Talk:Trivium (band)/Archive2

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--Cheffboyardee123 10:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)==Metalcore?== Metalcore? Sounds like straight-up thrash metal to me.68.33.185.185 21:49, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

TRIVIUM is a metalcore band. Their recent material may be thrash metal-influenced, but that does not change them from being a metalcore band. I think it's pretty idiotic that when I changed it to 'thrash metal-influenced metalcore' (which they are, it's not just another idiotic opinion), someone changed it back to metalcore-influenced thrash metal. God..I think I know more about metal than any Trivium fan. Stop trying to make you and your favourite band sound metal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Isilioth (talk • contribs) 05:07, 27 February 2007.

Wow... I may agree with you somewhat... but seriously... way to come of as a complete elitist dick, rather then giving us a source or explaining why, they are metalcore because you say so and you know more about metal than any trivium fan and anyone who puts thrash on here is just trying to make their favorite band sound metal. You really convinced me.--E tac 22:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Metalcore...Thrash...who cares?! Metal is metal. And besides genres are subjective not objective. That means based on opinion or fact in case your ignorant (you probably are). I personally love Trivium and I don't care what genre they are. If they are metalcore, well then I guess I like metalcore. To qoute Matthew K. Heafy, "We didn't want to be speed, we didn't want to be thrash, we didn't even want to be metal, we just wanted to be Trivium."

So many idiot bands say theyre their 'own' style of metal. Cradle of Filth, a prime example. And NO, fool, there is no way a genre can be subjective...genres are objective... fuck, how the hell did you come up with that?? According to your logic, I could be listening to classical music, but you could listen to the same thing and say thats hip hop? If you cant tell the difference between metal genres (which obviously no one here can), you are completely useless. Isilioth 05:51, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. noone can tell the differenc ebetween genres here. Trivium is metalcore, Bodom Kalmah and Norther are power, Amon Amarth is melodic death NOT viking metal. wikipedia is full of retards. And to the idiot two paragraphs above, metal is metal? No, you stupid. There are different genres of metal, jsut shut the up. 72.39.152.86 16:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC) - Edited for foul language.

• • • • The hell are you talking about? Children of Bodom, Kalmah and Norther power metal!! You're just contradicting yourself, if you can't work out metal genres,you can't tell other people off for making the same mistake. Those bands are Melodic Death Metal. Every now and then, they have a bit of power metal influences, but they're still Melodic Death Metal. Power Metal is Rhapsody or Dragonforce. Amon Amarth is viking themed melodeath. I conclude that YOU are the retard. -PedroFromHell ****

Actually extreme metal genres are very hard to distinguish especially if an artist/band changes their sound between different albums, how do you classify them? Maurauth 20:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

They're not metalcore. Show me where they do breakdowns or do hc-style and I'll think otherwise. The new album isn't. And no I am not a fan, I think it's pretty stupid how every american band that takes cues from metallica or in flames these days is automatically "metalcore". Rp81 19:54, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

75% of the bands people have or do call metalcore have nothing to do with true Hardcore Punk. Inhumer 18:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

In response to everyone who posted on this topic - there are too many heavy metal sub-genres. This is coming from someone who listens to a lot of heavy metal music. I can reason with maybe some of the sub-genres, such as speed metal, death metal, etc and so on, but a lot of these genres, even if they are fusions of genres, don't display enough individuality (in my opinion) to have their own sub-genre. I also don't get why people like to argue about a genre, especially if it's a fusion genre, and the argument tends to lean towards which genre of the two is the overall more distinguished or if it is even a genre or not. metalhead 19:35, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree there are too many sub-genres but to any one who tries to classify trivium as metalcore or thrash metal first needs to think about this classification of metalcore:"As of this writing, metalcore is the latest rage in underground metal in America. These bands combine straight hardcore singing with music often more aligned with thrash or melodic death (indeed, a lot of bands these days seem to be blurring the distinction between melodic death and metalcore)." even though ppl say trivium is metalcore they're still thrash and melodic death influenced which means they can still classify themselves as thrash metal just because theyre screaming doesnt mean its not thrash --Cheffboyardee123 10:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Leave as is 2 Knowledge of Metal 3 Cleanup 4 Genre 5 Advertisement 6 Trivium are definately metalcore 7 http://www.myspace.com/trivium 8 redirecting/disambiguation 9 Genre dispute idea 10 Melodic Death Metalcore 11 Cleanup of recent events section 12 Added The Crusade section 13 Progressive metal 14 Metal Hammer's Best albums of 2006 15 Image in infobox 16 Article seriously short of citations 17 Things I have noticed in my copyedit... 18 It's a big job! 19 A few things 20 Semi protection 21 Thrashcore! 22 GA 23 Single/album sales and chart positions 24 Which genre to use in the lead? 25 Another genre addition 26 Fro mthe Outside looking in 27 VANDALISM!! 28 What helps with genre 29 Singles Section 30 Vandalism

Leave as is

Can I just say that this is probably the best, and least biased write up of the article that I have seen in the last year or so and should be left as is until there is a *need* for an update (eg new album release) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.244.209.166 (talk • contribs) 19:09, 19 February 2007.

Hi, Im new to wikipedia and im not sure why this article needs to be re-written because it looks like an advertisement. I disagree, it is un-biased and fulfils the role of a wikipedia article--Vulcan5978 14:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Knowledge of Metal

I don't think you know more about metal than me or Trivium, i'm probably a bigger Trivium fan too. -- Metal 19:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

LOL "Metal" Lord. I had a look at your user page. Theres only about 3 or 4 bands I would call metal (Iron Maiden, Metallica (early), black sabbath). You don't know anything about metal. I Laugh hard at the title "Metal Lord". 14 years old? Trivium is a metalcore band. Isilioth 22:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the fact that you say there's only 3 or 4 metal bands suggests your knowledge of metal isn't very vast or informed either

Who the Hell do you think you are?! Stop bashing people's taste in music and acting like you know everything about metal. I probably know more than you! why don't you get over your self and shut up. Go listen to that annoying grindcore crap that you call music. Stop trying to prove everyone else's ignorance and go work on your own.

It is funny how black metal claims to be the most underground genre of an outsiders genre to begin with, yet all of their fans are just a bunch of elitists. Isilioth is probably some 16 year old who got into black metal from the internet and now he thinks he is the most metal person alive. Isilioth, why don't you go burn a church and murder your bandmates like your ultra kvlt heroes.--E tac 22:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh you guys know soooo much. You plead equality. Why dont you sign your comments? Have you all got commplete dumbfuck names like "Metal Lord"? Whoever said something about me thinking only 3 or 4 bands on his list are metal: I meant 'actual' metal. I included Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, and such. I discluded rock-based bands such as Marilyn Manson, Trivium, Slipknot, all your metalcore and alternative shit. E tac, i dont think im the most "metal" person alive. I often dont dress in any "metal" way to avoid being approached by moron "metalheads", as they label themselves. You completely miss the point of metal. I am sure you would laugh if i was to inform you that metal is dead. Also, this whole fucking category should be deleted, it has nothing to do with this homosexual article. Isilioth 05:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Isilioth:Butthurt internet tough guy AND metal elitist? Honestly, you are quite a poor representation of the average "true" metalhead. I agree with your positions for the most part, however rather than debate your points like an adult, you choose to childishly attack the person you are debating, and vandalize articles with your own biases. I understand, being a metal fan, that it's easy to become jaded, but just let it go. All you seem to do here is obsess over bands you don't like. As for metal being dead, the underground maintains strength only when the mainstream shuns it and has the "fake" metal genres. I'm sure you will vandalize my user page, or give me an all caps response about how much of a poser I am, but I really think you should give up your one man war on "mainstream" metal via wikipedia. Oh, and I don't find you to be one to talk about people not signing comments. This was all friendly advice, by the way. Cronos12390 02:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The average "true" metalhead is a moron. Umm...why don't you have a look at how everyone is "attacking" me... I never vandalize articles. I try to represent the facts. Im sick of kids walking around thinking Trivium is a heavy metal band when they are metalcore. (That was an example, there are many more). So why cant I change wikipedia to make it display the facts? I have only "vandalized" perhaps twice, and they were for good reason: I would do it again. Why would I vandalize your user page? Please... I am not biased in my editing of this article. Why dont you read the genre section of this talk page instead of "attacking" me? Oh, and dude...besides you, only one other person signed their comment. What??? I ALWAYS sign my comments. Isilioth 02:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I've seen a few of your statements in which you did not sign your comments, therefore, chastising people for it is erroneous. Generally, every other comment I see you leave you refer to someone as something, if not an idiot, a poser, a fanboy, something along those lines. Maybe you don't see it, I do. Nobody says too much to you in an offensive context, at least nothing you didn't earn in an earlier comment. I said you would vandalize my user page, as this seems like something you would do. It's simply how you come off. Now.... I won't say Trivium is a thrash band, though their material is based in the style (I'm referencing the latest album, the Crusade, I don't like it if you want to know. Earlier material, total metalcore.) they do not possess the "spirit" or "mentality" of thrash. But, see, this is MY opinion. Yours might be different (they aren't in any way, I'm guessing), and a fan's would most certainly would be (MaSta of puppets 4 ow generation!!11! as a fan once put it). But see, these are subjective. I'm not going to tell you what to think, but I find the manner you comport yourself with somewhat distasteful. I understand your frustrations seeing the mallcore kids walk around in their Atreyu shirts, acting like they're metal. Pisses me off. Let me ask a question though, what bands do you like? I'm curious. P.S: What did you mean by the statement: "The average "true" metalhead is a moron."? Oh, and again, I mean you no offense. I simply think you could make your points better.Cronos12390 04:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The first two and a half lines of what you just said was untrue and biased. I am not childish, I dont get my jollies by editing peoples user pages. Funny that you would bring this up, have you done it yourself? I agree with you on Trivium's genre, and the "mentality" and such. Read my comment in the genre discussion below though, thats the kind of thing that pisses me off. How many thousands of kids read that and think bands like these are true metal. I'm not one for sitting back and watching shit happen, I try to act (recently applied for a job with Greenpeace too). As for my taste in music, I'm not going to say as I'm sure theres plenty of Trivium fanboys reading this (over a period of time). The average metalhead misses the point of metal (and many who are simply not that bright), or they are people who just listen to Metallica and Slayer and call themselves metalheads (who are simply not that bright). Isilioth 10:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

No, I have never vandalized anyone's user page, but I've seen it done before in retaliation, though I consider you to be slightly better than the guy I know to have done it. I see, though, that we will not come to an agreement on anything we don't agree on already, which I'm fine with. Have you seen the encyclopedia dramatica article on Trivium? I can't make a link for you (Wikipedia classifies them as an attack site, that's partially true.), but if you put it in google, I think you may find a good lol. Anyway, I wish you luck on your edits, as I find it refreshing to see a metalhead so frustrated be so hopeful about something like this.Cronos12390 15:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Trivium is NOT metalcore. They are thrash. And Lamb of God is NOT metalcore, either. I listen to well over 100 different metalcore bands. I know what I am talking about.

Good for you, you listen to metalcore, including trivium, don't you feel cool? Trivium is as much of a thrash band as Good Charlotte or Blink 182 are punk bands, which they arent, so I'm sure my point has been made. Trivium is just a commercial knockoff of "thrash metal" that uses a false label to sell records, just how bands like disturbed and korn try to call their crap metal so ignorant little kids will buy it. PLus the new trivium CD sounds like the product of a crazed sexual affair between metallica and (insert emo band name here). F. Rogers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.225.243.248 (talk) 19:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

Lots of good content but a bit over-written in places and disorganised. It feels like it was written by someone with good knowledge but without essay writing experience (The Elfoid 16:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC))

Genre

I know we had this discussion ages ago, and agreed on "Metalcore-influenced thrash metal" and "earlier material=metalcore, recent material=thrash metal". However, it keeps being changed. Are we still agreed on this? Or does it need changing?Asics talk ^{Editor review!}

Anonymous editors will keep changing it back and forth until the band is no longer popular. Chubbles 01:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I posted this on Asics talk page in response to something he left me: YES objection. Just because they themselves say theyre thrash metal does not make them so. They are just using this lately to try market themselves as real metal (See: front cover of latest MetalHammer magazine). Across of the cover of that mag, it said "Trivium: Destroyers of False Metal" and the quote from matt heafy: "Fuck metalcore...We're for real". Which is complete idiocy. Their new material may be influenced by early Metallica, but does not change the fact that they are a METALCORE band. They were always a metalcore band before they included a Metallica influence. This makes them a metalcore band (early), thrash metal- influenced metalcore band (recent). Still, its important to realise that any sources such as myspace and anything the band/promoters are responsible for, is biased as a marketing tool. "Heavy metal" sells. Isilioth 05:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Isilioth you are a complete idiot the fact is trivium is never going back to that metalcore style of music therefore puts trivium in the thrash/melodic metal category if you say trivium is metalcore than ur saying metallica is metalcore its that simple bands can chage their style of music who are you to classify a bands genre and to all other idiots who say that trivium is not true metal who the hell are you to declare what is or isnt true metal any band that has these five letters in the genre M E T A L is considered true metal whether you like it or not just because a band is thrash, death, core, speed, melodic, christian, doesnt chage the fact that they're metal--Cheffboyardee123 11:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

who the hell said metallica was metalcore? metallica is the furthest thing from it. listen to the lyrics of real metalcore bands such as bullet for my vallentine and then listen to metallica's lyrics. completely different. metallica actually sang and wrote about the things that plaque our world. their lyrics werent pussy feel bad for me bull shit.

Trivium is not Progessive Metal, someone keeps putting Progressive Metal in the genres, and its starting to piss me off.

Find a source that states their genre then. People wanted it to be Thrash Metal, and the only reliable source that was found included Progressive Metal so that's what it has to be. Maurauth ^{(talktome)(wha?)} 14:53, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi just in passing - I notice that the source cited for "progressive metal" just lists their styles as alternative thrash and speed metal... Just randomly mentioned progressive metal in the piece of writing about them.
Not to seem nasty or anything but symphony x, dream theater and similar are progressive metal. They bare much fewer similarities to trivium than say metallica, sodom or other thrash bands do. Even if we don't call them metalcore anymore, they have plenty of similarities to metalcore bands still. Crashvirus 09:57, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I realise that rolling stone has the crusade as thrash Here... I'm also noticing that googling "trivium progressive" and a bit of poking around yielded that same review/source quoting them as progressive metal except located at msn music and I think it looks like something out of a promotions kit or similar. Please point out something i've missed - i'm sure it's legit, just doesn't quite look it. Crashvirus 10:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe that Trivium is Progressive Metal. I would like the person that keeps adding it to their genres to explain why he/she thinks that they are. It seems that a ton of bands that don't really fit are being put under the label of "progressive" lately. Zanders5k 05:27, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Yep. I posit that the source is quoting an electronic promotions kit... Which is as such an advertisement. It should be removed Crashvirus 06:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

If you read the section "Trivium is definately metalcore" then it explains why they have these three genres. Basically, it is because it is the only reliable source that can be found, and on here it says thrash, metalcore and progressive. Therefore these must be on the Trivium page. If you can find other reliable sources you are more than welcome to add either extra citation for some of the genres, or extra genres. However, I can not stress enough the importance of the genres being cited. Asics talk ^{Editor review!} 10:56, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I've also found some citation on MTV's website. It says Thrash and Melodic Death Metalcore. I'm a bit confused about the last one, but seeing as though it is there and a reliable sourcce, I have added it to the article, and given an extra cite for thrash! Asics talk ^{Editor review!} 11:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Asics! In my previous two posts - I noted that the text in the source provided as evidence for them being progressive metal is identical to the text on another website. To me, this suggests that the information used is something like from an electronic promotions kit - and is as such basically an advertisement for the band - provided usually by the label. Roadrunner has similar things for most of it's bands. To me the fact that the text on that source is the same as on another one is very dubious. Very sorry. Made a mistake and didn't notice it was cited on the other site as the review was taken from allmusic Crashvirus 09:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Guys, I can see why the "Progressive Metal" part is there, but if not one person on this Talk page thinks they are prog. metal, whether it is cited or not I'm sure it can be overridden. They are clearly not progressive metal. James25402 14:44, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Trivium is NOT metalcore. They are thrash. And Lamb of God is NOT metalcore, either. I listen to well over 100 different metalcore bands. I know what I am talking about.

To be quite brutally honest, no one cares whether you claim to know what you are talking about or not. Please provide sources, we don't use original research here. J Milburn 18:00, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, go listen to early slayer, Anthrax, Megadeth, Abattoir, Annihilator, Laaz Rockit and such and tell me how they are thrash. These guys are obviously trying very hard to market themselves as thrash just because the fans want to be "true metal". Yeah it sounds gay but they are being marketed as a product not a band.

what ive noticed its hard for bands to be labeld as pure thrash metal. Only a few bands do it now days like Slayer, the haunted and Sodom. And only 'cause Roadrunner says Triviums Thrash doesnt mean they play thrash, roadrunner labels Cradle Of filth as Black metal and they are defenatly not black allmost not metal at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blackmage Daggoth (talk • contribs) 18:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

We're not sourcing the thrash metal thing to RoadRunner, but to AMG. J Milburn 18:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Why is heavy metal in the genre list? Trivium is not even close to heavy metal. Metalcore/Thrash metal describes them well. -- FatalError (talk | contribs) 03:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Metalcore and thrash metal are both genres of heavy metal. However, I agree with your edits- heavy metal is best in the lead, while we can list more specific genres in the infobox. J Milburn (talk) 20:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Advertisement

I noticed this had been labelled as an advertisement and I have to agree.. It is seriously biased pro-trivium and if its because there is a legion of trivium fanboys who are continually editing the page then I would recommend semi-protection - either way this page has to be made more balanced. What about a criticism section or is anything thats even slightly against the fanboy mindset treated as blasphemy?

Alexgmcm 13:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Critisism section would be good. I know there has been a lot of critisism over their newest album. And if you look at some old edits there are lots of people saying "James Hetfield Rip off" and stuff like that. So if cited correctly a criticism section containing information on how Trivium's new sound is thought to be similar to Metallica's or something like that would be good! Asics talk ^{Editor review!} 14:53, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I second Alexgmcm's notion of a criticism section. If you would read my exchanges with Isilioth on this very talk page, and a few select reviews in the metal archives[1] concerning trivium albums, you would find there are many in the metal underground that are intensely hateful of trivium (I, for one, am intentionally not capitalizing their name!) and question their intentions and credibility in their music. I myself find the music to be robotic and contrived, thrash only in that they are going through the motions of playing the music, but don't understand it. Skilled in instrumentation, but not able to make a genuine note. Anyway, I recall, rummaging through this articles edits, that a criticism section was created, though erased due to POV statements, and I believe the removal was somewhat justified. A criticism section supported by citations, however, is completely necessary. I do not know where one would find citations to support the criticism, though I know they are out there. Sadly, many trivium fans would not like this, therefore, I don't know if it will stay up. I assume the previous criticism section was erased for this very reason. At any rate, those were my thoughts on the issue. Cronos12390 05:12, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

To be honest it's not really a criticism being likened to one of the greatest metal bands of all time, and your idols and inspiration as a guitarist. Surely that's good thing for them? Maurauth ^(...) 08:39, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I see what you're saying (it's Cronos, too lazy to log in!), but it's one thing to be "likened", and another to be accused of plagiarism. The critics of trivium will tell you they blatantly ripped off Metallica and all those other bands that influenced them (not hard to do, really). Let me give a similar example within another artistic media: the novel Eragon borrows plot elements from star wars, lord of the rings, and varying other epics of the modern day. However, this "borrowing", in the eyes of critics, was so glaring it equates to plagiarism and makes for a contrived work. Having watched the movie, I can say, anyone that watched star wars could see about 6 things within 30 minutes that was completely ripped off from the series. A musical example of plagiarism, for me, was the band creed and Pearl Jam. Anyway, I see what you mean, but I don't think you see the implications of what they are saying when they say trivium's sound is far too similar to old Metallica's. 68.107.196.211 18:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

A lot of people on here are saying trivium is not "metal" they are metal core or whatever. but some say they are thrash metal and so on. does it really matter? with all the fucking metal genres out here today. everything is so diverse, everybody is doing their own thing, everyone has their own style. thus making it almost impossible to truly classify a band in a particular genre. remember the 80's? when their was hip/hop, rock and metal. and that was all there was. that's the way it should be. maybe today metal should be known as metal, and 80's metal. 80's metal obviously being better.

How is 80's metal better? Isn't that a subjective statement? Wasn't there also jazz, blues, funk, soul, country, and bluegrass back in the 80's? Anyway, many bands come under fire in the metal community for being perceived to be too commercial. I think classifying a genre for the purpose of identification is integral to an encyclopedia, abstract ruminations concerning genre aside (I understand, though, I think in the abstract too many times to get upset at others for it.). Oh, and please sign your comments with four tildes (~). Ok.... Cronos12390 16:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how this is written as an advertisment, show some sort of quotes to that effect please... Also; to everyone who is insulting and criticising them as talentless, I'm sure you can't write and play such a great album as Ember to Inferno at the age of 17? Maurauth 20:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Great, again, is a subjective term. Some would say that it is NOT a great album, it is all relative. Perhaps one could not write such an album at 17, but then again, Venom and Slayer were both consisting of young members when they released albums (Kerry King was about 18 or 17 when Show No Mercy came out, I believe), so I wouldn't say it's a particularly amazing thing. Being 16, I couldn't really tell you if I could write the same album at 17, but then again, would I want to? I believe the term "advertisement" is misleading, but the intent is to imply that it is far too pro-trivium in that it says nothing negative about them (yes, there is criticism of trivium that comes from the mouth of someone other than an angry death metal fan or a KVLT black metaller!). As for playing their material, technical skill does not equal great music (Yes, Heafy was 17, but he had been playing for 4 or 5 years, anyone that played that long could probably play the albums material if they had practiced as much as I think he did). Michael Angelo Batio is a great guitarist in regard to technicality, but a rather poor musician to my ears, as his music relies on his technical skill and conveys little emotion. I also find the actions of some trivium fans to be reprehensible regarding their treatment of criticism. I recall someone spammed my youtube channel with offensive statements after I disagreed with him about trivium, and I also recall a certain user vandalizing Isilioth's user page, most likely for his statements concerning trivium (he knows who he is) :(. For any reading this, you do not get your point across, and you only lessen the validity of your argument. One should not fear reprisals for disagreeing with someone. 68.107.196.211 18:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Isilioth got what was coming to him, I was doing that not about Trivium, but about his arguments on the Cradle page. I wouldn't mind a criticisms page despite being an avid Trivium fan, but I don't think another 'LOL THEY R LIEK MATELICA ON THAR NEW ALBUM!!!!' comment on the page would be appropriate. P.s. I'm quite vberkvlt myself and still like them :) Maurauth ^(...) 08:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Isilioth is highly abrasive to those that disagree with him, and at times, I admit, comes off as an elitist asshole. However, vandalism only proves him right when he calls you an immature fanboy. Argue politely, but don't resort to such methods, for the sake of your own argument. Anyway, even though you weren't arguing about trivium, it's along those same lines of someone being unable to dissent without something happening. Honestly, I think the whole kvlt thing is foolish. Integrity is one thing, but black metal has so many flaws because of their musical ethos, while respectable, I could never listen to much of it. It has it's moments though (Freezing Moon one of it's best IMO). I wouldn't call myself kvlt(I listen to too much CC, COB, and BLS to say that!). Matt Heafy is a huge black metal fan, I understand. But, I mean, a criticisms page wouldn't look like that if anyone over the age of 11 wrote it! Cronos12390 19:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't disagree that a criticisms page would be a good addition, as long as there's citations and it's written properly. Yeah, Matt used to wear lots of Black Metal band shirts on stage, and he used to play in a BM band. Maurauth ^(...) 19:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

1. (you shouldnt have to to realise this, but) If you had read that article from MetalHammer i quoted here, you would know that he listened to a couple of black metal bands to terrify the other kids at school. (yes yes, this is 'my' opinion, but that = poser). No 'troo' BM fan would be in a metalcore band. 2. His BM band was a one-man band, most likely a bedroomBM band when he was a teenager. Theres been thousands, big whoop. 3. Now I know youre going to jump down my throat for this, but Matt Heafy is half white, half asian. Black metal is very anti-racemixing. 4. He wore those bm shirts to try get some street cred. But all this shit on this talk page has got little to do with this gayass article. And for the record (although I think its idiotic, and is for teenage nerds), Maurath, you cant be "vberkvlt" and listen to trivium. Fail. Isilioth 11:40, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

1. What link, I'm sure he said that jokingly anyway, you could 'scare kids at school' with bloody Nirvana, don't need BM, I never said he considered himself a 'trve' BM fan anyway, and if he wants to express himself in a thrash band then he can.

2. I read somewhere that he was in a BM band with a few people not just one. I didn't say it was notable I just said that he liked BM.

3. Again, I didn't say he was a bloody inner circle kvlt black metaller.

4. I doubt he would wear a t-shirt for street cred at all, he even said in some interview that he wears shirts of bands he likes, like when he wore the metallica shirt at download.

How is the article homosexual in any way? And you're the one that started talking about BM anyway. Isiluth I can listen to what music I want. Maurauth ^(...) 17:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, black metal itself IS a form of music, so I would suppose you don't need to conform to a set of ideologies concerning musical ethics to play it. I recall a review in which the reviewer said Heafy was a BM fan (it was on the metal archives under The Crusade reviews) and had exceptional knowledge concerning the genre. He also said that trivium was just a band Heafy formed to make money, and that if he made music he actually wanted to make, it would be very different from his stuff with trivium. About the whole race mixing thing, I don't know that ALL black metal is anti-racemixing (there are bands from the middle east, mexico, etc) but I suppose you have a point. It's entirely possible he does that whole shirt thing for street cred (I once saw a member of fallout boy in a Carcass shirt- made me cringe!), but I can't say for sure. No 'troo' BM would play in a metalcore band, YES, but who's to say Matt stayed 'Tr00'? People change ideologies at the drop of a hat. But, as I've said in the past, the kvlt thing is so retarded you really can't be 'vberkvlt' and listen to music (my opinions on trivium stand, however)! But, really, I just veered off topic for a moment, that's all, we actually were talking about the criticism's page and whether it had a place in the article. Cronos12390 19:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

If he's said to be a black metal fan then I don't think he's being a poser wearing a shirt, he's just wearing a shirt of a band he likes. Nobody said Matt was a kvlt fan anyway, just that he liked BM and enjoyed playing it; I like BM and enjoy playing it and wouldn't call myself vberkvlt. FOB player in a grind shirt? Probably some sort of joke, I'm surprised anyone that likes that sort of music would see FOB live heh. Maurauth ^(...) 20:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

NEVER went to a fallout boy concert. I'm hoping you didn't infer that. I'd kill myself halfway into it if I ever had to suffer through that retarded noise! Just saw an interview where one of them had a Carcass shirt on (Heartwork, was the album displayed). I've always thought of Carcass as a Death/Melodic Death metal band, at least in the later material. Early stuff, straight grindcore, or goregrind. I'm not too much into Carcass though. Anyway, yeah, BM requires only that you can play the notes, the music won't suddenly stop if you don't have the right ethos or a certain kvlt quality. Cronos12390 23:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Maurath...I am not the one who started talking about BM. I hadnt even been in this 'discussion' for the Advertisement until that last post. FFS. Nirvana doesnt scare anyone dude. All the kids at school listen to them. Noone ever called him 'trve', the idea is absurd from any perspective, but YOU are the one who said he was a 'huge black metal fan'. Cronos, it does not matter what country you come from, black metal can be enjoyed by all cultures, as long as people keep in mind that it is of predominantly of indo-european roots. "Race is important, racism is not". While there are some racist black metallers, the thing everyone is against is race-mixing. Heafy, being a product of two different continents, is what BMers stand against. Combine that with him being in a populist metalcore band, not following any extreme metal ideology, and FAIL. Black Metal, without 'the right ethos', lacks. That is why it is dead. Maurath, i just think that this article sucks. Can this whole talk page just be scraped clean? There is no need for all this on a trivium discussion. Join a forum or something. Isilioth 05:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I said he was a black metal fan. Does that mean he has the ideologies of the genre? Not necessarily. I'm sure there are corporate executives that can listen to anti-capitalist punk and enjoy it (conceivably). I meant the statement in terms of his musical taste, not his ethos. Yes, BM made by someone that isn't "Trve" might lack a certain quality, but it's still possible to play it, just poorly. Never said it would be GOOD or TRUE black metal, now did I? I know almost no one who listens to black metal in my personal life, so I'll take your word for it on the race mixing thing. But can we simply drop the subject? I personally don't care what Heafy listens to. We're just dragging on about something that matters even less than whatever it was me and Maurauth were discussing.Cronos12390 15:26, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone have any reasons other than the lack of a criticism page for why the Advertisment template is there? I'm going to remove it unless anyone disagrees. Maurauth ^{(talktome)(wha?)} 17:34, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Nah, remove if you want. It's pretty well established here for any editors wanting to create a criticisms page that one may be made. 68.107.196.211 19:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Trivium are definately metalcore

Trivium is a metalcore emo screamo band, cmon, theyre thrash as britney spears is grindcore, if they were thrash, were are the brutal thrash metal riffs? where is the thrash metal vocalization? trivium voice sounds like bullet for my valentine, thats definately not thrash. I mean, you cannot compare bands like slayer, megadeth, exodus, kreator, sodom, sepultura, with trivium, the sound is brutally different.

Metalcore? yes, emo screamo? no, trash metal? It's disputable but i would say no. Claiming to be thrash metal doesn't make you thrash but the crusade has been labeled thrash by some critics. M3tal H3ad 06:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Shall we leave it just as thrash-influenced metalcore and metalcore (earlier material), thrash (recent material)? Or metalcore (earlier material), thrash-influenced (recent material)? Asics talk ^{Editor review!} 10:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

• Why not just put Trivium as "Metalcore" for early material and "Thrash" for The Crusade? Trivium9786 21:52, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The people who call them Thrash are the people who predominantly listen to nu metal and metalcore whose only exposure to Thrash are "The Big Four". Inhumer 02:09, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

And even then, its usually just Slayer and Metallica. Inhumer 02:09, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

a) nu metal is shit. b) metalcore is shit, like how triviums early stuff is shit. c) the crusade, and most likely everything after it, is thrash metal. everything before that is metalcore DragonDance 15:25, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with C Trivium9786 22:42, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

How about we actually just cite a reliable source and be done with this.

"Trivium formed in 2000 and soon built a buzz around the Orlando, FL, metal community with their blend of metalcore, thrash, and progressive metal flourish."

- Johnny Loftus. Trivium. All Music Guide. Retrieved on 2007-04-21..
There is three. Remember, what we think about the band is irrelevent; what reliable sources say is all that matters. --Wildnox(talk) 22:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Well I obviously don't have a source for it, but when I went to see Trivium live, Matt announced one of the songs as 'as thrash as we get, I want you guys to...' I suppose that counts as them announcing the genre of their Crusade songs? ALSO; If we're going by reliable sources as we should, every music magazine calls them thrash these days. Maurauth ^(...) 07:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

If you can find the exact issue(s) that they were referred to as Thrash in, then it can be added. Asics talk ^{Editor review!} 18:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

It's kinda pointless for him to do that, at least in my opinion. We already have a source that lists thrash as one of the genres. --Wildnox(talk) 20:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh shitwow, if theres someone on the internet who said theyre thrash, then they MUST BE!!!111 Fail, wikipedia. Isilioth 00:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

There is a big difference between just any person on the internet and those who are considered reliable sources by wikipedia.(such as the one cited above) What would you rather have us do? Take your word for it? --Wildnox(talk) 04:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Isilioth if you read anything other than kvlt-weekly, you'd see that most magazines, music based websites AND the band themselves call their genre Thrash. Maurauth ^(...) 09:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Maurauth, if you weren't so incompetent you would have read my post further up this page. Just in case you get lost, I'll post it right here for you:

"I posted this on Asics talk page in response to something he left me: YES objection. Just because they themselves say theyre thrash metal does not make them so. They are just using this lately to try market themselves as real metal (See: front cover of latest MetalHammer magazine). Across of the cover of that mag, it said "Trivium: Destroyers of False Metal" and the quote from matt heafy: "Fuck metalcore...We're for real". Which is complete idiocy. Their new material may be influenced by early Metallica, but does not change the fact that they are a METALCORE band. They were always a metalcore band before they included a Metallica influence. This makes them a metalcore band (early), thrash metal- influenced metalcore band (recent). Still, its important to realise that any sources such as myspace and anything the band/promoters are responsible for, is biased as a marketing tool. "Heavy metal" sells. Isilioth 05:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)" Someone is now labelling them Progressive Metal in the infobox. WTF? Isilioth 09:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Isilioth you don't seem to understand... what you think of the band doesn't matter, what reliable sources call them is what matters. Maurauth ^(...) 10:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Maurath....you think allmusicguide.com is a "reliable source"? The fact that the site name is 'ALLmusicguide' suggests they take on too much, and having read various articles from the site, I can say that they do not know metal very well. Why dont you use metal-archives.com? I don't like them, but they hit the nail on the head with genres. Isilioth 02:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem with metal-archives.com is that it is a user run database, and is never considered a reliable source on wikipedia. AMG on the other hand has been used in many articles, including featured ones. --Wildnox(talk) 03:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Metal-archives has been used in more (metal) articles than allmusicguide... And err...WIKIPEDIA is a "user run database" also. In my experience m-archives gets genres right ALOT more than wikipedia. Isilioth 06:46, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so I'll go on over to metal-archives and change the genre of Burzum to Power Pop, and then since it says it on m-a I can change the genre here too? Also; the band themselves call it Thrash, and I think they're a BIT of a reliable source about themselves. Maurauth ^(...) 08:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you didn't read my what I said up there. Not just anyone can edit metal archives, like wikipedia. Quote from metal archives help page: "If your member rank is Veteran or higher, you can modify all the fields except the band's name and its genre." Im pretty sure the person who adds a bands sets the genre, which is then revised by the admin (EVERYTHING is sent to the admin, and then they make sure it is acceptable before uploading it). Now it may just be me, but I think that sounds a bit more reliable than wikipedia, where you dont even need to register to edit pages. Team of people who know what theyre talking about...or...anyone. Umm? Isilioth 12:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't matter it's still open to be edited, and they're as much as a team of people who know what they're talking about as this article has. Maurauth ^(...) 13:01, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

HAHAHAHAHA. You have a problem with not being able to read things properly, surely. Isilioth 03:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL, you would do well to read this article. Maurauth ^(...) 08:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

You would do well to not dismiss everything I say. AMG is an unreliable source for metal-related genres. Metalarchives is. Isilioth 14:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Please don't get into an editing war! Metal-archives is not really that reliable, so it is best to avoid if at all possible. The other source also does not appear to be too reliable, but I stand to be corrected. I think that if editing wars continue the page may have to be fully protected and I am sure that this is not what is intended or wanted by either of you. Asics talk ^{Editor review!} 15:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, as I've been actively improving all the Trivium related articles I would be upset, but Isilioth is doing this just for the sake of being obtuse, I don't think he cares if it's protected. I'm looking for a better source for the genre and in the meantime we might as well just keep the current citations from AMG. Maurauth ^(...) 18:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Metal Archives is a source for many metal bands (METAL metal bands). I think its funny how this now calls them Progressive Metal. Oh, wiki.Isilioth 01:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Well yeah, anyone knows that they're not Prog, but that's what the page says. [2] cites them as 'Trivium foregoes the trappings of metalcore, favoring time tested post-thrash' good enough? Maurauth ^(...) 07:48, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Sources, sources, sources. As long as a source says it, then it belongs on wikipedia. Only reliable sources! You wouldn't know a reliable source if it danced around on the screen in front of you. Now quick, tell me what I just said was wrong! Don't forget to report me for being uncivil too. Isilioth 02:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

At least we agree that as long as a reliable source says it, it should be on the wiki. I haven't reported you yet, but if you keep it up I will. What's wrong with metalunderground? Maurauth ^(...) 08:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

http://ultimate-guitar.com/reviews/compact_discs/trivium/the_crusade/index.html Maurauth ^(...) 08:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

That is a horrible source. And if you didnt notice, I was being sarcastic when i said "Only reliable sources!". Isilioth 11:40, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

What's a horrible source? Maurauth ^(...) 17:13, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

The ultimate-guitar.com one. Isilioth 05:30, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

From Now on ppl just need to read this and shut up. Maurauth is one of the most correct and intelligent persons on here for one if your on here posting trivium is not thrash ask yourself one question who made you the commisioner of genres while you are sitting at your computer arguing back and forth there are specialists comming out with issues of metal magazines that are classifying triviums new album as thrash and because the band is gonna stay that way from now on they will forever be thrash if you dont like that fact then go cry about it i mean basically all these guys are doing is whining about why ppl are saying trivium is thrash when they're not especially isilioth this is a character right here we got a guy thats sitting here telling us all kinds of shyt about trivium bieng this and trivium not bieng this if you think that real fans of trivium are gonna just say oh you know what that guy is right they're not thrash then ur an idiot. another thing is calling these so called ppl fanboys "boys" is such a disrespectful term and if i knew where you lived id kick your azz myself and show you who the real boys are think twice before classifying a whole fanbase as boys. --Cheffboyardee123 11:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Man, I don't want to be mean, but you SCREAM fanboy! It's like, all you're really doing is saying "they're thrash, because I say so, and they'll ALWAYS be that way!". Fanboy isn't calling someone a boy, it's a way of saying someone is a huge fan of something, almost to the point of obsession. Let me point out 5 details that lead me to think you are a fanboy (by using the generally agreed upon criterion.

• 1.You keep insisting you're right. Period.
• 2.You say anyone that disagrees with you is an idiot and has no idea what they're talking about, regardless of how they debate their point or how well put together the argument against you is.
• 3.You don't seem to use formal language in the talk page (a place where you should use WHOLE WORDS)
• 4.In the last paragraph, you said "if I knew where you live....". Well, you don't, and as far as I know, you can't kick someones ass (it's spelled "ass", by the way, not "azz") over the internet.
• 5.The first 8 lines or so of what you said read like a long rant from a person that is either insane, or unable to puncuate properly.

Maurauths a cool guy, but I'm kind of sad he has you for support. I mean, Isilioth is one extreme, but you my friend, are the other, simply on an opposite end. Cronos12390 13:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

It's funny because all but point 3 of that list apply to Isilioth. ≈ Maurauth ^(09F9) 17:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

That was sort of my point.... 68.107.196.211 19:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

http://www.myspace.com/trivium

go there, listen and learn before you say anything about Trivium they are Thrash.

Seeing SLAYER on sunday HELL YEAH!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rakarno (talk • contribs) 02:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

SLAYER tomorrow HELL YEA! M3tal H3ad 04:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

redirecting/disambiguation

in Trivium_(disambiguation) and logic, probably among others, "trivium" wrongly redirects here. in fact i can't even access the page "Trivium, in medieval educational theory." from the trivium disambiguation page.84.248.199.61 08:59, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. Maurauth ^{(talktome)(wha?)} 11:06, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Genre dispute idea

The genre could be changed to Debated with it linking to a section further down the page desscribing how the bands genre has been disputed by fans, non fans and the media. Similar to the artcles od HIM and My Chemical Romance and formally to the articles of Cradle of Filth and Devildriver. Inhumer 19:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

But the genre isn't as debated as those bands. MCR, for example, is labelled almost every type of rock, from alternative to pop punk to emo to post-hardcore. With Trivium, there isn't much of a debate. It's between thrash and metalcore. So there's really no need. -- FatalError (talk | contribs) 20:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Melodic Death Metalcore

...Is impossible.

Metalcore is a fusion of Melodic Death Metal, Thrash Metal, and Hardcore Punk, with Hardcore dominating the song structure and Death Metal riffs on occasion. I have never heard of Melodic Death Metalcore, only from MTV, so it is safe to assume that it does not exist. Seriously guys, if you're going to use a "credible source", anything but fucking MTV.

If we're going to say Melodic Death Metalcore is what Trivium is because MTV shat it out, let's put Slipknot as Death Metal.

Here's my credible source: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Di-zXitd8X0

It's from MTV and claims several times that Slipknot is Death Metal. It's a credible source, so it must be true!

-Nonviolence 03:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't believe it either, and I put it there. I also don't believe progressive metal. But to use those sources, you must have all the genres they say they are. Sure MTV gets it wrong, so does everyone else. But I think they are right about the thrash part! I don't know, there's always going to be genre disputes, so I'll leave it down to you lot to discuss, but if you remove the melodic death part, you probably should remove the MTV citation from thrash part as well. Asics talk ^{Editor review!} 16:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I still believe some points are being missed. It isn't a real genre, so it's very logical to keep the real ones and remove the ones we know aren't real... Such as Melodic Death Metalcore. Yes? -Nonviolence 01:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Nonviolence, is your common point in both of these discussions that you don't think that MTV should qualify as a reliable source? Sorry for the mild crosspost, but considering the situation I think it may be helpful to post in both talk pages. --Wildnox(talk) 01:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be Melodic Deathcore a la Bring Me The Horizon? ≈ Maurauth ^{(nemesis~☆)}

I removed "melodic death metalcore" because I agree it's not an adequate (and almost kind of cyclic, given that metalcore is supposed to have melodeath elements already) description of anything... and "progressive metal" because they lack any progressive elements. Nothing against them, they just don't have any. Crashvirus 12:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Well... that seems like POV. Not a reliable source. The genres are from reliable sources. Fair enough we might think "what the heck?" to melodic death metalcore, but its from a reliable source. My point is... if we have one genre cited from a reliable source, then all others mentioned in that source must also be mentioned on here. So, I think we are all in agreement that the MTV one, although a reliable source should be removed, as we already have citation for Thrash, and melodic death metalcore is a bit silly! This means that progressive must be left on, as it is on the other referenced place. Anyone disagreing please say why, and I'm sure we could come to some sort of agreement! Asics talk ^{Editor review!} 14:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think a credible source can be overridden when not one person on this talk page agrees with their classification. The sources are, to my knowledge, only supposed to be used when there are genre disputes. It was never argued that Trivium are a progressive metal band, only that they are a thrash metal band when a lot of people still believe them to be metalcore. Also, it was never actually stated on the current citation that Trivium are a progressive metal band, it clearly says they take elements from progressive metal, but nowhere has that they are a progressive metal band. However, it has thrash metal, metalcore and heavy metal, three genres which almost certainly describe anything Trivium have ever done, under the genres section. I am strongly for progressive metal being removed, as it is highly inaccurate and not one person on the Talk page agrees with it. Who's with me? James25402 16:33, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not. Progressive Metal generally describes one of two things: Music that either experiments in metal ala avant-garde, or metal that progresses among genres as a way of expression. Therefore, replace heavy metal with prog metal, and thrash metal and metalcore stay. Simple 'nuff. -Nonviolence 22:55, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

So you are saying Trivium are a prog. metal band? I hate to make comparisons, but they're nothing like Dream Theater, etc.. Why should prog. metal be there, when it is clear they are only influenced by prog. metal? It is obviously not one of their primary genres. Unless you are saying it is, I've seen nobody on this Talk page agree with the genre being listed, so it should be removed. James25402 09:56, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

If you can find some other credible source that has metalcore and thrash on, then we can remove the prog (and citation from there). However, if you can not, then I guess it must be left, as it says it on that source so...
See what you can find! Asics talk ^{Editor review!} 11:56, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The likelyhood of my finding sources to suggest it is a genre is much higher than the likelyhood of me finding sources to suggest it isn't a genre. For example, I'm guessing there isn't many people arguing out there that trivium isn't progressive metal... Because, quite honestly, it takes virtually zero of the characteristics of progressive metal. Any similarity is basically coincidental. This is the only place I've been where I can actually have this argument in some documented form really. Can you suggest how I might go about showing that your source is not valid?
From the prog metal page, some of the characteristics of progressive metal (characteristics, not requirements though...) are:
elements drawn from power metal, technical metal, jazz fusion and prog rock groups. If we go and look at these articles in turn, we can find that there is a few points that stand out. These include, complex instrumentation, complex time signatures, lengthier songs than usually found in other styles, prominent utilisation of "jazz" type chords as opposed to simple triads and pentatonic scales, polyrhythms and polymetrics (related). Trivium is fairly straight forward in terms of instrumentation, utilisation of instruments, rhythmic constituency (mostly 4/4, possibly some 6/8), chord progressions (and scales) commonly used. They just don't fit. And if we want to be pedantic, the article actually says blend of progressive metal and other styles. I'd suggest that this is because Trivium is more "melodic" than many thrash bands (see Anthrax, Exodus, The Haunted etc.) and this melody could have been dragged over from progressive metal. As far as i'm concerned, things like this are good reasons why Trivium doesn't fit in there, as suggested by other wikipedia articles, which are all supported by sources as well.
Now, sources for Thrash/Metalcore - genre's it does seem to fit with...
This suggests old material was Metalcore, newer is post thrash
this one says thrash and metalcore for old stuff
this one says melodic american thrash, metalcore
here says some mix of metalcore and thrash
another chalking one up for metalcore and thrash
That was just poking around for Metalcore. I'm sure I could find more for thrash specifically based on newer material but frankly I don't find calling them thrash anywhere near as absolutely flat out incorrect as is calling them progressive in any way, shape or form. Will get to why melodic death metalcore is simply a term coined by their PR next. But once again, even that is closer than Prog of any sort. Crashvirus 15:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Another point, Just to add a little weight to my argument - If you search google with the query: Trivium "Progressive Metal" you get about 82k results, For the query: Trivium "thrash" you get about 316k results and for the query: Trivium "metalcore" you get 244k. Similarly. Just trying to give some more sway so that people will give some consideration to removing that genre - because it isn't really an accurate description. Crashvirus 11:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I am not disputing the fact that Trivium are not progressive, but what I was saying was that the source where it came from was reliable, therefore if you are taking citation from this source, I do think that the other should be mentioned. However, if the sources that you have for thrash and metalcore are reliable, i.e. not from a site that can be edited by the public, then add those in as extra citation for the thrash and metalcore part. I don't particularly have much time to check each source and that add it at the moment, but if you could, it would be great! For progressive, I think even though it is from a valid source it is quite ridiculous, so in this instance, perhaps WP:IAR may come into play, and forget about it.

Just one further thing, you seem to like Trivium a lot and/or are interested in editing their page(s). So why not join The WikiProject Trivium! Anyway, see what you can do with those sources, remember this is important (amongst other parts of this page)! Asics talk ^{Editor review!} 15:43, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Believe it or not I actually don't use wikipedia that often... Looking through, they appear to be reasonably valid from what I can gather (as you suggested, no one from public can edit them for example) - this would be a lot more clear cut with something academic but *shrugs* what can you do... I quite like the WP:IAR link though and will have to remember it. Sorry this one was me but I forgot to sign. Crashvirus 05:54, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup of recent events section

I cleaned that section up a bit, some of the grammar and information was incorrect, and it was badly written. Trivium32 19:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Added The Crusade section

Much of the stuff in recent events just didnt really pertain to recent events very well, so I created The Crusade section and added new material and shifted old material around.

Progressive metal

I checked the source for that (allmusic.com), and the source never actually says they play progressive metal, it says they blend elements from metalcore, thrash metal, and progressive metal, which is very different than saying they actually play progressive metal. Consensus on this page appears to be that Trivium does not sound anything like true progressive metal bands such as Dream Theater or Symphony X, so I'm removing progressive metal from the genre listings. --Leon Sword 21:22, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I don't think they sound like either of those bands at all if you look at their playing styles. Trivium32 22:32, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Except for the song "the Crusade". :p --nlitement ^[talk] 12:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Metal Hammer's Best albums of 2006

Can someone please verify Triviums place on Metal Hammer's list of Best albums of 2006. The article originally said #6, but it was changed to #9 recently (without any edit sumary i might add). The citation is a paper copy of Metal Hammer Magazine(Issue 161)... Fenrisulfr talk 16:32, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Image in infobox

The image used in the infobox is unacceptable- the fair use rationale suggests it is being used as an image of the poster, when in fact it is being used as an image of the band. There is no reason we could not have a free image in the infobox, and, as such, I am removing it. Feel free to replace it with a free image. J Milburn 15:57, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I have placed the best group photo on Commons into the infobox. I think a photo showing only Heafy, or perhaps something like this would be better. We can discuss that, but could someone who knows the band please identify the members on the photo I have placed in the infobox, in the caption? Thanks. J Milburn 16:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Article seriously short of citations

There are just too many things in this article currently unattributed to any source for this to have any chance of becoming a GA. If you like, I can go through it very liberally with {{fact}} tags, but that perhaps would not do the article much good. J Milburn 16:30, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Asics tells me he is going to add some citations- I'll wait until he has done that before I get tagging. J Milburn 17:41, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Things I have noticed in my copyedit...

Ok, I am now going to run through the entire article, copyediting where needed, and, though I intended to tag with {{fact}} where needed, there are too many instances. I'll allow Asics to try and get some citing done before going through like that. This is a list of improvements that need to be made that I can't do and can't easily tag for-

• Generally, we do not have refs in the lead- as it is a summary, everything said there should also be said elsewhere, and it should be referenced in the main body of the article instead.
• Do we have the name of the original singer?
• Was Heafy a member of the black metal band before Trivium, paralell to it, or both?
• Should we know Mike Radford? Is he a member of some other band?
• Can we have more details about the lineup changes in the early days section?
• Is the information about the Metallica album really needed in that much detail in the history section? I personally think it could pass with a mention in the discography section, but that's about it...
• The last paragraph on the The Crusade section looked so much like original research and unsourced speculation that I removed it. It was this-

When performing live, Corey will sometimes take over the screaming vocals. Unofficially, it has been said that Matt damaged his voice during a show and Corey had to take over from there on out, although this has never been announced. Many people feel that this is supported due to the statements made by Heafy regarding the change in vocal style. Corey also screams during parts of songs that require singing and screaming vocals at the same time, which is impossible for one vocalist to do live. Furthermore whilst Matt has mostly abandoned his screaming for a more thrash metal/Hetfield-like sound, some people believe that he sounds much heavier live than he does on the albums. It also has been reported that he screams some parts that are sung on the album at live shows.

There are other issues too, but those are just little things that don't really deserve much discussion that I came across while copyediting the article. J Milburn 17:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

• Brad Lewter
• I know he was a member of a black metal band before Trivium and possibly during his time in Trivium. I can't remember whether the BM band was Capaharnaum or Mindscar, I vaguely remember hearing one being a Thrash band and the other BM.
• Mike Radford seems to be another member of the BM band, Mindscar I believe.
• I'll have a go later, bit busy with some coursework atm.
• There's a large amount of controversy about how Trivium are 'copying' Metallica so I think it's probably good to have a paragraph or so about it.

For further citations, please can people not remove them uncited material (the stuff that isn't glaringly obvious how stupid it is) for now, I'm collecting together all my old MetalHammer and Kerrang magazines from the past few years and I'll try to find all information about Trivium in them. ≈ Maurauth ^(Ravenor) 20:29, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Aha! Mindscar Capaharnaum. ≈ Maurauth ^(Ravenor) 20:37, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Can I just say, Metal-archives isn't classed as valid citation, because the general public can edit there. But, we'll find other citation for EVERYTHING! :D Asics talk ^{Editor review!} 20:45, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Ohh I know that you can't use M-A for a citation, but the information on that page is as correct as I remember, and we should be able to use the facts to find citations for them. ≈ Maurauth ^(Ravenor) 20:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

That's fine then! I think it will take longer than first thought, but within a few days we should get it upto an article that will pass GA! Asics talk ^{Editor review!} 21:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Capaharnaum are a Tech Death band and I think he was more of a Session Vocalist than he was an actual member. Inhumer 01:47, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a big job!

I'm going to go through and put the citation needed tag on everything I believe needs citing. As it is taking me ages finding bits that need citing, then after that will cite them! Asics talk ^{Editor review!} 20:17, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

A few things

I think it is pretty much there now. Just a few ideas (anyone can add to this list if they want):

• Re-write lead section, needs to be a little longer. Not sure where to start really. I'll have a go tonight if no one else has done it, but I'll give someone else the opportunity.
• Cite the remaining chart positions and sales. I've looked, but am struggling to find citation.
  

That's all I can think of but lets see what we can do! Asics talk ^{Editor review!} 15:55, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Right, you are going to want to expand the citations as well. Sorry, I am not gonna be able to help out much tonight (not that I have helped out much so far, apart from the occasional push) but making use of citation templates, mostly for webpages. The key information is the title and URL (which we already have for most of these) the access date, the publisher, and, slightly less importantly, the author, and date of writing/publication. Format is also easy (usually HTML) and the other information is pretty optional, and not, as far as I see, awfully valid. J Milburn 16:04, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and do you think you could work in some of the things I noticed in my copyedit, with sources? Maurauth answered, perhaps he would prefer to do that? J Milburn 16:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Generally, we do not have refs in the lead- as it is a summary, everything said there should also be said elsewhere, and it should be referenced in the main body of the article instead.

Done, but maybe it should be longer.

Do we have the name of the original singer?

Brad Lewter, and he is mentioned now in the article

Was Heafy a member of the black metal band before Trivium, paralell to it, or both?

He joined Mindscar in 2002, but as far as I am aware, the band has now split-up. And it does mention "Heafy also spent time in the Orlando black metal band Mindscar".

Should we know Mike Radford? Is he a member of some other band?

We do not need to know Mike Radford, I checked and he was a member of Mindscar, and so I removed it.

Can we have more details about the lineup changes in the early days section?

I've mentioned all the parts that is necessary about the changes.

Is the information about the Metallica album really needed in that much detail in the history section? I personally think it could pass with a mention in the discography section, but that's about it...

Perhaps it is not necessary in as much detail, but it is well written and cited, and does not take up that much room, so it may as well be there.

I'll have a go with the citation templates, but the lead section does need to be a little longer as well. Asics talk ^{Editor review!} 20:24, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Excellent job. Now we just need refs for the last couple of stats, and an expansion of the references. When we've done that, it should be ready to nominate. J Milburn 16:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Semi protection

In an attempt to stem the vandalism this article has had recently, I have semi-protected the page. J Milburn 23:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Thrashcore!

Metalcore + Thrash = Thrashcore! =]

Thrashcore + no citation = not included! Get some valid citation and we'll put it on! Asics talk ^{Editor review!}

I think [s]he's joking. J Milburn 20:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Regardless, the definition is wrong in all accounts. Thrashcore is sped up Hardcore, and Crossover Thrash is Thrash Metal with Hardcore dominating the sound/speed/vocals. -Motleh 23:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I actually think they make a good point; Trivium can be regarded as Metalcore and Thrash. I personally refer to them as thrash. welshy1791

GA

We just need a few more things citing, and then it should be ready. Everything now has correct templates! I would appreciate it if someone could try and find them, because I have tried and failed! Asics talk ^{Editor review!} 20:41, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Can you not find cites for any numbers of sales for those albums? J Milburn 20:49, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I've spent ages looking, and I've cited all that I could find. Asics talk 20:55, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Single/album sales and chart positions

Well, I have just found a ref for Ascendancy going gold, but I couldn't find one at all for its UK chart position. I think, once we have had a good go at finding refs for those, we should just remove the information we are incapable of verifying, because we are not going to get this to GA with those tags. J Milburn 11:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Which genre to use in the lead?

As the band has shown, according to the sources, both thrash metal and metalcore influences on different albums, and there is a serious debate about which of these genres is best attributed to them, the most neutral and factually correct thing to say in the lead would be to call them a heavy metal band. If we take it that they could be considered either a metalcore or a thrash metal band, both these genres are subgenres of heavy metal. However, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter, and there are other areas of the article that could use work. Does anyone agree/disagree? J Milburn 10:19, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Another genre addition

Hey, I rarely edit the Trivium article anymore, mainly due to my strong hatred of them post-Ascendancy. Because of this, I'm not sure how "welcome" genre discussions are here, considering the main band articles I edit (Cradle of Filth, Coheed and Cambria) have heated discussions on the genres. Either way, I have an addition to the genre list, and a source to go with it. Even though "Metalcore" is listed, this source lists them being Melodic metalcore. Permission to add? ≈ The Haunted Angel 22:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I'd give it a miss. Just opens a whole can of worms. Not to mention the similarity to a genre already up there. I don't really think it would improve the article. J Milburn 22:41, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought that it'd be too similar to metalcore already being up there. Just another thought, and a source for you. ≈ The Haunted Angel 00:37, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Fro mthe Outside looking in

in every discussion about Trivium's "genre" it seems we are driven between metalcore, which apparently sucks, and Thrash metal, which is apparently good.

Look, I don't know why this argument means so much to people, but think of it this way.

no matter what the genre, people will still Listen to and like it.

So If it's thrash, it will have an audience. If it's metalcore, it will have an audience. I've heard it referred to as "mallcore for the sheep", and eithetr way, i really don't give a rat's ass.

all i realize is that I like the band despite what their genre is.

so flip a coin. play rock paper scissors.i don't care what you do, just PICK A GENRE AND STICK TO IT.

also, someone fix the part on Corey's article that mentions Dimebag being the best guitarist. that is opinion. not fact. :/

seriously, of all the pointless shit to argue about.

you might as well be arguing about how to describe a color. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.17.201.11 (talk) 21:41, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

• This is an encyclopedia, not a place to throw out your opinions. If someone disagrees about a war, does it automatically state that its wrong in an encyclopedia?! No. I do agree on the genre dispute, just leave it at Metalcore and Thrash §hðwñðmêr¢¥ 22:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think what the IP says makes an awful lot of sense. A lot of time has been spent by excellent editors disputing the genre of the band, instead of actually improving the article. At the end of the day, it doesn't really effect the article if we have the 'wrong' subgenre of metal- it is a tiny detail. Of course, getting into a dispute about whether the dispute is worthwhile is extremely counter-productive. I thank the anonymous user for their observations; I think they are very relevant- the time for bitching about the genre has passed, let's get on with keeping the article vandalism free and up to date, and, if we are feeling active, to good article (which it isn't too far from) or even featured article. J Milburn 22:22, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

VANDALISM!!

I am not used to editing wikipedia and i do not have enough knowlege about trivium to edit this page but there is a lot of untrue material on this site, could someont with the relevant knowlege and experience please rectify it. i am sorry if i have done anything wrong or used bad etiquette but i am new -- 195.200.134.178 (talk) 18:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

What helps with genre

I know its good to have sources here to make others realize the genre, but there is one best way to get to know what genre Trivium is. The way is: listening and comparing. Im a huge Thrash fan, i listen thrash metal every single day, I know hundreds of thrash bands and other genre bands, i like to search new genres and new bands on thrash for example. By listening the music and comparing it to other thrash bands and other genres, you can start hearing what genre they are the closest or the truelist, its not only the best wat to get to know what the band is playing, but its more easier and wisely way to get to know genres than just because some people have said something on some websites or on interviews. My opinion is, Trivium is Thrash, but, they have much of metalcore influences, i have all the albums and i can tell it just by listening. They have fast guitars, fast drums and basses, musical and playing style is pure thrash, so is Matt Heafys singin style, but that is more thrash like in the new album, Ember to Inferno and Ascendancy voice is more metalcore than thrash like. Hoply you get my drift of what im trying to tell you here. Listen people, listen to the goddamn music not what some artists or recordlabel bastards or some idiots are saying in the intervies and shit, use your ears and brains to listen the music, not what some people are talking.

If someone has anything to agree with this, or to say am i wrong, please feel free to say it here, I would love to discous about it :)

Sadly, that's not the way things work on Wikipedia. You need sources if you want to put a genre in a band's infobox. Yes, they were metalcore on their first 2 albums and more straight-up thrash on The Crusade, but even that album still had metalcore. One more thing: Who are you? Remember to sign your posts. Dark Executioner (talk) 17:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)Dark Executioner

I have just been reading most of the arguments re: Trivium's "genre", can we not just put "Heavy Metal" ? Keep it simple people! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vulcan5978 (talk • contribs) 15:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Guys you need to read this! http://www.lordsofmetal.nl/showinterview.php?id=370&lang=en Interview with Trivium in 2003.

They call your music 'Melodic Death Metalcore'. Who came up with that name?
Matt: Somebody from Dew Scented. I was on their website and it had Trivium on it, and the link said Melodic Death Metalcore and we liked it.

Who came up with the bandname 'Trivium' and what does it mean?
Matt: Our old singer. 'Trivium' in Latin is a three-way intersection. And in old English it was the three schools of learning meaning the three I guess courses people are learning: grammar, rhetoric and logic. And so we take it to explain our music as combining melodic death metalcore, thrash metal and metalcore/hardcore.

Who are your biggest influences?
Matt: For me it goes from let's see...I'll start with Melodic Death: In Flames, Arch Enemy, Dark Tranquillity, At The Gates, Darkane a little bit and then thrash metal: Testament, The Haunted. The Haunted, they're my thrash metal band. They're the only thrash band I listen to at the moment. I mean thrash thrash. For hardcore/metalcore it will be anybody from Between The Buried And Me, Caliban, Killswitch Engaged, Lame Of God. I listen to some other bands that are great like Forever Seems Forever, Boy Sets Fire, Poison The Well stuff like that. I guess you can't really hear that in our music but I still listen to it.

No comments.--Kmaster (talk) 17:06, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Bear in mind, that interview was in 2003, when they were releasing "Ember to Inferno". Their sound has changed alot since then. Although I still think they should just be labelled as...."Heavy Metal"! --{{Template:Userbox Trivium}} (talk) 20:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Singles Section

In the single's part of the article, it lists Like Light to the Flies as from Ascendancy. While that statement is partially true, the version that was released with the video was the demo version from MTV2 Headbangers Ball, Vol. 2. Permission to change?

I disagree- the single should probably be listed with the studio album it appeared on, even if it also appeared on compilation albums. It isn't unusual for songs to be released in a slightly different form as a single and on their album, but they are still said to be 'from' that studio album. J Milburn (talk) 17:42, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

There is some random vandalism going on from an anonymous user. I will continue to revert it, but am not contravening WP:3RR as simple and obvious vandalism comes under exceptions to this rule: [3] Blackmetalbaz (talk) 21:10, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Correct- warn the user as appropriate, and take to AIV if needed. I vandalism continues despite this or there are several IPs/new editors tag teaming the article, drop me a note on my talk page and I'll semi-protect it. J Milburn (talk) 21:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

87.36.2.6 I'm gonna get your ass blocked! (again)--Jpkmaster (talk) 17:01, 14 March 2008 (UTC)