scale -- F, G, A, Bb, C). It would probably be best if this stay off, I must say, because it gets jumbled up a bit (if you can't already tell). --RPC (Peytonio)

[edit] Why was this removed?

Apropos of what the tbn is like when playing with the plug: "In fact, there are only six real positions available to the player, since the slide is too short for what is now really a trombone in F." Why was this removed? Is it actually wrong?? Thanks, Nevilley 00:03, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

In the absence of any reply to that, I've restored the sentence. It seems odd, as the anonymous editor's other work on the piece seemed sensible. I'd be delighted to discuss it. Nevilley 21:31, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

I checked this on my tenor trombine (a Conn 88) and it's not true. The slide is plenty long enough to reach 7th position when playing in F. So I removed the claim. (Maybe there are trombones with slides that are too short to play in F? But then why would anyone buy such an ill-made instrument?) Gdr 11:35, 2004 Jul 25 (UTC)

The slide stays the same length. With the F attachment enabled, 7th position is a G. PlatinumX 18:34, Jul 25, 2004 (UTC)

The slide stays the same length, but the positions get longer - by a ratio of 4/3. If you work it out, 7th position (B/F#) is off the end of the slide by 10 cm or so, and 6th (C/G) is just about on it, with a little bending of the note down. Either Gdr is bending the note down a long way artificially or s/he is using the incorrect sense given by PlatinumX above. I've restored the sentence - the original was correct.Dave Taylor

As Dave Taylor noted, the 6 positions allowed inside the valve are in different than those outside it. Because "6th position" (C/G) is just on the end of the slide, it is referred to as a flat or lowered 7th position. In a similar manner the 6 positions inside the valve are known relative to the Bb slide positions: 1st, flat 2nd, flat 3rd, 5th, flat 6th, flat 7th, where it is understood that flat 3rd and flat 7th are lowered considerably more than flat 2nd or 6th. I think this may be noteworthy, or at least that there is what is known as a "7th position" inside the trigger, even though it is actually the 6th playable one. Thechuck 09:55, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You're not wrong, but it has always been more useful for me to consider (and teach) that there are more like 5.5 trigger positions, labelled simply T1 through T5 plus a T6 that almost always requires the note to be lipped down in order to be in tune (i.e. the C two leger lines below the bass clef staff in "T6"). I have yet to encounter a model of trombone in which this was not the case, and indeed some seem to require pulling the attachment's tuning slide out in order to get that last note in tune, which, in turn, makes T1 an interesting proposition. =) --Jemiller226 19:08, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The information I recently posted was taken off. It is the same information listed above. And the picture has been changed back to Tenor Trombone in Bb. That is not correct. That is a Concert Instrument, and its title should be Tenor Trombone in C (for concert). I have been trying to clear this up, but it isn't working. I would appreciate feedback on why my information is getting repeatedly taken off. Thank you. --Robert P. Cline (Peytonio) 02:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Time for an organization, methinks?

Check out the flute, clarinet, and saxophone... Those pages are much better organized than this. Reading the trombone wiki, it's pretty disjointed, even just adding headers would probably help quite a bit.

So, I hereby request an update, to be done by someone who has the time and inclination to do so.

A lot more info could be added to the "Playing the Trombone" section. For example, slide position charts, and a discussion of how slurring is different on the trombone than on other brass instruments. Hrothgar137

[edit] started a bit of the reorganization

I added a 'construction' section that completed the previous partial description of the trombone. I took out the bit about the trombone is the French word for paperclip as it seemed a bit to tangential. I will try to get a position chart put together as well as some points that might be useful for composers and arrangers.

I'm back - I have a user id now: Ph11 - In an attempt to make the article more readable for people who don't know (or want to know) that much about trombones in the first place.

how about silver under 'construction'? or are silver trombones only silver plated? --pfunk42 04:15, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

"Silver" trombones have always been silver plated. Silver is far too expensive and soft a metal to use exclusively for building the instrument. Ed_Solomon 15:06, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I play trombone and it is the lightest weight brass instrument. It is very fun to play but requires a lot of cleaning. The Holton trombone by Leblanc works best in my opinion. Adolph 172

[edit] See also...

Why the unilateral removal of a ton of links? At least half of those names weren't jazz trombonists, and no effort was made to differentiate between those who are and those who aren't. *sigh* --Jemiller226 06:17, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Most of them actually where trombonists imho. No names should have gone lost.. Tobias

I'm fairly sure that there are other, more ideal places to put those names, such as list of jazz trombonists or even trombonist. Unless, of course, we were to put the names we wanted to in a sort of history of trombonists, similar to is done at Tennis. MToolen 12:58, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

They also have a section entitled Great players that serves essentially as a list of links, though put into paragraph form. IMO that would've been a better way to handle this than just to dump all those names. To Tobias...they were all trombonists...not really any opinion to it. None of them played anything else as a primary instrument (with the possible exception of Dee Barton, who was a great drummer as well). I don't quite understand what you meant... --Jemiller226 02:02, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Playing range

In a change made recently, the "typical" tenor trombone range was changed from a lower bound of E1 to E2. Not being a trombone expert by any means, I'm reluctant to revert this change. I'm almost positive E1 is within a skilled trombonist's range, though, and the playing range image in the infobox seems to confirm this. --Mcmillin24 21:58, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Technically this is correct. E2 is the lowest note in the range of the straight tenor trombone without including "falset" or "privileged" notes or fundamentals. E1 is a fundamental in seventh position and is not usually considered part of the regular range of the tenor trombone. Ed_Solomon 22:23, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] About Images

I propose an image of a tenor trombone to replace the first image of the Conn 88 which has some copyright issue. I am the one who made this computer graphics Bach Stradivarius trombone model 42 AG after my own trombone.

Tenor trombone with Bb/F trigger

--FlamM 20:41, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I've exchanged the Conn 88H for a generic tenor trombone. Hopefully this will avoid any further copyright issues. Ed_Solomon 22:05, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I've replaced the first image of the trombone with the generic straight tenor trombone photo. This is really the most appropriate way of showing the trombone the first time the reader views the page. Images of other sizes, shapes and valve/slide combinations are further down the page with a simple, straight tenor trombone (the most common variety) first. Ed_Solomon 08:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

The diagram a short distance down the page is incorrect. the slide lock, number 9, is not located where the slide and bell section join, it is just below the mouthpiece. the slide lock prevents the slide from falling off when you dont want it to. i do not know the name of the section that is pointed to by number 9, i dont know if it even has a name, but it is not the slide lock ring. 203.173.2.174 05:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC) michael

[edit] Playing Range

On the top right of the introduction, there is a nice pictorial demonstrating the "Playing Range" of the trombone. The range indicated appears to be double pedal b-flat to super b-flat a remarkable range to be sure and accurate enough for the way it is headed (i.e. "'Playing' Range"). I wanted to point out however that said range is inaccurate, it can be eclipsed in both directions, and is misleading in regards to the nature of brass instruments. The nature of a brass instruments mouthpiece is such that it could concievably produce an immensely wide range of frequencies, given perhaps unnatural and certainly unusual, at least in the case of those who can break either ends of the given range. Not to be misunderstood, I am sure that there is some range which the lips are unable to produce low frequencies given the size of mouthpieces, mouths, trombones, etc. and futhermore some range at which the recquired pressure would immediately destroy lip tissues but still those extremes are not implied by the pictorial. As far as proof, I can think of no recording that demonstrates a double pedal A, but on several albums performed with his big band the Manhattan Wildlife Refuge, Bill Watrous far exceeds a super b-flat. This is my first post of any type on Wikipedia and I certainly have niether the skill nor the want to edit for such a triviality, but I thought that I might point out the fact.

I agree with your statements. The range, for the tenor trombone at least (as illustrated), should be restricted to E1 as the potential lowest note, with the main range from E2 (lowest fundamental) to D5 extending up to F5 as a potential highest note. The range I have quoted is the most realistic. Ed_Solomon 09:48, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Counterpart of trumpet" line not really accurate

Near the beginning of the article, it says : "The most frequently encountered trombones are the tenor and bass counterparts of the trumpet." Presumably this refers to tenor and bass trombone, but: there is such a thing as a bass trumpet, and it is both (a) a better candidate for the title of "bass counterpart of the trumpet," and (b) nothing like a bass trombone. Similarly, a tenor trombone is not really like a tenor trumpet. So I think this line is misleading.

From the New Grove Encyclopaedia of Music:

"A brass lip-reed aerophone with a predominantly cylindrical bore. The most common trombones are the tenor and bass counterparts of the trumpet. In its most familiar form the trombone is characterized by a telescopic slide with which the player varies the length of the tube; hence the term 'slide trombone' (Fr. trombone à coulisse, Ger. Zugposaune, It. trombone a tiro; Fr. and Eng. up to the 18th century, saqueboute, sackbut). Both the Italian and German names for trombone are derived from terms for trumpet: trombone (large trumpet) from the Italian tromba (trumpet), and Posaune from Buzûne, derived in turn from the French buisine (straight trumpet)."

I don't think that there is anything incorrect in what is stated in the New Grove Encyclopaedia of Music or paraphrased in the Wikipedia article on the trombone. A bass trumpet is not technically a bass, but a tenor trumpet anyway. To be categorised as a true bass, the instrument would have to play down to C2, which it cannot. Are we going to re-invent the name of the bass trumpet while we are about it? I think not. It seems sensible to keep the paraphrased wording from the New Grove as this is both accurate and relevant. Ed_Solomon 18:20, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I was just reading the above quotation from Grove's and trying to make sense of the tenor/bass/trumpet sentence. It seems singularly confusing, especially to someone unfamiliar with either instrument. As far as I can tell, it is pointing out that the most common trombones (alto and tenor?) are pitched as a tenor and bass trumpet would be. I am a professional musician/composer/arranger and I'm confused... Pity the unsuspecting neophyte stumbling upon this sentence. Special-T 00:26, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

The most common trombones are the tenor and bass trombones, which do correspond to what is stated in the New Grove. I can't see how that is misleading. In orchestral terms, the trumpet is a soprano instrument, the trombone either a tenor or bass instrument and on occasion an alto when scored for. Thus the appelation "tenor and bass counterparts of the trumpet" is quite accurate as these instruments are all related and form the cylindrical brass choir of the orchestra. Ed_Solomon 10:10, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

It is technically accurate, but misleading or not sufficiently informative in several regards. First, to have the first sentence of an encyclopedia article equate trombones with trumpets without explaining that the nature of their relationship is in the cylindrical shape of their bore seems a little disingenuous. After all, the first objection (unanswered here) of 99% of readers would be "but trumpets have valves and trombones have slides". Yes, we all know that this isn't their defining attribute, but I think that merits clarification. Second, not explaining the use of soprano/tenor/bass to refer to instruments pitched an octave apart could be confusing in understanding the stated relationship to trumpet. Again,it's accurate, but it borders on trade jargon to non-musicians. Third, not listing tenor and bass trombone as the "most common" trombones. I leave this article to those more qualified to edit it, but I found this confusing or under-explained, and I bet there are many others who would also. Special-T 19:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

This sentence grated on me the first time I read it and still does several months later. I simply don't feel it's clear enough, because (if I have understood the arguments correctly) they are counterparts only in the narrow sense that they both have a predominantly cylindrical bore (and perhaps, also, only in the narrow setting of an orchestral brass section? Though some musical groups besides orchestras do use trumpets and trombones together in a similar way, there are others that don't - British brass bands, for example). All that Ed says is quite correct, and I wouldn't want to be arguing with Grove ;-), but I feel a little more explanation would improve it, particularly as it's in the introductory section of the article. May I suggest the following?

The most frequently encountered trombones are the tenor and bass trombones, which - together with the trumpets - form the cylindrical brass choir of the orchestra. In this musical setting, the tenor and bass trombones may be regarded as the tenor and bass counterparts of the trumpet.

If I was confident that this was an improvement I'd change the article itself, but I'd welcome any comments on here first! 132.244.246.25 10:05, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I have changed the lead paragraphs in an attempt at clarity. - Special-T 14:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Special-T. I like what you've done there. 132.244.246.25 12:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article removed from Wikipedia:Good articles

This article was formerly listed as a good article, but was removed from the listing because I'm not too clear on the references situation. A 'selected bibliography' implies either that only some of the references used are actually listed, or that it's just a further reading list and none of the books listed were necessarily used as references. This should be clarified, and a full references section included. Worldtraveller 23:44, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

The Selective Bibliography has been renamed References and updated accordingly. Ed_Solomon 13:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slide Trumpet =? Soprano Trombone

There was a submission to WP:AFC today, Wikipedia:Articles for creation/2006-03-28#Slide Trumpet. I don't know much about brass instruments, and have read conflicting information about whether the two instruments are the same. If they are, would someone please make a redirect from Slide trumpet here, and, if helpful, merge any of the submission's content to the Soprano section. If they are different, a separate article should be made for the slide trumpet. In either case, if any of the AfC text is used, please credit User:67.166.31.109 in the edit summary. Thanks. ×Meegs 22:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

A slide trumpet is not a trombone. Whilst the term is often incorrectly applied to the soprano trombone, the slide trumpet is a separate and distinct instrument from the soprano trombone and should be listed under a separate article. Ed_Solomon 10:07, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

The slide trumpet predated the invention of the trombone. There are many pitches of slide trumpet. During the time of the Renaissance many trumpets were in the same range as the modern trombone. --Dbolton 19:26, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] B-flat (♭ vs b)

   The tenor trombone has a fundamental note of B♭ [...]

There have been some edits and rv's about the flat character. In UTF-8, there is ♭, but not all browsers or systems recognize that. Instead, you can write: Bb. I think the latter option is for the best...

Or you could write B-flat, like you did above :) Merphant 20:40, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Come now. I could show you a ton of articles that have characters much more arcane than '♭' (Chinese, anyone?) and I don't see anyone going around "fixing" all of those. I understand the sentiment, but a 'b' is not a flat, and talking about B-flats and E-flats gets clunky in a hurry. In fact, look down: lots of UTF-8-only characters down there, and a template to put at the top of the page signifying that the article contains them. I see that as carte blanche to use them as we wish as long as we warn readers, and as soon as I get a minute, that's precisely what I'll do. Jemiller226 18:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (music) recommends Unicode sharps and flats or written out text. Using {{music|flat}} or {{music|♭}} will reduce display issues with the Unicode characters. See Template:Music for details.--Dbolton 05:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

I have removed this from the good articles nominations page. This is not necessarily because it is not good, but because a single-person review cannot really be much use for an article that's 55kb long. I'd suggest that's probably too long, and you should read it through very critically and try to make it as concise as possible, but for a more effective review you should list the article on peer review, possibly with a view to nominating it for featured status. Worldtraveller 16:00, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Valve trombone

I changed the sentence about the attack behaviour of the valve trombone. It is not a result of the trumpet-like shape (a valve trombone is shaped just like a slide trombone, except for the slide), but rather of the valves adding extra curves to the air stream, causing a higher airflow resistance - this is what some people describe as trumpet-like: the trumpet has a higher resistance by nature, due to smaller tubes, plus the valves. For similar reasons, I myself prefer a slide trombone without an F extension valve. 83.247.53.164 16:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] suggestion for Pop Culture reference

I was rather surprised not to see the song "76 Trombones" from The Music Man not included. 172.145.75.7 10:51, 13 January 2007 (UTC)RKH

Excellent point, I have added it. Remember that you can also be bold and simply add it yourself! :-) Dar-Ape 22:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

No! The curse of the smilies strikes again!!--Kevin mills 01:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Kevin_millls

[edit] Split

At 59 kb, this article is just a little too big: see Wikipedia:Article size. I propose moving the "types" section into its own article, Types of trombones. I will go ahead with this unless anyone objects. Dar-Ape 22:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] non-English names for the instrument

RobertG has deleted the list of non-English names on the grounds that it doesn't belong in the lead, and isn't necessary anyway. I accidnetally reverted earlier, and he's since restored his change. I'd say it does serve some purpose as the non-English names are (particularly the German) used in piece names (my long-neglected copy of the Hindemith sonata is entitled Sonata für Posaune und Klavier as I remember) and scores, and it wasn't really in the lead, but an extension to the infobox. Thoughts? David Underdown 19:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that having the translations would be useful because the names of the trombone in other languages are often used in scores and on individual parts. I think it should be reincluded above the infobox (akin to trumpet), but I will wait to see if Robert still disagrees. Dar-Ape 19:43, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I am certain that this information does not belong in the lead, even if it belongs in the article at all. Wikipedia is not a German-English or French-English dictionary. If people are going to search for "Posaune" because they've seen it in their score then would a redirect from Posaune be more helpful? I think by all means have a section on "Trombone" in other languages (or some more elegant title) with an explanation of why such a section is relevant ("in published scores instruments are often given by their German/Italian/French names") but if this is the rationale, I see no need for even mentioning Swedish, Finnish, Polish or Japanese, and French and Italian for "Trombone" is "Trombone". --RobertG ♬ talk 09:12, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes to taking it out of the lead (I'd misremembered on that point), but restore at least some of them to the infobox. Creating the redirects would probably also be a good idea, as for the fact that the orthography is the same in some of the languages - that in itself is useful knowledge I'd say. David Underdown 09:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Additions to the article?

If someone has the time:

1) Historical origins circa 1400 (slide brass instrument - Rome)

I found this on Al's Tenor Horn Page: Given the best evidence, which by all accounts is very much incomplete, the earliest trombone, called the sackbutt and similar names in England, seems to have emerged from Belgium circa 1450. Though the earliest examples of this instrument date to a century later (circa 1550), direct references to musicians and their instruments, and surviving artwork, both establish the existence of the saxbutt circa 1450.

The bells of these earliest instruments terminated in a rimless funnel little wider than 5" in diameter (13cm). Like the modern trombone, these were a tenor instrument, and by the early 17th century there was an alto, a bass and a contrabass version.

These early instruments often came with a variety of crooks, to lower the pitch a tone or more, or in some cases to drop the range of a particular instrument to the next register. Mike McDonald

2) Syllabic method for register change (arching of the back of the tongue to achieve greater air pressure)

3) Soprano Trombone (perhaps link to Moravian trombone Ensemble tradition in America)

Thanks

Greenmrt 20:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Popular culture necessary?

The entire Popular culture section is unencyclopedic and reads like a middle-school lunchroom discussion. Surely putting a reference to everything with the word "trombone" in it doesn't add to this encyclopedia. I'm checking here for input before removing this section, but it seems completely inane. - Special-T 01:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Remove. It is inane. Of course, when diligence is relaxed, inanity returns. That's the thing about Wikipedia; all work is for naught, given enough time. Zzorse 13:39, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

As Percy Shelly points out, that's true of every human endeavour. Collabi 22:53, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jack Teagarden's trombone in a glass?

Hello. I was interested in learning more about a technique popularized by Jack Teagarden, but your article doesn't say anything about it. Since I know nothing about the trombone, better give you some references I found than try and write something myself:

" One of Jack [Teagarden]'s specialties was to remove the bell section of the trombone and play the slide section into a water glass, producing an eerie, bluesy sound. " in http://www.jazzstandards.com/compositions-2/stjamesinfirmary.htm
" [...] a proven crowd-pleasing vaudeville trick: using a water glass in place of the trombone's chamber and flared bell, which produced an ethereal, plaintive sound–and here, in the Infirmary, some rasping, ascending and descending buzzes, the anguished inner voice of a mourner. " in http://www.texasobserver.org/article.php?aid=1347

Maybe someone knowledgeable could write a section about trombone special tricks and techniques, that would include this one among others? And a picture of Teagarden performing it would be great. 62.147.38.254 14:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History section

While informative, the sections on the history of the trombone aren't very useful without in-text citations... Where did the information come from? Thechuck 21:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New article created on Bb/F trombone

Someone has created F_attachment_tenor_trombone. I guess it should be deleted and its content merged into this article. 132.244.246.25 07:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and it's listed in Category:Brass_instruments too. 132.244.246.25 07:50, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

converted to redirect to Types of trombones#The F attachment David Underdown 09:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pryor

Arthur Pryor probably does merit a mention somewhere, but not in the para listing composers writing for it as a symphonic instrument. His pieces seem to more in line the cornet solos that were popular in the early 20th century, so probably belong more in the para on solo writing, btu I can't immediately think how to word it. David Underdown (talk) 10:48, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A trombone and a plunger were used to generate the voice of Charlie Brown's teacher.

Did someone view this as non-notable? Sarsaparilla (talk) 00:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Back to Bb vs. C

I am adding a sentence to the first paragraph that will, I hope, clarify by mentioning that: 1. The most common trombone is the tenor trombone, pitched in Bb, and 2. trombone music is generally written in concert pitch. They are, most emphatically, not pitched in C. - Special-T (talk) 23:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Good. Badagnani (talk) 23:58, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Also a reason it should stay to Bb is that the person who changes it only changes a part of it and messes up the rest of the information given --Antonio Lopez ^(talk) 00:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the info about E-flat and F trombones doesn't make any sense when B-flat trombones are changed to "C trombones." Badagnani (talk) 00:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Diagram incorrect

The following comment was added in the wrong topic:

I completely agree. The part labled 9 is refered to as just "the nut" or "the connector nut" in my experience, although there is probably a more formal name. Someone with some time on their hands should download the photo and insert #10, pointing to the slide lock. In the diagram, the slide lock is the bulge below the mouthpiece, between the first and second slide braces. Of course, the caption should be changed accordingly. 71.243.47.202 (talk) 21:36, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Fixed it. While I was at it, I added a line pointing to the counterweight. __Just plain Bill (talk) 16:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)