Wikipedia talk:Trivia sections

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shortcuts:
WT:TRIV
WT:TRIVIA

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Wikipedia:Trivia sections page.
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
This talk page is automatically archived by MiszaBot II.
Any sections older than 14 days are automatically archived. An archive index is available here.

Contents

[edit] Recent edits

I saved NickPenguin's changes to Wikipedia:Trivia sections/draft2. I reverted those changes basically because they were major changes, not just copyedit-type stuff, and there didn't seem to be consensus for most of it yet. Specific changes were:

  • Removal of "Trivia sections should not be categorically removed", which doesn't seem like a good idea.
  • Moving content into a section titled "Trivia sections", when the entire guideline is about trivia sections to begin with
  • Moving the "Not all list sections are trivia sections" section into the lead, and moving much of the lead down into the "Trivia sections" section. This seems like an arbitrary exchange, and rather than have a redundant "Trivia sections" section, it seems like the "not all lists" content would serve better as the separate section -- especially for emphasis. Remember that some people who read guidelines just glance at the "headlines". It helps to give important points their own headers. Equazcion •✗/C • 19:26, 29 Feb 2008 (UTC)
I'd like the not categorically removed point kept, but appended with "unless it is appropriate to remove all the content within the section" or something like that. It would get the point across that removing the sections just because they're called Trivia sections isn't a good method to use, but it would also not ban the removal of the section if all the content in it is truly inappropriate for the article. Bill (talk|contribs) 20:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
What if we made "Trivia sections should not be categorically removed" a section title? --NickPenguin(contribs) 20:16, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Incidentally, per Wikipedia:Five pillars about Wikipedia containing elements of specialized encyclopedias, apparently there are specialized encyclopedias on trivia. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 20:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

←To Bill: "Trivia sections should not be categorically removed" (emphasis added) means that they shouldn't be removed just because they are trivia sections. By definition is still leaves open other motivations for removing the sections. Also I don't think specifically telling people they can remove the entire section is a good idea; I think it's best to keep the focus on individual items. Then, if all the items have been removed, the section header can obviously be removed. People should be focusing on the items themselves anyway, rather than on the question of "should a trivia section be here". Nick: I don't think another separate section is really necessary... the stuff in the lead right now, I think, should probably stay there, rather than be moved down in favor of the "not all lists..." content. I don't see what the value is in that reorganization. Equazcion •✗/C • 20:32, 29 Feb 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I agree that the focus should entirely be on the content and not the name of the section being the decider for validity. Bill (talk|contribs) 22:23, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Last 2 contributions above are the most sensible things ever written here Albatross2147 (talk) 08:28, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Style Guideline Validity

Taking the trivia section on a movie page removes one of the best and most unique parts of Wikipedia. Not sure where else to put this but it is an idea that needs to be considered. 67.183.201.165 (talk) 09:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Since IMDB and TV.com writeups both have "Trivia" sections, this feature is hardly unique. It should be considered that encyclopedias are written without "Trivia" sections. This guideline does not advise editors to remove this information, but to integrate such information into the article. / edg ☺ ☭ 09:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I have stayed out of discussions for the last several weeks hoping that a useful guideline would emerge. While there has been considerable progress (easy for me to say, things are going in the general direction I like), the basic problem remains unresolved. Some of us are categorically opposed to trivia sections and will continue to remove them while others of us see trivia sections as of value in some circumstances. After several months of discussion and revision, it seems to me that the real problem is not the language of the the style guides, it is the unwillingness of some editors to accept that others do not agree with nor are willing to conform to their stylistic ideals. Personally, every time someone high handedly informs me that trivia is always avoidable, I want to run out and add a trivia section to the driest, most stylistically rigid articles in the whole project. I resist the urge, but every time I see an attack on one of my favorite articles, it angers me. I suggest an alternative solution. We continue to discourage trivia sections - the guidelines as they are now written are really pretty good - and we agree to leave those sections which are in existence alone until after thorough discussion and consensus is reached on each and every single trivia section. Those who simply can't bear to see anything fun or joyful in our wiki will then have to pursuade the rest of us before killing things off; those who have carelessly 'dumped' useless or random data into a trivia section will also be helped to eliminate or clean it up. Oh, and a bot could remove those annoying trivia cleanup notices.Panthera germanicus (talk) 18:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)panthera_germanicus 18:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Panthera germanicus (talk::that's ::There's a distinction between the section, and the content. Most of what accumulates of trivia sections is valid content, but is better moved elsewhere -- the production details go with the production, the use in subsequent media goes in a section on that, and so forth. The real problem is with the people who want to diminish the general extent of coverage of fictional and entertainment topics. they should simply work on what they do want to work on, and try to attain a general tolerance of each others' interests. DGG (talk) 20:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Trivia sections are fun! Don't get rid of them, otherwise trivia will be included into paragraphs and they'll become digressive - 211.30.227.30 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 07:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] KEEP THEM

Keep the f&%@%&%# things! I'm talking mostly through my frustrations with the Family Guy pages, but I still think they should be kept! What I'm starting to see with Familt Guy pages, and possibly other pages, is that the trivia sections (called "Notes," Trivia", and "Cultural Refrences") are starting to be made into paragraph form, when they have nothing to do with each other! And another thing, the facts are starting to become inacurate in thoes sections! I;m sure this has been detected and corrected, butr a few months ago, the arical for Whistle While Your Wife Works, in the "Production" section, which is replacing the trivia sections, I beleive it stated that the DVD commentary said that Seth MacFarlane's dad sang "It's a hole in the bottom of the sea" as Stewie, which is false. Also, the new "meets the guidelines" sections are dificult to follow. That is all. With all due respect, BrianGriffin-FG (talk) 22:58, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Can't really blame a style guideline if other editors have inserted false information, since it would be false in paragraph form or list form. It is a problem if people are simply throwing unrelated tidbits in the same section, since that's no better than a list (as far as the concerns this guideline tries to address), so maybe we can say something to help discourage that. -- Ned Scott 08:06, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Listen, I like unrelated tidbits, and I like the list form. When I first started coming here, I thought that the articals with the lists where well organized; there was a intro, a plot, some trivia, and some refrences to other stuff. Now what I'm seeing is the lists are being made into paragraphs that are hard to follow, and that's making the articals disorganized. You see my point?--BrianGriffin-FG (talk) 20:46, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Not all tidbits are "unrelated", and certainly not all tidbits are reallocated in paragraph form. Often short selective lists are the best way to present this information, which is preferred over an unselective and openended list. --NickPenguin(contribs) 21:15, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
If anyone turns a reasonably well-organized list into poor prose, that's the wrong thing to do. If people assume that's what this guideline is recommending, that's wrong. Additionally, if someone turns a not-very-well organized list into even poorer prose, that's even more wrong.
Perhaps it would be worthwhile to offer better guidance on when organized lists are preferable to "integration into prose".--Father Goose (talk) 01:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Nothing in this guideline recommends turning lists into "poor prose". Editors who feel their points are best made by typing in ALLCAPS would do well to add information in bullet list form and let others fix it. / edg ☺ ☭ 16:25, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, with the people who want to keep the trivia sections, I have learned many things from those sections! KEEP THEM! --Ian.hawdon (talk) 15:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

While I am not against the existence of trivia sections, they are most often not sourced and as such should be removed. Well sourced trivia that is not original research is okay in moderation, but limited. Hey, notice I said all that without typing all capital words? (1 == 2)Until 15:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
The disadvantages of "Trivia" sections include that they are often unsourced, can often give WP:Undue weight to their material, and are often written in a manner which would be completely unacceptable anywehre else. As such, they can be, and often are, the most problematic part(s) of any article. I cannot see how it would be acceptable to demand that we keep sections which are among the most problematic parts of any article. Having said that, I myself have often contributed to sections containing what others consider trivia, but those sections are more specifically named and have greater content guidelines than a simple "trivia" section does. John Carter (talk) 15:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
In summary: lists titled "trivia" = bad; lists of miscellaneous information = not necessarily bad, use digression/common sense. And I think that's about as clear cut as it'll get. --NickPenguin(contribs) 22:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
That way of phrasing it may have the effect of oversimplifying. Re-titling Trivia sections to get around this guidelines is usually missing the point. / edg ☺ ☭ 16:25, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I like so-called trivia sections. * They encapsulate intriguing facts that it might take a whole paragraph to explicate ... ballooning articles with fluff is bad. * It was the style in old works to put such tidbits in footnotes (actually at the bottom of every printed page) for decades. * Trivia are easy for beginners to add; they or someone else can work them into paragraphs later * There's a clear popular interest in such things (distressing to the elitists, I'm sure).

The question of what is "trivial" is clearly philosophical. The declaration that something is trivial presumes that the declarer has an omniscient POV; if we learn anything from history it's that the little things aren't dispensable, and may even be critical. While it probably won't, today's trivium may assume great magnitude at some future date.

Finally, good books are not only humorous but human. Stiff rigid books more interested in abstract standards than humanity are largely passed into history. Which would most of us rather read? QED Twang (talk) 19:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Also agreed. Given the HIGH number of article pages which have Trivia sections in one form or another, maybe it's time that they were given credit on Wikipedia. I'm all for integrating content into the article when and where it makes sense, and even this policy notes that a trivia section presentation is better than nothing at all. Quite frankly, I find the "Discouraged" banners far more distracting and unencyclopedic than the material usually contained therein. I'm not saying the policy should go away, but maybe it's time Wikipedia recognized that "discouraged" is inappropriate given the high volume of articles containing them. And maybe it's time for that banner to go away as well, or be located elsewhere in the article (maybe at the bottom of it?) 98.215.48.213 (talk) 06:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The trivia sections provide interesting notes about the article As long as the information is accurate, I believe that they should be kept. It doesn't make a difference whether they are in list or paragraph form, but we are more used to the list form. Trivia is not only interesting to read, but in times, they are also informational. I propose to bring them back.

O—— The Unknown Hitchhiker 15:38, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
This isn't about list vs paragraph, it's more about what section the information is found in. The "trivia" we're talking about isn't any more or less interesting to read than any other fact in the article. There's no difference between them, except one group of facts is unorganized. We really need to make an FAQ for this guideline.. -- Ned Scott 01:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
As someone who doesn't even have a username, and has never edited wiki other then the talk pages (honestly I don't think I'd be very good at it). I don't have a huge understanding of all the rules and guidelines and their rational. However they aways seem to have positive impacts and I'm very impressed with the editors and the general quality and evolution of Wikipedia articles. The one rule/guidline I will never appreciate is the "no trivia" rule. I agree in may cases intergrating this trivia makes the article more unorganized and makes information harder to locate. I believe it should be allowed for certian articles. While it would seem out of place in an article about a person, I think a trivia list would be useful and beneficial in an article about an television episode, a movie, a book, and maybe even the more general television series articles. I wonder if it possible to change this rule to only cover certian articles? Or at least open up discussion on the issue. Is "no trivia" really set in stone? Seems like everything else in the Wiki community is open to debate, evolution, and discussion.
This guideline isn't a "no trivia" rule. Basically it's about the organisation of information on the page. Imagine in a movie article, an item in a trivia section that says "Originally Chuck Norris was cast as the protagonist". It makes much more sense to have that piece of information in the casting section instead of separated into a section with facts that aren't related to casting. That's just one kind of example I've seen before. The actual content of an article is governed by other policies and the consensus around that article. The guideline also states that information should not be removed just because it is in a trivia section. Bill (talk|contribs) 18:35, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Also agree. While there seems to be a movement to make Wikipedia more like Britannica, Wikipedia doesn't have the space constraints that a physical(book) encyclopedia has. If you're against trivia sections for this reason, you might as well remove all but the most culturally significant pop culture articles as they would never make it onto Britannica. Aside from legal issues, or excessively long bandwidth/processor munching articles, there isn't a valid reason to attack a section that can easily be ignored by those who hate them, or found by those who like them. It's not like there will ever be a trivia section in a scientific article like Australopithecus; such articles are in a different world when compared to pop culture articles. People interested in pop culture are also interested in how an article's topic is tied into other aspects of pop culture. When I crawl scientific articles, I usually end up crawling through See Also. When I crawl pop culture articles, I usually crawl through Trivia. Trivia bashing is an absurd waste of time, and needless to say, I roll my eyes whenever I see the trivia template. Sarysa (talk) 16:11, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I too agree, Trivia sections are very interesting to read, and make reading about certain topics a much more enjoyable experience. I suggest, that if the issue is un-cited trivia - then institute a policy that all trivia must be cited, and moderate it! Don't remove all the sections just because a few facts are wrong - you may as well disband wikipedia in that case! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.124.61 (talk) 21:02, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

The guideline is about organisation of information not the banning of trivia. It specifically states that it does not suggest the inclusion or exclusion of any information. If the information is fine then it can be kept. Secondly, In popular culture sections are not covered by this guideline, if such a section is tagged as a trivia section then it can be untagged. It's likely however, that the section will need the {{prose}} tag instead. Bill (talk|contribs) 18:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above, that triva is useful and insigful and that it should, most defenitly, be kept and NOT integrated into a paragraph. 12.214.32.101 (talk) 06:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


I agree wholeheartedly. Many comments above are very insightful. "Trivia" comments are often odd bits of information that don't belong elsewhere, don't merit a whole section to themselves, and can't be easily added to other sections. Wikipedia doesn't have the space constraints of other media. I would like to see the REMOVAL of all Trivia Templates. DavidPickett (talk) 15:43, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Classical music in popular culture

I have created this page in hopes of resolving the ongoing scrapping aout popular culter sections in articles on music compositions. You can read discussion on this matter at the new talk page of the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music/Compositions task force. I would suggest this as a solution to the overall dispute. Of course, this article needs a pruner - a caretaker who will take responsibility for deleting the really irrelevant junk, and for rewriting wherever necessary. I have volunteered to do this for the classical music page (as you can see, I have not yet started). This solution could be applicable to other areas of culture as well.

Regards, --Ravpapa (talk) 10:59, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

You might get more helpful feedback from WT:IPC than here. I think there are less than 10 good "In popular culture" articles on Wikipedia, and classical music deserves a good one. The pervasiveness of such music as background, soundtrack, and familiar signifier, would make a list of "spottings" (as it is currently formed) especially unwieldy and unencyclopedic. I would suggest instead of debating which are the most notable examples, the article would be better rewritten to illustrate the meanings and place of classical music in the larger culture, with examples kept where the are most illustrative. Wikipedia:"In popular culture" articles is a decent guideline, and User:Edgarde/IPC (note namespace) an opinionated, unaccepted one that I like. / edg ☺ ☭ 15:50, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Classical music in popular culture is certainly a subject worth having in Wikipedia. However, it's an enormous subject, because of its pervasiveness, as edgarde points out. I could write an entire article about Erik Satie's music in popular culture alone, for instance -- just recently I saw two films with his music, Badlands, which contained an interesting transcription of his Trois Morceaux en forme de Poire on marimba (I believe), and Being There, which contained ragtime-style riffs on his Gnossiennes. In fact, I first fell in love with his music almost 20 years ago when I heard the third Gnossienne in, of all things, a Lexus commercial. So a "Classical music in popular culture" article could only provide an overview of the subject, which could potentially, and informatively, fill hundreds of articles.
It's unfortunate that certain editors find the intersection between high culture and pop culture to be "unencyclopedic". I really would like to have an encyclopedia that contains articles on dead white Europeans that nobody cares about, with supplemental material that reminds the disinterested reader that the subject is in fact relevant to them -- "OMG, the melody of that great Sting song was written by some old dork? I'll have to learn more about him."--Father Goose (talk) 22:02, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiproject anti trivia

Hello if you hate Trivia sections on Wikipages you should support Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Anti-Trivia --IwilledituTalk :)Contributions 23:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Did you know...

Does anyone else see the "Did you know..." section on the main page as a little hypocritical in regards to this policy? TunaSushi (talk) 22:34, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Not really, because the main page is a portal that leads into other articles. It's not an article itself, and all that information is organized in other articles. We have discussed the possibility of making a "DYK/trivia/something" box that we could put on articles that would be the same idea and be acceptable. The idea would be that the information would be in both places, in the box and in the article in its proper spot. -- Ned Scott 23:43, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I absoultely agree. I also for this reason find Wikipedia's anti-trivia stance not only hypocritical, but bureaucratic as well.76.177.160.69 (talk) 12:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
The DYK section is intended to be a showcase for newly-created articles on Wikipedia, and the formatting of the front page is, like Ned says, that of a portal, not that of an article, so different rules of presentation apply.--Father Goose (talk) 00:01, 5 April 2008 (UTC)


They're fun. I like them in wikipedia articles too. Is there a prohibition against fun in wikipedia? Seems excessively snooty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.240.243.170 (talk) 23:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Like I said above, we're looking at finding ways to have our cake and eat it too. -- Ned Scott 05:25, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] In popular culture

I've added "In popular culture" to the list of the names of trivia sections in the introduction of the article. Given that 95% of the trivia sections in wikipedia articles are titled "In popular culture", it seems silly not to list this. --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 18:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The advice given for trivia sections does not fully apply to IPC sections. The popular culture influence of a subject is a specific, often valid subtopic. However, such sections may need to be exported to spinout articles (per WP:SS), or rewritten as prose, or pared back to the most notable instances. The advice to "integrate" them generally does not apply.--Father Goose (talk) 21:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Incidentally, if you come across specific IPC sections that you feel are in need of cleanup, list them at WP:WPTPC and we'll do what we can.--Father Goose (talk) 21:43, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who started the anti-trivia policy?

Who were the people who set the anti-trivia policy? When did Wikipedia became a source of self-censorship... I have seen much interesting information being deleted away because of this policy and it is becoming very sad when knowledge is lost. Referencing from Metal Gear Solid 2, do we really need people to censor for us to keep the best information, while filtering the useless away. I believe we can decide sensibily what is correct and wrong. I used to read Wiki becasue of the interesting titbits, references and triva. Now it´s sad when people are using the anti-trivia policy to delete entire sections of what could be useful and accurate information. 85.0.51.39 (talk) 23:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Good information should never be deleted, but sometimes it should be moved. It's very hard to know where to draw the line, of course, but if a lot of readers start rolling their eyes, if the information seems to be only by and for the fans of the entertainment, then www.wikia.com and lots of other websites are much better places for it than Wikipedia. The main idea behind the "no trivia" guideline was that trivia should eventually be sorted and sifted and worked into the text, rather than just presented as an embedded list of trivia, as long as a significant number of readers would actually find it interesting. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 23:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Trivia is the only good thing about Wikpedia,keep it.86.87.28.191 (talk) 16:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


I think that if these list or article as trivia can not be shifted or be sorted, the trivia section should be remained. Some of trivia section are lost anything but it be moved/improved. i.e. some good information are lost....

Even though some people say that there are other good websites for trivia, please do not forget that Wikipedia are not in English. I use Wikipedia as world-wide dictionary. My mother language is Japanese, not English. But I can easily access to other language including English in Wikipedia. So, I read other language Wikipedia. For me, it is more hard/taugh work to find out/use other webpage for trivia. Trivia is trivia. Almost people will not get the information by hard work. But if the trivia be in there, people see it.

I think that trivia section's problem can be resolved by following way.

1) Too many information as a dictionary.
Wikipedia have Dynamic Navigation Boxes Wikipedia:NavFrame. This can be covered from people which do not want to see the section.

2) No references articles.
Template:Unreferenced and Template:Fact exist. --HATA A. K. (talk) 11:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


I believe the whole 'trivia section are discouraged' template as a bit misleading, as it gives the impression that all information, in a trivia page should not be on Wikipedia (at least thats the impression I got), when the page talks about the information as being unsorted information, and that the trivia page should exist as a temporary section before it is decided where it fits in, when the template gives the impression that the section should be outright deleted because of it is discouraged.

I would suggest changng the template, so that it says 'Information in Trivia sections are unsorted information and are requested to be placed in the valid section' or something along those lines, intead of being misleading until one reads the trivia article. Unless I have got the wrong impression or the article in which case, please explain .The First Darklord (talk) 00:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Trivia" or "Notes"?

I don't know if this is commonplace, but it seems that "Trivia" sections are being renamed "Notes" in order to get around Wikipedia policy on trivia. I love trivia sections myself, but isn't this just the same thing under a different name? Just trying to confirm this for the future.67.177.49.13 (talk) 16:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

This guideline is pretty clear that "Trivia" is just the most common name for indiscriminate and unselective lists, and other open-ended lists like "Notes", "Facts", "Miscellanea or "Other information" are just variations on the theme. This guideline covers all those lists, and in all those cases, the first task should be to integrate those facts into the article proper, rather than keep a potentially endless section. See the essay Handling Trivia for advice on integration. --NickPenguin(contribs) 19:10, 24 May 2008 (UTC)