Talk:Trivium (band)

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 Trivium (band) was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: April 17, 2008
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[edit] Good article nomination

After taking a look at this article, I'd say it's a pretty decent article, and although I do have some suggestions, I'd say it's well on its way to GA status. So, pending some work on my suggestions below, I've put the article's nomination on hold, a process that lasts about 7 days. After 7 days, I'll have to either pass or fail the article's nomination based on the improvements made. So, without further ado: (also, please note that I just GA reviewed The Crucified, and the two articles have some similar problems, so I just went ahead and copy + pasted a few of my suggestions from the previous nom. Sorry if that comes across as lazy, but I guess it is!)

  • The article's biggest shortcoming is it's scope. Specifically, the article is primarily a historical/biographical account, albeit with two lists tacked on to the end (members and discography). Surely, there's much more that could be said about the band? What about their sound? Their live performances? The group dynamic? Their influence? Their influenceS? Any controversies? Major awards? etc. I'm not saying all that needs to be in there, but the article should ideally go into more detail then "X happened. Then Y happened. After that, Z happened." As a suggestion, I think alot of the discussion of the band's various vocal techniques could be the start of a really good "Musical style" section, or something like that.
  • The lead is very short. Per WP:Lead, the lead should summarize the article's major points. In a way, this is linked to the above criticism: the lead is so short simply because there isn't much to the article to summarize.
  • Since you have an audio sample for "Pull Harder on the Strings of your Martyr", the article needs to have a better rationale for including it. Ideally, the article shouldn't just casually mention the song in a list of other songs (as it does now), but actually discuss the song more specifically. By rewriting some prose, justify why the audio sample should be there.
  • "who signed Trivium and sent the band to record its debut album," awkward sentence. "Sent to" implies a destination, not an action.
  • "The label signed Trivium and the band members and began writing songs for their major album debut." Not really sure what this sentence means, it's kind of weird grammatically. Would they have signed the band but not the members? Whose doing the writing, Trivium, the band members, or the label?
  • "the album was released on March 15, 2005." consider how specific you need to get date-wise. Is it really all that relevant what day the album was released? Same with "Trivium released The Crusade on October 10, 2006."
  • Billboard Heatseekers should be wikilinked.
  • "The album debuted at number 151 ... number four" I think "#151" and "#4" is more appropriate here. Is there an MOS for this?
  • I'm not so sure about the glowing reviews of Ascendancy and The Crusade. If they were offset with some negative reviews that would be one thing, but right now it seems kind of propaganda-ish. Another related problem is that they don't really say anything about the band in a historical context. For example, if you take a look at the Silverchair article, some critical opinions are mentioned (in the "Reception" section), but most of the quotes are specific to how the group is evolving/maturing at the time the critic is writing, not just how awesome they are. And even that article throws in a negative review once and a while (again, however, even the negative reviews apply to where the band is as a band, not just how much they suck).
  • "The band opened for Machine Head, who were one of Heafy's largest influences, Killswitch Engage, Iced Earth, and Fear Factory." is a little awkward because of the phrase in the middle of the list of bands they opened for. Consider rewording somehow.
  • "The band supported the album by touring with Iron Maiden, Metallica, a stage on the Black Crusade tour with Machine Head, Arch Enemy, DragonForce, and Shadows Fall, and an opening slot on the Family Values Tour with Korn." has a similar problem.
  • I don't think the in-line citation for Jarred Bonaparte should be in the infobox. The Band members section is probably a more appropriate place for it.

And that's pretty much it. Hopefully that doesn't seem like too much. Overall it's a well-written article that just needs a little polishing. Let me know when you think you've addressed my concerns, and I'll be happy to take another look. Good luck! Drewcifer (talk) 03:19, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure this comes as no surprise, but since none of my suggestions have been taken into account, I'm failing the article's nomination. There was a bit of disagreement about some of my critiques (the first bullet point mainly), so if you feel unsatisfied with my review feel free to nominate the article for reassessment. Just let me know if/when you do that, so that I can state my case there. Drewcifer (talk) 20:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about that. I really was going to, but I've been busy. :( Burningclean [speak] 21:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh, ok, no worries. If and when you think the article is good to go, and that you've addressed my concerns above, feel free to drop me a line and I'll review the article right away, rather than having to put the article up at WP:GAN and wait 3 weeks until it gets reviewed. Drewcifer (talk) 07:27, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Progressive?

Many progressive communities consider that Trivium are progressive metal due to the instrumentals and melodic guitar work. What is everyone elses view? --Coheed56 (talk) 06:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I have not heard them referred to as progressive, and they do not really fit the genre of progressive metal. The genres should remain the way they are now. Feel free to find some reliable sources calling them that, but make sure they know what they are talking about. Zanders5k (talk) 07:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, It is true that alot of people do think they know what they are talking about when they dont understand the meaning of progressive. Mainly its around youtube and myspace they are called progressive, however these are not reliable enough sources for Wikipedia --Coheed56 (talk) 07:53, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NOT TRASH METAL

Trivium is not Thrash metal. They may seem like it, but if you listen carefuly, you will realise its nothing but the emo-metalcore sound from the previous albums. And no, ripping off Metallica, Slayer, and Megadeth do not make you thrash metal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.13.61.168 (talk) 00:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

On Wikipedia, we cite what is said in the article to reliable sources rather than deciding for ourselves what is right. J Milburn (talk) 15:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

- Then you have obviously never listened to Trivium at all have you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.13.61.168 (talk) 20:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I've listened, I think they're a bloody awful band, but I am not saying where I think they are genre-wise as what we think is irrelevent. J Milburn (talk) 20:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it really doesn't matter what we think, it matters what the "professionals" say. Whether they are professional or not in your opinion is irrelevant, the fact is that they are the music critics and, on this website, their opinion means more than any of our's do. James25402 (talk) 20:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Alternative metal

On allmusic.com Trivium is described as: Thrash metal, Heavy metal and Alternative metal. Shouldn't we add Alternative metal in the Infobox? I think so. Link: Trivium Biography —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.174.108.97 (talk) 15:13, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I would tend to disagree, as all metalcore bands are labelled as alternative metal on AMG. I would be more inclined to add heavy metal than alternative metal, but I know it'd just encourage vandalism to the page as there are a lot of people who believe Trivium are not even "real metal" (whatever that is). James25402 (talk) 17:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)