Talk:Trieste

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back to Italy? when did belong to italy? WOOOO LOVE YA

Never before the 1918, but the Italian propaganda pre-World War I dislike the history (as usual in every pre-war times) -- Unknown

I agree with this, this article's history text should be deleted and rewritten with NPOV in mind. --DustWolf 22:45, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Additionally, the statement "capital of literature and music" seems very contestable in its present form. This is POV. --64.252.20.52 05:02, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

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As far as I know the local slovenians also speak a dialect although I don't know it's name, and it might be used much more in the surrounding villages & localities around Trieste.

Contents 1 Demographics 2 Venice 3 slovenian name 4 Illyrian Name 5 Pictures 6 Carni and Carso 7 Caves 8 Yugoslavia and New Zealand 9 OZAC 10 Image for article 11 Imperial Free City 12 Friulian 13 Fair use rationale for Image:Friuli-Venezia Giulia-Stemma.png

[edit] Demographics

   * 94.9% Italian
   * 1.8% Serbian
   * 0.8% Croatian
   * 0.3% Albanian
   * 0.2% Slovenian

  Smaller groups are Chinese, Bosnian, Romanian, German, and Senegalese

It's not clear what these data represent. What is the area being concerned? Is this the city of Trieste, the commune of Trieste, the province of Trieste or something else? What is the criterion of classification? It seems to be citizenship. What is the source of these data? Until these questions are answered, I think we can't include these data in the article, as we don't know what they mean. Boraczek 10:42, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Venice

Very iffy on the "ruled by Venice" bit - for 3 years? Occupied, surely? Can I change this?

[edit] slovenian name

Isn't the proper slovenian name for Trieste identical to the croatian, that is Trst? And I think Triest is german. I've also heard that the name Trieste actualy originates from the slovenian Trst. Can anyone confirm this? I've looked it up in a dictionary and it says:

trst, trstje - reed, reeds pl; piščal iz ~a reed pipe; postelja iz ~a reedy bed; sladkorni ~ sugarcane; opirati se na zlomljen ~' (figuratively) to rely on (or to lean upon) a broken reed

btw, I've also heard that a part of Trieste was designed by a slovenian architect pleznik or something.

The name Trieste and its german and slovenian/croatian counterparts derive from the Latin Tergeste, name used since the II century B.C. Some people say it comes from ter gestae, meaning it had to be built thrice, but most probably it has a celtic or protoitalic origin.

Yes, in Croatia you say Trst, that is slavic, originaly Slovenian name for that city. --83.131.49.31 23:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

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TRST is Slovenian name for the city. Some of the buildings were designed by Jože Plečnik (Jozhe Plechnik). Terg(este) would mean market (city) which is again Slavic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.149.23.15 (talk) 02:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Illyrian Name

The most probable origin of the name Trieste (older Tergeste) is a putative Illyrian/Daco-Misian word with trans-balkanic cognates: *terg, meaning 'market' (cf. Albanian treg, 'market', Slovenian and Croatian trg, 'square, market'), plus a root *(v)est(e) which might mean 'town', thus making 'market town', a remarkably fitting name for Trieste since ancient times. It is also interesting to note that there are many localities in Romania and Bulgaria called tergoveste, tergovisti. - By the way I am thinking about adding some of this info to the article, and would like to hear from you on this suggestion. Stephanos1ko 23:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I think this is completely wrong, the slavic noun trg cannot refer to Trieste or other western european locations as the slavic immigration in the area began many centuries after these places were built and received their names. It would be like saying that the name Vindibona (Wien) is of german origin. The similiarity of two sounds should not lead to gross historical errors.

You have misundestood the above reference to the word 'trg'. What I meant by that is a well known fact: the noun 'trg' isn't Slavic at all, but rather an Illyrian loanword into Southern Slavic languages (note that it is absent in all other Slavic branches). The presence of this word in Albanian 'treg' is also evidence for an Illyrian connection. So the word was indeed present in the region thousands of years ago and long before Slavic languages were brought southwards. But it is important to quote the loanwords into modern languages so that we can better understand the original meaning of the term. In this case, Both Albanian and South Slavic languages agree on a general meaning of 'market' for this loanword, which is probably what it meant in Illyrian, too. E.Cogoy (Formerly Stephanos1ko) 17:30, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank You for Your kind reply. And thank you for this explanation. I misunderstood You, but You shall pardon me as I found this theory in several essays and they all reported the word trg as slavic, thus indicating many town names as of slavic origin, even in areas where this large european group never inhabited, check it out in "Les Slaves" by Francis Conte. Instead I agree with You as there must have been a common language that was used by indoeuropeans or preindoeuropeans people and whose word to indicate villages traded into many town names in the italian north east (e.g. Trieste, Tarvisio, Treviso) and other parts of Europe. This has been proved with many other toponyms (cfr. sor - river). mabastet-wiki@yahoo.com

"Trg" is a Proto-Slavic word which is now present in all (or almost all) Slavic languages, including Polish and Russian. "Tergeste" looks like a Slavic name, but probably is not one, because there are no traces of the presence of Slavs in the area of Trieste before the 6th century AD. Boraczek 09:42, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I suppose you refer to words like Polish targ and Czech trh... well, yes, it is true that there is an apparent Slavic cognate, in which case I should reword the above statement. However, this does not explain at all the whole ancient root *terg-este, and not only due to a gap in time. As I said, there is evidence for a substrate (probably Old Venetian or 'Illyrian') accounting for both *terg- 'market', (granted, possibly remotely related to Slavic, yet from a different source) and *(v)este 'town'. see, for instance, this [1], or this discussion [2], or this [3] E.Cogoy 10:30, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear E.Cogoy,

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on the linguistic ground.

The Proto-Slavic root was *trg and the Proto-Slovic suffix -ist'e is quite common. So the Proto-Slavic word would be *trgist'e. Confer the Slovenian tržišče < *trgist'e. The Proto-Slavic syllabic r would be given in Latin as a vowel + r and the shift i > e would not surprise us. So linguistically, Tergeste does look like a Slavic name. There are other arguments which make us think that the origin was different than Slavic, but the linguistic argument is not among them. Boraczek 13:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

To be sure: I don't argue that your etimology of "Tergeste" is wrong. I just explain some things related to the Slavic languages. Kind regards. Boraczek 14:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I changed the venetian "ruled it" to "occupied it" for 3 years. We never surrendered! :)

well, why T(E)RG-este could not be sloven(d)ian name? Sloven(d)ans have been living here for over 40.000 years.

They haven't. The Slovenian language stems from the Proto-Slavic language. And Slavs arrived in the region of Trieste in the 6th century AD. Boraczek 21:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's not confuse languages with peoples. Recent genetic research has demonstrated that most of European populations have remained quite stable, probably for the last 10.000-15.000 years (not so much before that, though, and the Balkans appear to be an exception, with later neolithic migrations). The fact that small migrating groups have imposed their languages on a majority of natives is unsurprising, and in fact quite common throughout history. So it is pretty much possible that most of today's inhabitants of the region descend from people who were already there for a long time. But they obviously spoke other languages. There is no such thing as "Slavs wiping out Illyrians, expelling Italians [in ancient times], the true natives", etc. At most you could say that "Slavs 'slavicized' Illyrians and Italians back then, the natives remain there, have merely shifted their language, and we shouldn't be arguing over this in the first place!!"... E.Cogoy 21:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Tergeste is clearly a Latin adaptation of a Slavic name, which comes from the root terg (market) and the suffix '-ište', and means the same as 'tržište' (marketplace) in Croat and 'tržišče' in Slovene. The people of Trieste are to this day called Tržačani (market people) in Slovene, while the region is called Tržaško (market region). Similarly the neighbouring city Monfalcone is also called Tržič (small market) in Slovene. The name is similar also to Romanian Târgovişte and Bulgarian Targovishte (Търговище), as well as Croatian Veliko Trgovišće (big marketplace), Serbian Trgovište (Трговиште), Slovene Trgovišče and so on and so on. These names are all Slavic, no reason to claim anything else for Tergeste. 201.51.122.168 11:43, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Another possibility is *Terg-istro as it is a market town of the Histri or of the land of Istria. The Istrian peninsula is home to the remaining Istro-Romanian speakers. In modern Romanian it might sound like Targu Istru which is somewhat similar to the old name of Tergeste. Gabrieli (talk) 06:08, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

Canciand 08:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC) 9.03 Monday May 15 2006 (UTC) I have some more pictures from Trieste but I don't exactly know how to fix them in. Is there any way you can help (also to choose them)? I have a nice one of the gulf with TS far at the end; it was taken from the aqueduct of S. Croce. I also have some more on the Fortress of Monrupino although I still have to find them! I'm not coming often so please post your answer and I'll come back in the next 10 days. Thanks!!!

Just upload them and send me the names (i.e. Trieste_Gulf.jpg). I will create a "gallery" at the bottom of the page. This way we can add as many pictures as we like. Thanks, --Asterion ^{talk to me} 18:30, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

(Canciand 17:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)) ok Asterion! I will do it tomorrow if I'm not working. In the mean time I have read a very interesting article about Wikipedia on Opendemocracy.com. I think everyone editing should read it. This is the link: http://www.opendemocracy.net/media-edemocracy/wikipedia_3584.jsp# Take care!

[edit] Carni and Carso

I note the authors indicated that the Carni, a people that in old days come to the area, gave the Carso its name. This is not so, maybe they gave a region of Friuli Venezia Giulia, Carnia, its name. Carso comes from slovenian kras.

203.0.25.65 05:01, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Caves

(canciand1 17:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC))It would be nice to add a little paragraph about the massive ammount of caves that are present on the Carso. Also mention the Grotta Gigante, which is the biggest turistic cave in the world. I know there is already an article about it, therefore it won't be a long one. I will try to write few lines. Comments are always welcomed!

[edit] Yugoslavia and New Zealand

This is an important part of the city's history. Had the New Zealand Division not arrived, the city would have been part of Yugoslavia, and effectly in the Eastern bloc. Wallie 06:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Not exactly, Yugoslavia wasn't what you'd call an Eastern Bloc country. The government was nominally communist but was in fact non-allined, thus not a member of the Warsaw Pact, and in time they also withdrew from COMECON. There was no Soviet presence anywhere in the former Yugoslavia, by contrast to Romania, Bulgaria and the like. Yugoslav citizens were issued passports in 1963 and were able to move freely in both the EEC/EFTA territories as well as the Eastern Bloc. But yes, the difference between being under Belgrade or Rome did make some kind of social difference, that is clear. --Evlekis 13:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Yugoslav troops had to leave the city on June 12 under pressure from the New Zealanders.

In fact, the Yugoslav troops had to leave the city because of the diplomatic pressure of the US and the Great Britain, which was not counterbalanced by the Soviet Union. New Zealanders had absolutely NOTHING to do with that. Boraczek 08:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

It does not matter, Trieste belonged To Yugoslavia and it should be apart of Slovenia right now for obvious reasons. Sloveniaiscool 22:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, it really is sad. Italy, part of the Axis powers, lost the war and still gained lots of Slovenia territory. But what's done is done.

OK, the article says that five Italians (at least) were killed by Partisans during a pro-Italian demonstration. But the Official History of New Zealand in the Second World War says that nobody was killed (see http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2-2Ita-c12-2.html) "They swiftly dispersed an unarmed mob of Italians who attempted to stage a counter-demonstration. The Italians ‘came marching along the waterfront carrying a New Zealand flag, an American flag and numbers of Italian flags. As they marched they chanted over and over “Italia” “Italia” and finally halted in front of Bde HQ where they began singing a patriotic song…. Partisans appeared everywhere and began firing automatics from the hip over the heads of the crowd. No one was hurt in the immediate vicinity…. The crowd panicked and a large proportion fled to the Albergo Citta overwhelming our two sentries on the door.’" (attributed to B. C. H. Moss, a commander of the New Zealand 9th Brigade) So I've asked for a citation.Steve3742 09:36, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I've just added a citation. Boraczek 08:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

This music video on youtube shows pictures and film of the period when Trieste returned to Italy, at the end (from 4:55 to 4:58) there is also a picture with a plaque commemorating the 6 Italians murdered, who named. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecU43V6XOBg

[edit] OZAC

The statement "he Germans, however, annexed it to an Adriatic Littoral Operation Zone, which included also Gorizia and Ljubljana and was led by Austrian Friedrich Rainer" seems to be in conflict with the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Zone_of_Adriatic_Coastal_Region.

This article states that the zone was called the "Operation Zone of Adriatic Coastal Region" and that it was lead by "Higher SS and Police Leader (in German, Höherer SS- und Polizeiführer, HSSPF) Odilo Globocnik".

The OZAC was part of Reichsgau of Carinthia, led by Rainer.

[edit] Image for article

The uploader of this image uploaded it twice, the other copy was added to this page at that time. Not sure if it would be helpful or not. ~ BigrTex 16:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Imperial Free City

The page says it was the "Imperial Free City of Trieste" (Reichsunmittelbare Stadt Triest); however, the German title of the page for "Imperial Free City" is "Freie Reichsstadt", with "Reichsunmittelbar" pointing to a different page (Reichsunmittelbarkeit). Can anyone more knowledgeable on the matter clarify, and fix the inconsistency as appropriate? 74.132.200.129 23:37, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the Habsburg Empire's terminology is different from the Holy Roman Empire one (which had Reichsunmittelbar). Trieste became an Imperial Free City way into the Austrian period. 189.6.166.7 01:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Friulian

Our cousins from the north (I mean the Friulani) are having fun with this page. Friulian is not spoken in Trieste at all, there are more people who speak chinese, romanian, serbo-croat or any other number of languages. Thats why I cut it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.82.57.134 (talk) 11:32, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Friuli-Venezia Giulia-Stemma.png

Image:Friuli-Venezia Giulia-Stemma.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)