Talk:Triskaidekaphobia
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[edit] Opening paragraph
The opening paragraph makes no sense at all. Who exactly are the "ancient mesomorphs" and how do we know how they counted? If whoever wrote this meant ancient Mesopotamians (Sumerian culture, presumably), what does that have to do with how ancient Anglos counted? I'm going to delete this and put something generic if no one disagrees. Shawnb (talk) 13:16, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] F-13
The F-13 aircraft designation was not skipped due to triskaidekaphobia. It was skipped because the F-13 had already been used as a temporary designation for a reconniasance version of the WW2-era B-29 Superfortress
[edit] NS Norfolk
I believe the piers at Naval Station Norfolk, Virginia number from 12 straight to 14 with no 13.A clock has only 12 numbers!
[edit] Airports
I was in the Louisville International Airport a couple of months ago, and I noticed that, at least in the A terminal (but presumably in the other ones as well) there was no gate 13. It went straight from A12 to A14. Is this common in airports, or is Louisville a fluke? -Branddobbe 08:32, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
It seems to be somewhat common. For another example, see Birmingham International Airport also at Memphis International Airport- User: BIG BROTHER
[edit] Irrational
The opening sentence calls Triskaidekaphobia irrational. Isn't that sort of POV? - User:BIG BROTHER
- You're right actually. The confusion is that a phobia is classically defined as an irrational and debilitating fear of x. But this I got from Phobia#Non-clinical uses of the term: "unlike clinical phobias, which are usually qualified with the word "irrational", phobias of attitude usually have roots in social relations." RMoloney (talk) 14:06, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
- The whole POV thing is there to protect people. However, if people are willing to be so irrational, then they are open to ridicule. 13 is a number. It isn't a serial killer. It isn't a hungry tiger. It isn't a mother-in-law. Hell, it isn't even a spider. I am more afraid of getting a paper-cut than encountering the number 13. I'd happily be the 13th person to order 13 bottles of wine in the 13th room of the 13th floor of the 13th building of the 13th street on Friday the 13th.
- My point is, it is irrational. All buildings with more than twelve floors have a 13th floor, whether they like it or not; call it 12a, M, 14; call it "George" for all I care - it's still the 13th floor on that building. 13 has no significance whatsoever. If I want a "baker's dozen", I don't want "12a" items. I want 13.
- Did you die when you read that? Did you develop cancer? Did you go blind? Did you so much as sneeze? No? Hm... that's odd. You should've... just look at the the amount of times a "certain number" appeared in what I said. Go on, count it. Scary, no? ... Well actually, NO.
[edit] Inconsistency?
How can triskaidekaphobia 'probably only have originated in medievil times' if the lack of a 13 in the Code of Hammurabi seems to indicate a superstition long before the Christian era?
[edit] Biblical 13
I think this addition should be properly sourced, or else deleted:
- The number 13 also retains biblical meanings. At the Last Supper, there were 13 people present. Additionally, the Christians disliked the pagans, who regarded the number 13 as a "sacred" number.
The traditional explanation for triskaidekaphobia that I first heard was the 12 apostles + Jesus in the Last Supper, but that's just a tradition. And I like to know which pagans regarded 13 as a sacred number, and why (or what does "sacred" mean, especially since it's in quotes). --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 17:48, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't agree with that. According to Christianity, the Last Supper happened
before fictional good (the death and ressurrection of Christ; forgiveness
administered to all). So associating 13 with something where the event is not
viewed as negative doesn't work friend. - Aaron M. Eden
-
- Regardless, this shouldn't be referenced as Jewish tradition seeing as they don't have any 'traditions' regarding Christ.TheNobleDuke
[edit] Loki and Satan as 13th?
Triskaidekaphobia may have also affected the Vikings - it is believed that Loki in the Norse pantheon was the 13th god. This was later Christianized into saying that Satan was the 13th angel.
Where did this actually come about? The 13th God reference is incorrect, the mythology was that he was the 13th unwanted guest to a party for Balder, and managed to cause his death. What I am more concerned about is where Satan supposedly was the 13th Angel. No mention is made of it in the correspdoning Satan Wiki entry. --Mirell 15:16, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Japanese tetraphobia
Unless there's a study proving it, I'm sure this is not quite correct. The Chinese pronunciation, for the words "die" and "four" are similar (si), and in extension the Japanese and Korean pronunciation of the same words derived from Chinese. The Japanese verb "to die" is shinu; the numeral four is either shi or yon. There are a bazillion words in Japanese that include shi and have good connotations, and there are a bazillion words where shi means something other than either "four" or "die". I bet Chinese si has a lot of meanings too. "Four sounds like die" is not a serious explanation. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 12:48, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
While I'm definitely not terribly familiar with Chinese, I do know of their tonal system, and from investigating on a Chinese-English Dictionary employing Pinyin, I noted "four" was "sì", whereas anything discussing "death" seemed to be composed of the morpheme "sǐ". Which, in Chinese, just that much tonal difference is enough to render it an entirely different word altogether.
Also, it should be noted, that this was using Mandarin. Just taking into account the variety of dialects (languages) for Chinese, it can't very well be stated that Chinese as a whole has this certain phobia.--Mirell 15:21, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
"Four" and "death" in all dialects of Chinese are the same. [Unsigned user]
In Japanese, the verb "shinu" does mean to die. This is made up of a kanji character meaning death and pronounced "shi" and a hiragana character which provides the verb ending and is modified in the various forms of the verb. The existing phrasing is, in my opinion, correct. The verb "to die" and the number 4 may not be homonyms but the core character meaning death and one pronunciation of 4 are homonyms. The explanation given in this article coincides exactly with the explanation given for Japanese Tetraphobia by all the Japanese people I have ever asked.Buyo 08:09, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
As a Chinese myself growing up and living in Hong Kong, perhaps I can explain a bit about tetraphobia in Chinese. The phobia definitely traces it back to the language - in Mandarin Chinese 'four' is si4 and 'die/death' is si3, which have just a slight difference in tone (the number notates the tone); I am not familiar with each and every dialects in China but at least in Cantonese 'four' is sei3 and 'die/death' is sei2 (which are, you can see, very close in pronunciation too). There are a lot of apartment blocks in HK which doesn't have the 4th or 14th floor ;in fact, '14' (sup6 sei3) in Cantonese is similiar to the words 'must die' (sut6 sei2). In the same virtue, since the traditional way of saying the word 'tongue' (sit3) in Cantonese is similar to 'losing money' (sit6), therefore we call it lei6 among Cantonese-speaking people since it has the same pronunciation as the word 'making profit'. On the other hand, Chinese like the number 'eight' (ba1/bat3), which in both Mandarin and Cantonese pronunces very close to 'having a fortune' (fa1/fat3)sctonyling 08:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Formula-1
Who were these 2 drivers who died under number 13? I couldn't find this information anywhere else.--Bubuka 11:56, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
- According to [1], there were three motorsport deaths in the 1920s involving car 13: Jean Matthys & Paul Torchy (1925) and Giulio Masetti (1926). This led most motorsport bodies, including F1 when it came into existence, to not issue number 13, although in the case of F1 (and probably others) the driver is free to request it. 86.139.19.32 21:58, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Arnold Schoenberg
Okay, it's understandable that this dude was afraid of turning 76, due to the digits adding up to 13. But what about other numbers? 49, 58, 67, then after 76 comes 85, and 94. Heck, even 31 is just the number 13 in disguise.
The whole example about Schoenberg seems a bit too much of an urban myth. The wikipedia article states nothing about the coincidence of his time of death. Can we get a source for this information or get it revised?
[edit] Mário Zagallo
Opposed to what was mentioned, Mário Zagallo actually believes 13 is a number that brings good luck, not quite fitting into the definition of triskaidekaphobia. His superstition is also confirmed on his wikipedia page. 201.37.195.38 03:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Religious overtones not appropriate
Anybody else find several parts of this article very innappropriate? Read this:
The first born son of Pharaoh died when the angel of death visited the land of Egypt. To the Egyptians, Pharaoh was God on earth, and hence to show him to not be god was necessary. The death of the "son of the Egyptian God "Pharaoh" is interesting in that it was through the sacrifice of a son, an innocent son, that God's people were freed. So, since the Jewish day begins and ends with sundown, the passover took place on the 14th of Nisan. But according to the reckoning of the Egyptian (read GENTILE) calendar, it was Friday night on the 13th of the month. Friday the 13th was the day of deliverance for the people of Israel from the Egyptian (gentile) perspective. And so it was also a foreshadowing of the deliverance of all God's people, for it was by death of the son of the king (Christ being the Son of God) that the people were freed from their bondage to sin and eternal death. Because this plague took place on the evening of the 13th (it being a Friday as the Jewish Sabbath takes place on Saturday)is why Fridays that fall on the 13th day of the month acquired the superstition that it was a bad day and it is also why the number 13 has a phobia attached to it. It is fascinating to what extent Satan will go to attach fear and misunderstanding to anything and everything so as to direct people away from God's truth.
Especially look at the last sentence. This is totally innappropriate for this article; it's fine mentioning possible sources for the Friday 13th thing, but that sentence `It is fascinating to what extent Satan will go to attach fear and misunderstanding to anything and everything so as to direct people away from God's truth' is just plain preaching and has no right to be in this article. I haven't deleted it because I'm too new to this site to know what is the correct method but I'm sure others agree and can do something about it.
According to the article:
Other traditions believe Friday the 13th comes from the final plague which God used to bring Egypt to its knees and demonstrate his deity to them and to accomplish the release of his people Israel. Each of the 10 plagues was a direct revelation/attack on the Gods of Egypt. The River Nile was worshipped as a God (it was the life force of Egypt because it irrigated the delta region and provided food) hence it was the 1st "god" that God dealt with. Each of the next plagues also brought down one by one, one of the gods of the Egyptian people (it was a demonstration of YHWH's true deity as opposed to the false deity of the Egyptian gods), and finally with the 10th plague, God brought down Pharaoh.
The first born son of Pharaoh died when the angel of death visited the land of Egypt. To the Egyptians, Pharaoh was God on earth, and hence to show him to not be god was necessary. The death of the "son of the Egyptian God "Pharaoh" is interesting in that it was through the sacrifice of a son, an innocent son, that God's people were freed.
So, since the Jewish day begins and ends with sundown, the passover took place on the 14th of Nisan.
The last sentence reads like a conclusion, but I'm not sure I follow the logic. It seems to say, "God sent 10 plagues, the last one being the death of Pharaoh's son on Passover. Because of this, and because the Jewish day begins and ends with sundown, Passover must have been on the 14th of Nisan." Does it say somewhere in the Bible that the first plague occurred on the 4th day of Nisan, and that each plague lasted for exactly a day? What is the connection between the plagues and the Passover?
Don't get me wrong; I think this is all fascinating. But if the point is that Passover occurred on Friday the 13th, then I recommend eliminating the first two paragraphs, and rewriting the third to say, "According to [citation], the Passover took place on the 14th day of Nisan, which would have been Friday the 13th according to the Egyptian calendar. On this day the Angel of the Lord killed the firstborn sons of everyone in Egypt whose doorways were not marked with the blood of the Passover lamb. Therefore the Egyptians viewed Friday the 13th as extremely unlucky."
- I agree with the above, and I'm pleased someone removed what did sound completely inappropriate. To the poster above, you may wish to sign your comments in future by concluding them with four tildes '~ ~ ~ ~', but without the spaces or the quotes, which will tag on your name and a date. I've also taken the liberty of further removing unnecessarily preachy text, in the form of a large segment dealing with the superstition of Friday 13th as it relates to Bible stories about the plagues of Egypt. I've done this because a) most of that text dealt with Friday 13th - not 13 - and there's already an article for that; and b) most of the text was telling the story of the plagues from the POV of a believer. - Adaru 16:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I do not know if this would be applicable to this article but USAToday has an article concerning hotels with and without 13th floors...[2]--Kcmo64 18:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Long list of junk
The article has a long list of non-notable instances of the number 13, and the reality is that by adding digits together in specific ways you can get 13 out of pretty much everything. Titanium Dragon 11:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Yes~! RANDOM occurrences do not belong here. The list is literally of infinite size. What's important are cultural instances which show fear, superstition, etc. --Dylanfly 16:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] strays from the topic how?
I don't see how the section on origins strays from the topic. I see an uncited statement, but that's a different problem. Knodeltheory 18:33, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] MERGE unlucky aspects of 13 here
The WP page for Thirteen (number) has a section on triskaidekaphobia and it should appear here. There's a lot of redundancy. --Dylanfly 16:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] False Apollo Info
The Apollo info here is wrong. Apollo 13 was launched on April 11 at 19:13. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.62.67.86 (talk) 23:45, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Number 4 in Korea
I cannot speak directly for China and Japan, but the reason 4 is considered an inauspicious number in Korea is because the Korean word for 4 - sa/사 (which derives from the hanja)- is a homonym for 'death'. Buildings in Korea don't skip the fourth floor as is suggested in the article, they simply go in this order: 1, 2, 3, F, 5... --Bentonia School 09:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Exception
The Las Vegas Hilton is one of the only hotels in the Western Hemisphere with a 13th floor.
Calling it an exception "in the western hemisphere" might be too much. I live in the western hemisphere and there is no fear of 13th floors here, and I doubt local hotels skip 13th floors - this breaks the supposed rule and makes Las Vegas Hilton pointless as an exception.
Perhaps it should say North America, or even US + Canada (I don't know if Mexico has this tradition too).
