Talk:Tribulation
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I made the mistake of leaping before I got a good look at the whole article. I removed a reference to WWIII, which deviated from any scholarly description of the events explicitly foretold in Revelations. Had I read the rest of the article, I would have seen that it is rife with such predictions. These eschatological interpretations of scripture would be better suited to an article of their own; one expressly for that purpose. Such surmising is not appropriate in an objective description of Revelations. I'm not prepared to go and remove everything, as I'm something of an interloper, but I strongly encourage someone with more clout to do so. -- Volfied
There could probably also be something said about pre- and post-millenialism, and about the "pantribulationist" position: never mind the details, it will all pan out in the end. I've actually heard that last one quite a bit, in several different circles. ;-) --Wesley
what about Preterism?
- According to Pretribulationism, all Christians then alive will be taken bodily up to heaven (called the rapture or Parousia) before the Tribulation begins, although many who become Christians before the rapture will live through (or perish during) the Tribulation.
Who exactly will have to live through the Tribulation? --AxelBoldt
As I understand it, pretribulationists believe that Jesus will come and take away all the Christian believers at the time of the Rapture. All non-Christians (including Christians who aren't 'real' Christians) will remain on earth, and will have to live through or more likely die during the Tribulation. However, during the time of the Tribulation, many of the non-Christians left behind by the Rapture will become Christians. These new Christians will have to live through the Tribulation, or die or be martyred during it. At the end, Jesus will return for those who became Christians during the Tribulation, and to deal with (consign to hell?) the rest. -- SJK
- So the passage in question should be reworded to 'although many who will become Christians after the rapture...'? EddEdmondson 13:48, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Yes, you are right. Fixed the article. -- DavidCary 02:16, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Just making sure: "Paraousia" and "Parousia" as used in this article are distinct terms, and both are correct? DSatz 19:09, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
I will attempt to fix this line: "Here is a timeline of the events to come during the Tribulation period according to the book of Revelation," to reflect other interpretations regarding the time(s) these events occur. Traditionally, the seven trumpets are thought to occur during the Tribulation, with the seals of the book covering the span of humankind's history, and the vials/bowls happening during the Wrath of God (after the Millennial reign of Christ). Of course, some events seem to overlap, so the explanation needs to allow for that. --Kibbitzer 3 July 2005 11:13 (UTC)
Some interpret the white horse and rider of Rev.6:2 to represent Jesus (and the Church)--going forth to conquer evil--and use Rev.19:11-14 as a cross reference. May be worthwhile to mention this in the appropriate spot.--Kibbitzer 04:59, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Delusion
I am absolutely consternated. Do people really believe this stuff? LOL! They might as well believe in the tooth-fairy and Santa Clause -- you know, the evidence doesn't matter; what matters if FAITH in the tooth-fairy. After all, faith is a virtue, isn't it! LOL. Truly amazing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.64.70.117 (talk) 17:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Historical View
“The Tribulation would have ended, according to this understanding, at the restoration of the nation of Israel in 1948 or at the return of Jerusalem to Jewish control in 1967.”
I am puzzled by this conclusion for this is not the historicist viewpoint as I know it. The historicist viewpoint believes the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation represent the entire history of the church up to Christ's Second Coming and the establishment of the new kingdom under Christ – not a fulfillment of the restoration of physical Israel. The historicist viewpoint recognizes that all references to Israel after Christ’s first coming now represent spiritual Israel – not physical Israel.
[edit] Sufic View
Is it allowed to actually state what all the things in the Revelation actually are in relation to the tribulation.Or is actual information not allowed? Let me know; I AM WRITING A BOOK ABOUT IT. If information is allowed let me know; rather than speculation. ````
Unicorn 144
As stated, the historicist sees the papacy as the fulfillment of the "Little Horn Power" referenced in Daniel 7:24. It also sees the papacy as the harlot woman in Revelation 17 with the vision of the terrible seven headed/ten horned beast in Daniel as the same - just different characteristics.
Daniel 7:24 The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings.
The historicist viewpoint believes the statue vision in Daniel Chapter 2 is the entire history of the church up until Christ's Second Coming with the rock that crushes as Christ's Second Coming. This is a different viewpoint than the Preterist and Futurists. Here is a comparison of the different viewpoints:
Statue Historicist Preterist Futurist Head of Gold Babylon Babylon Babylon Chest/arms of Silver Media-Persia Media Media-Persia Thighs of Bronze Greece Persia Greece Legs of Iron Pagan Rome Greece Pagan Rome Feet of Iron & Clay Papal Rome Pagan Rome Pagan Rome
The historicist viewpoint considers the different prophecies given in Daniel as the same prophecies; just different characteristics which help identify the kingdoms and events in history. That the idea that God gives prophecy in multiple forms was established in Genesis 41 where God gave the pharaoh of Egypt the vision of the seven cows (fat and thin) and the seven heads of grain (plump and blighted). Daniel chapter 8 provides the vision of the goat and the ram which allows us to identify Media-Persia and Greece as the next two kingdoms. The ten horns of the “terrible beast” allow us to identify the ten gothic tribes that destroyed pagan Rome with the three uprooted as the destroyed empires of the Vandals, Heruli and Ostrogoth’s. So and so forth…
The historicist also considers the idea of “seven years of tribulation” as a gross error and misinterpretation of scripture. The idea of the “seven years of tribulation” is the foundation of the “secret rapture” and “dispensationalism”. The error being that the seven years of Daniel’s prophecy where fulfilled in Christ’s first advent and has nothing to do with Christ’s Second Coming. That the scripture of Daniel 9:26 states:
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
That this reference parallels Isaiah’s reference in chapter 53:8
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
Both making reference to the crucifixion of Christ.
Thus it is the Messiah/Jesus Christ that is "cut off" - not the week. That the "seventieth week of Daniel" has already been fulfilled. That the Futurist interpretations which includes all the variations of the "tribulation" are Biblically incorrect with saying the "week was cut off".
Joe Cipriani
--CipriaJ9999 12:43, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] External links
I posted links to articles I have written on several subjects in Wikipedia. Most of them were removed shortly after, including this article. Two days later, I am still getting hits coming from these articles and the links are not there. How is that possible? User:goodseed
The links on this article are not described as per WP:EL. Also some of them seem to point to, for want of a better word, idiosyncratic views. Can someone who knows more about the subject than I do at least add descriptions to assist in assessing what the links are about please? - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 13:34, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] NPOV
"It is believed and accepted..."? Not by me. Can we get some NPOV? User:The_dogandpony
- This certainly is not the view of the roman catholic church. I am not an expert on the different other christian views, but I am quite certain that some more tend to disagree. This article is certainly POV. --84.178.104.14 18:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Adequate
This article does not show a lack of neutrality. It is in fact quite a neutral view point and academic in tone. That the topic is likely not fully explored is only appropriate for such a broad scope as a prophetic intrepetive of the 'end of days'. There are volumes and tomes on this topic, none of which is alone complete, authoritative or comprehensive. This article can not hope to contain more than an overview and to serve as an index to the thought, a lenghty definition of the 'term' -- in this case it is a dictionary entry for the lexicon symbol whose replete representation is not available until history writes the story at some future time -- if there can be imagined such a time; and it is THIS potentiality which raises NON_NEUTRALITY, for the opposition to tribulation is that the concept is simple legend, an exaggeration of human events. Today we see similarities to the prophecies. Yet there have before been crises of time that could as well be interpreted. No doubt the future holds ample opportunity for similtude. Nevertheless, it is just as likely that the future lies far more distant in time than we would like. It is also likely that the conflicts of time will be resolved, not unlike they have been in the past. Though there are threats that seem ultimate, even completely destructive, there is also reason to expect resolution to arrive just as it is required. In otherwords, we can 'foresee' tribulation; yet we cannot foretell the future 72.244.112.35 15:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)because we cannot forecast solutions before they arrive. History is the record of conflict and resolution. It is easier to forecast difficulty, it is far more challenging to forecast resolution.
As much as the tribulation is a mark of the end of time, the constitution of the United States is a revelation that is good into the future, a structure of mankind's highest good, forecasting solutions into the millenium ahead, proven in centuries past. Though yet to be seen, solutions will arrive as needed, just in time. History will record the fact of mankind's dealing succesfully with holocaust, flood, pestilence, war, even collision with meteors and comets. Disease, war and widespread destruction of any form can not only be met, but resolved even before it is engaged. Mankind may have a tribulation period in the future, and it may also have solutions that resolve the crises that give rise to tribulations. The choices are our own. To think otherwise, denies neutrality of view. This requires an attack on the prophets but is unnecesary. Their voices stand, if they have been accurately recorded. And therein lies our responsibility to the service of neutrality >> how much assurance to we have of our prophet's original prophecy? Many of these writings have been adulterated sufficiently that forensic examination is the offseting viewpoint to the clergy interpetives given in this article.
Since neither the antithesis of tribulation nor the authencity of the prophecy are presented, I see no issue with the content of the article with regards to its neutrality -- it is simply omited, which in the case of the prophetic view of the end of days, is appropriate.
72.244.112.35 15:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)Ancient Wisdom
[edit] NPOV
The article is scarcely neutral. Consider
- A burning mountain plummets into the sea (This could refer to an asteroid striking the earth, ...
Well, yes - I suppose it could. Or it could refer to a burning mountain as in "who ever commandeth this mountain, be thou removed into the sea". Or it might refer to an ordinary volcano (isn't Vesuvius due?). Or it might be a drug-induced hallucination and not "refer" to anything.
- A star called Wormwood falls onto the Earth ... (This is believed to be a comet ...
Belived by whom? John? Certainly not - comets were signs in the heavens, not physical objects that might actually hit the earth
- These are most likely demonic locusts
Most likely! Most likely! Personally, I think it is "most likely" that demons do not exist at all. Perhaps the article might say that it is most likelty that John meant that the locustys are demonic - but then you get into the question of how the heck the writer of this article knw what John meant.
- Painful sores (possibly boils or carbuncles
Possibly ... or possibly not. Many people think that these sores are a result of the godless heathen getting AIDS as a result of their vile sexual practises.
- Sun burns with intense heat and scorches people (This is an intense heat plague,
A "heat plague"? Eh? What's that?
In general, the article could do without the modern-day interpretations and trying to make John's vision fit what we now know to bhe true of the material world. It could also benefit without the unstated assumption that the Apocalypse of the book of revelation is actually a real revelation from a god of anything.
Paul Murray 03:29, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
- It appears that the article has scarcely improved in the last year...--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Sequence of events
This section is full of weasel words. We hear that "some believe" this or "it is held by some" that without any citations of who holds it or why. If the person entering that simply made it up themselves, then it is original research, although "research" is putting it politely. "Sheer speculation" would be fairer.
The whole section, IMO, should be cut down to
[edit] Revelation's Sequence of Events
Here is a list of events mentioned in the book of Revelation, some of which (usually attributed to the seven trumpets) occur during the Great Tribulation period:
[edit] Seven Seals
- The White Horse of the Apocalypse. When he comes, he is given a crown and he goes out as a conquerer bent on conquest
- When the Red Horse comes the rider is given a large sword and he takes peace from the world, causing men to kill each other.
- When the Black Horse comes he causes famine.
- The Pale Horse causes death (by plague).
These four are given "power over one fourth of the earth" to "kill by sword, famine, plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth".
- Martyrs begin dying during the Tribulation.
- Worldwide earthquake followed by the darkening of the sun and moon, and the stars in the sky fall to earth.
- Silence in Heaven, followed by fire being hurled to the Earth.
(Note: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, are symbols for the events of the first four seals. They represent events as seen in a vision by the John of Patmos. As they are allegorical, no horsemen are expected to be seen galloping during the tribulation. Those who believe in the literal truth of the Bible, however, expect these things to be real.)
-
- Inaccurate Sixth Seal Summary
-
- The descriptions of the solar and lunar images are inaccurate. Both do not darken. Only the Sun ceases to emit visible light. The Moon assumes the appearance of blood. In the absence of visible light, the red color could be attributed to a form of luminescence. Additional global phenomena were presented in Revelation 6:12-17 that were omitted from the summary. No statement was made to justify the omisions. Tcisco 19:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Seven Trumpets
- Hail, fire, and blood fall upon the earth, burning one-third of the earth, trees, and grass.
- A burning mountain plummets into the sea, turning a third of the sea to blood and destroying a third of all ships on the sea and creatures in it.
- A star called Wormwood falls onto the Earth poisoning the freshwater sources such as streams and rivers.
- Sun, stars and moon are darkened by one-third.
- Plague of indestructible locusts ravage the wicked forces of the Antichrist, inflicting endless pain. Many will try to kill themselves from the pain, but "death will flee from them". There is mention that believers will be sealed by God first, and the locusts will not attack them upon seeing God's seal on them.
- Over 200 million horsemen kill one-third of wicked left on Earth with massive strikes, fire, and smoke.
- Lightning, hailstorm, and earthquakes.
-
- Seven trumpets! And here's me thinking it was seven strumpets!PiCo 03:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Seven Thunders
- Revelation Chapter 10:3-4. 3 and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. 4 And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, "Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down."
- Revelation Chapter 10:7. 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."
- Some view this as a portion of the "Battle Plan" of God which can not be revealed lest His enemies make preparations. Another verse which supports this theory is Revelation Chapter 10:10 which says, "10 I took the little scroll from the angel's hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour."
[edit] Seven Vial (Bowl) Judgments (God's Wrath)
- Painful sores. (These sores only affect those bearing the mark of the beast, who worship his image.)
- Sea turns to blood
- Rivers turn to blood
- Sun burns with intense heat and scorches people.
- Antichrist's kingdom is plunged into darkness.
- Euphrates River dries up and is prepared for battle from the armies from the east.
- Worldwide earthquake leveling every mountain into the sea followed by huge hailstones and lightning.
[edit] Sourcing needed
This entire section is original research. It needs to be removed unless the interpretation is sourced, and differences between sects are explained, again with verification Superm401 - Talk 09:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
It's also totally gay! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.88.58.254 (talk) 19:42, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] =The Sufic View
Some facts might be helpful; for instance the identity of the two beasts of Revelation as the 3-in-one as the Axis and the false prophet as the beast of Marxism. ````Unicorn144````Feb. 20, 2007 (UTC)
Even with this pruning, it is still petty unencyclopaedic. And it fails to provide a precis of the sequence of events (the 144000, the woman and the dragon, the witnesses, the fall of babylon, the judgment).
Really, this whole section ether needs redoing, or should be removed. But at the very least, all the speculation about what the apostle "might" have meant or what "some belive" the words actually mean should definitely go ASAP.
Paul Murray 19:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Hey Unicorn144, prophecy is by nature speculative, and Revelation is surreal, so any claims of presenting "facts" or "actual information" will be met with resistance. The article is intended to reflect the various opinions of notable scholars. Hence, whatever you add needs to be referenced to whomever you are deriving the information from. - JethroElfman 05:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Having to try once again to add some clarity to this entire area of hypothetical inquiry
I hope that now my book is close to being published I will not have to worry about quoting what OTHERS have said about these things: like christian theologicians and savants in our present day!Unicorn144 18:00, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, using your own book in such a way is generally frowned upon. See Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources (online and paper). Surely you can find some reputable theologician who has written or said on TV something that you can use as a reference. - JethroElfman 17:43, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Basis for " * 5. The Rise of the false one-world religion." ?
"5. The Rise of the false one-world religion." Where in the Bible says this, what is the origin of this idea?
