Talk:Tribe of Mic-O-Say
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This article needs editing. There is already a decent article on H. Roe Bartle, we don't need all this info on him here. This article needs to focus only on the Tribe, its purpose, history, etc. --Emb021 1 July 2005 20:03 (UTC)
I've edited, and trimmed down what was here. Someone basically copied over the wordy history of M-O-S from the Pony Express MOS page. Not good, as that might be considered a copyright violation. I tried to bring the page more in-line with the OA page, but others with first hand knowledge of MOS need to take it from here, and fill in the gaps. --Emb021 20:33, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
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I'd also try and make it a little more objective. Right now there are some subjective parts that aren't neccessarily bad or incorrect but could be considered POV. exempli graitia
"Our council also consistently wins top honors in program quality, and Mic-O-Say plays no small part in those honors. Our dancers are in demand at many Scout and civic functions, and have performed at both National and World Scout Jamborees. O" -- Capi crimm(too lazy to sign in)
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[edit] Charter Members of Mic-O-Say
Ned Gold Sr. is a charter member of Mic-o-Say. His Son Ned Gold jr. has picture of Mr. Gold with H Roe Bartel and one other charter members at Camp Adair. He willing to e-mail them to as soon as he locates them.
Sincerely
Leland Foland TTB Friendly Forest
I wonder about this since there has never been MOS at a camp Adair. The charter members were at Camp Carey/Camp Brinton/Camp Dan Sayre. --flyingember
The Original Mic-O-Say Tribe was located at Camp Brinton, which later was moved to Camp Geiger the current home of Mic-O-Say in the Pony Express Council. The second Mic-O-Say Tribe was started at Camp Dan Sayre which later was moved to the H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation. This is the current home of Mic-O-Say in the HOA Council.Geiger Tribesman (talk) 06:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Mic_O_Say and OA
Can someone explain to me how Mic-O-Say is not in competition with the OA? Does OA also exist in these councils? Can someone be in both organizations? Rlevse 14:24, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
- It's hypothetically possible. the HOAC has 2 camps, Theodore Naish scout reservation and Bartle. Bartle has Mic-O-Say, whereas Naish has OA. however, Naish is smaller, and has less camp sessions. although it's possible for scouts to go down outside of camp sessions to get into OA, most don't. and quite frankly, most who get into mic-o-say don't see the point of OA and view Mic-O-Say as much more desirable. i've heard personal accounts from scouts who are in OA and are both not sure what the point of it is and view it as inferior to m-o-s. those aren't necessarily my opinions, that's just a general consensus. --preschooler@heart my talk - contribs 07:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
- So why do they think MicOSay is so much better? Even if this is so in the case you're talking about, that could be a reflection of the local OA lodge, not all OA lodges. Rlevse 10:01, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
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- it might be, but the fact is that Mic-o-say is an incredible and unique program, and there's really a comroderie and a sense of accomplishment and heritage. for me personally, both of my grandfathers were in the tribe, all of my uncles, my dad, and my brother and all my cousins who are guys. even among circles of friends not related with my own scout experience, there's a special connection with anyone who wears the claws. and i think a part of it is that it is a regional thing and that it is a very exclusive group (in the sense that there are only about 60,000 members), and that it's something that is really earned. almost all of my scout camp memories involve the tribe in some way, from my first opening ceremony to when the chieftain put my claws around my neck. Mic-O-Say is something that none forget even if the memories grow old. it's not that we hold OA in a low esteem, it's that we hold Mic-O-Say in a very high esteem. --preschooler@heart my talk - contribs 17:48, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
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- I can understand that, but I know people who feel the same way about their own troop and OA Lodges. Rlevse 18:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
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all the power to them, really. Mic-O-Say isn't here to "be better than OA". it's here to be it's own scouting honor system, and my point is that it does a really good job of being one. --preschooler@heart my talk - contribs 18:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I just would like to say I am both a OA member and a tribesman and I think it is obvious that the OA is trying to compete with MOS. And MOS is just trying to continue its traditions. I think OA is a pathetic excuse for a Honor Scouting organization, they are just trying to suck up to national. And while I will continue to be a member of the OA, I think Mic-O-Say is the best part of scouts. ~Brave Crazy Copperhead
The Pony Express Council (Camp Geiger St. Joseph, MO) only has Mic-O-Say. The HOAC (H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation Osceola Mo.) has Mic-O-Say and OA, members in the HOAC can belong to both. I would agree with the statements above as I have had the privilege over the years to be a part of Mic-O-Say at Camp Geiger, but also to visit the Bartle Reservation. And several OA lodges. I have also visited Camp Eastman which has a Mic-O-Say/OA Tribe. Mic-O-Say is just like they said something that is earned thru hard work in not only your Scouting Unit but also your community. The Tribe is a special brotherhood and there is a bond that all tribesman have with each other. The Mic-O-Say program is an intricate part of Scouting in the Pony Express Council as Camp Geiger is one of the top 10 Scout Camps, and since the councils inception has produced almost 4800 Eagle Scouts. The Camp this year alone will have campers not only from the state of Missouri, but also, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Colorado & Texas just to name a few. I think this alone speaks volume for the impact the Tribe of Mic-O-Say has in both the PEC and HOAC. I would make this open invitation for anyone who is not a member of Mic-O-Say to come to Camp Geiger any Thursday night during camping season to view our tapping ceremony this will give you a since of the Tribe of Mic-O-Say for info go to http://www.ponyexpressbsa.orgGeiger Tribesman (talk) 06:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Mic-O-Say and Order of the Arrow "Competition"
To Whom It Concerns:
I am both a Tribesman in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say at the H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation, but I am also a Brotherhood member of the Order of the Arrow in the Nampa-Tsi Lodge (the Lodge for the Great Rivers Council).
To address the question of whether or not there is competition between the two programs, I would have to say that yes, there is; however, I do not believe that Mic-O-Say is doing the competing. The ones doing the competing are the Order of the Arrow lodges in the councils surrounding the Heart of America Council. Being a member of the Nampa-Tsi Lodge in the Great Rivers Council, I see this competition all of the time. The Great Rivers Council camps are struggling greatly, and I am sure that many other camps in other councils are in the same boat. Numbers for campers are down tremendously, and this is a major problem. The problem is this: Truthfully, the programs at the camps just aren't quality programs. When you go to Bartle, you can witness the quality program it has to offer: the attractive Mic-O-Say, the large number of program areas, the large amount of merit badges offered, the facilities, etc. Even before I entered the Tribe, I saw the program as superb in comparison to the program offered at the camps in my home council. The whole issue with low numbers of campers in the Great Rivers Council came up in the past few years. The council has been trying to find some way to better its program. They just recently organized a program that is supposed to go into effect this summer camping season, and when I was at meetings for the ratification of the program, it came up several times that they had to better the program to compete with outside camping programs in other councils (Mic-O-Say being the targeted program). And it isn't just competition in that matter. At many different in-council events that I go to, I get downgraded -literally- for being in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say. At several OA events, I am told to remove my Mic-O-Say claws [although I refuse and don't]. I am shunned as being a out-of-council camper by several. When I went to National Jamboree I was somewhat harassed for being a Tribesman. Now, this isn't everyone; however, it does seem like many people. When I go to Bartle, I am not shunned for being an Arrowmen. I am an active member in both programs. I don't know why there is this conflict, but I don't agree with any of it. It is true, though, that the Order of the Arrow program has become diluted over the years. You could ask almost Arrowman and he would say that. Now, I see the spirit there, but I don't see a well organized program. The Tribe is very organized. Some think that the Tribe is too adult-run. Now, it is true that the leadership is composed of adults, but this is to assure that the Tribe carries on consistently throughout ages to come. I see it as financial security and as a way to stabilize the program. The only thing I see differently with OA is that the leadership is sometimes composed of young men who are either too busy to commit to the program fully, or they totally end up blowing it off, but in the Tribe, it is the adults' jobs to see things through and to make sure they get done. The other day I overheard somebody say "It's the adults that make the boys go to Bartle." (This being said in regards to complaining about out-of-council camping troops like ours.) This is wrong. It is the boys that decide to come back to Bartle every year. The Tribe wouldn't survive without the spirit of the Scouts that enter it and become involved in it. For our troop, there just isn't anything in our council to keep Scouts wanting to come back. When you look at the return rate for campers in the Heart of America Council, the number is approximately 4.5 years on average for each Scout. In the Great Rivers Council, this number is two years less. There just must be something special that makes the Heart of America Council return rate this high, and I believe that I have covered this [multiple times, most likely].
I love both programs. I see the good in both, and I am glad that I experience both. I go to all functions in both.
In Scouting,
Adam Morton -- Brotherhood Member of the Nampa-Tsi Lodge; Warrior Shadow of Silent Thunderbird in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say
- This doesn't explain how they're not in competition if they're both honor camper programs; it mainly dwells on poor organization and camp programs. Rlevse 21:01, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I would have to choose to respond to the above article. I have formerly been the Lodge chief of Heart of America council's lodge, Tamegonit. Everything you said is completely true, but completely reciprocal as well. I have been told repeatedly when I attended camp at Bartle to take my arrowhead off, being cited as being at the "wrong" camp. I have also ensured that several youth staff members would not be hired again the following camping season. I agree with you completely- the Tribe has a very stable structure, and its longevity is almost assured for many years to come. As a past lodge chief, I recognized this fact greatly. The one thing I tried to do most of all was to assure some form of continuity in Tamegonit's lodge structure. This is an extremely difficult feat to accomplish because it is youth run, and youth are elected. Further, we often have to turn to Mic-O-Say leadership for capable adults to advise our youth. There have been advisers in our lodge that are in many ways, detrimental to the youth leadership structure, and that is because we cannot find adults willing to dedicate themselves fully to OA every year. However, if you go ahead and take a step back, and look at the big picture, what you see is fairly amazing. Tamegonit Lodge is youth-run, in a council that is not always willing to provide the best adult support they can. This often leaves youth on their own, or working with too many advisers for their own good. The fact that the lodge still exists with youth leadership, should be considered an extraordinary feat. I ask, and I think you know the true answer, would you have been able to lead a lodge when you are 17 years old and in high school? I think the vast majority of people would say no, they would not have the leadership skills or the committment to do so. Even if OA is not the greatest program around, it is still amazing that it has existed on youth leadership for all these years. I know that in recent years, both groups in HOAC have moved to reach out to one another. We accept that we are different groups, but we share many similiarities and can help each other. This is most visible in the fact that every single presiding chief of Mic-O-Say is invited each and every year to participate in lodge events. Whether they choose to or not is up to them. This past year, the chief has been extraordinarily helpful and was even willing to come to an OA event to discuss the differences between the two groups in our council. It was heated for sure, but it was worth it.
One other fact you may be unaware of (unless you are familar with the leaders of the HOAC and Mic-O-Say, you probably haven't heard this), most of the upper level leaders strongly support OA because of the reciprocal benefits it has on Mic-O-Say. OA provides youth with experience in leadership, who can later go on to be leaders in the tribe. This is not to say it is a stepping stone organization, it is just the natural order of the two groups because of the age difference. Tamegonit leaders (at least the upper level ones) strongly support Mic-O-Say for the same reason. It helps keep youth interested in scouting, and subsequentially helps OA's membership.
I strongly support both organizations, and have worked with both groups. They both have shortcomings, but it is only when you fail to see the positives in one group or the other that we have a competition. They are not in competition, they are in cooperation.
[edit] Racism
I was one of those unfortunate kids sent to Bartle in the mid 1970s. I can't believe that this racist fake Indian tribe is still around. It's unfortunate that this entry glosses over the racism of a bunch of white people running around the Ozarks dressed as fake Native Americans. It certainly doesn't help that the Boy Scouts are a homophobic, quasi-fascist organization.
RESPONSE TO THE MAN WHO MADE THE ABOVE STATEMENT ABOUT THE TRIBE OF MIC-O-SAY BEING RACIST:
Excuse me, but the Tribe of Mic-O-Say is NOT a racist program in any way, and I take major offense to your statement. The things we do are carried out in a fashion that is both respectful and honorable to the Native Americans. In no way are we being disrespectful to their traditions and ways of life.
-Anonymous Tribesman (Response Made on May 6, 2006"
September 11, 2006
I would also like to agree with the above Tribesman. One of the reasons that the Heart of America Council has one of the highest Eagle Scout percentages in BSA is because of the Tribe of Mic-O-Say. The tribe gives motivation to return to our beloved reservation every summer. If the tribe is as you say it is, then why are there over 60,000 members?
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This an asertion without fact. Further can you give an actual statement of current active members. How many are youth who actually run the program
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Firebuilder Swift Agile Fox I question the above statistic and would like to see some corroborating evidence. I see it listed in the main article as well, but it strikes me as very POV. While I'm sure the council is proud of their eagle and retention rate, can it really be attributed to M-O-S? Justinm1978 08:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
To help support the above arguement that eagle and retention rates in the HOAC can be attribited to MOS, it should be stated that the PEC also has very high numbers in these categories. The PEC has the only other official Tribe in the country (also the orginal). We do not have an OA lodge, although, as our numbers have been growing at record rates over the last decade we do have several out of council campers that are also members of the OA. Most of these out of council campers (from as far away as Illinois, Texas, and Colorado) that visit our camp -Camp Geiger- fall in love with the MOS program and several scouts request that their leaders allow them to return in future summers. Again, most do. Also, our eagle rate is well over the 4% national average. Because our page is currently under construction, I really don't have much evidence to help support all of this. I can say that I am originally from the HOAC and have attended both camps there, so I do speak from a somewhat knowledgeable background of the Kansas City region. If you really want the best evidence I can offer you, then I would recommend that you bring your troop to either camp Geiger or Bartle in the near future and see it all for yourself. I can garantee you won't be disappointed. Finally, the only piece of hard evidence that I do have to offer is an article from the National BSA homepage that states how our very small council (a little over 3,000 campers attended Geiger in 2006) was able to raise over 2 million dollars for camp improvements. In the article PEC directors attribute the fund raising success to the regional support of the Tribe and it's many loyal members. Link Below. http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=xx&c=ds&terms=pony+express+council In regards to the other posts about competition, I wouldn't say there is much in the PEC. As I stated, we don't have an OA lodge. In previous years, I can admit that I have seen many accounts of OA members being frowned upon at Geiger. Those "old school" thoughts of the past are behind the current leadership. It is one of our goals to welcome all out of council campers and introduce them to our Tribe not in a way that shuns other honor programs, but allows them to see our program and choose for themselves to return or not for future camping seasons. ````
Again, this does not address the Eagle Scot metric and is an assertion without fact. If there is any metric of membership retention it should include Webelos-to-scout transition.
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What is the point here? Local Honor Societies have existed for many years. If the fact that the Central Region, BSA can not deal with them, what can I say? In the other 3 regions, this is not a question. If you can give reason for the Boy Scouts of America to rescind its 1948 decision that there is only one National Honor Society in the Boy Scouts of America then there is no competion, Order of the Arrow is fully integrated and there is a specfic youth leadership position to support this. The Order of the Arrow Troop Representive.
```` In response to the idea of competition on a whole, I believe that both programs have similar goals in mind that not only encourage the scout oath and law, but also encourage scouts to stay on the path to eagle and receive all there is to receive from the scouting program. This is the thinking that the current MOS leadership believes and therefore sees no sense in responding in a non-scouting attitude towards any honor program. ````
These are only assertions without facts. Please provide evidence.
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These are local programs no different from Silver Tomahawk or Tribe of the Silver Marmot. There is no reason to give any one organization precdence over another. Unless there is a great movement to petition the Boy Scouts of America to change the decision made in 1948, there is only one youth run program for boys from 11-21 in Boy Scout program, and that is the Order of the Arrow. We do not have any other official Boy Scout Program to provide leadership opportunity's although the current Exploring/Venturing progam may provide this. Exploring/Venturing is not part of the Boy Scout program.
- Exploring is not part of the BSA. Venturing IS part of the BSA. The Boy Scout program is but one of 3 programs within the BSA (the other two being Cub Scout and Venturing).
[edit] userbox
There is a rather plain Mic-O-Say userbox available. Anyone who wants to make it better looking, feel free.
[edit] There is no reason to delete this section until it can actually fail a fact check.
Removed due to exaggeration and vandalism about the program. Please do not readd. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Flyingember (talk • contribs) 01:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC).
Ok, I was blunt in the change, the wording as to legacy and any professionals visiting is improved. The Tribe of Mic-O-Say is purely a local honor society not approved or recognized by the BSA, only by the local council. I am truly amazed how anyone would think or believe an Adult run and membership controlled would be an enhancement to the Scouting Program. All but maybe 1 of the methods of scouting are violated. It is not democratic. Control is in the hands of adults, not youth. Yes, I can name a dozen OA lodges were youth control is non-existent.
I reedited the page. It should be no different than some none BSA approved program such as Tribe of Tahquitz or Wolfboro Pioneers. These are local programs no different from Silver Tomahawk or Tribe of the Silver Marmot. There is no reason to give any one organization precdence over another. Unless there is a great movement to petition the Boy Scouts of America to change the decision made in 1948, there is only one youth run program for boys from 11-21 in Boy Scout program, and that is the Order of the Arrow. We do not have any other official Boy Scout Program to provide leadership opportunity's although the current Exploring/Venturing progam may provide this. Exploring/Venturing is not part of the Boy Scout program.
[edit] Cited books do not seem to exist
ISBN database searches for the ISBNs provided for the reference works cited in the current revision of this article fail to bring up any matches, something which makes me concerned that some of the added material -- or indeed the whole article -- may be an elaborate hoax. In the absence of any mainstream third-party verifiable reliable sources for this article, I have nominated it for deletion. If you wish to keep this article, please provide citations to independent mainstream reliable sources for the existence of this organization and the assertions in this article. -- Karada 12:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I won't argue or discuss the existence of the cited reference books. However, I strongly disagree with your statement about the article being "an elaborate hoax". Try doing a Google search on "Mic-O-Say". I started in the program almost 40 years ago, and I can attest to the accuracy of the bulk of the article. While there are flaws and mistakes within any article in Wikipedia, this one seems very accurate. -- User:RSStockdale Firebuilder Broken Buffalo of the Tribe of Mic-O-Say
[edit] Citations needed
I removed a bunch of items that were tagged as needing citations from Feb 2007 and April 2007, per WP:VERIFY and WP:NOR. These need to have some kind of verification that isn't self-published before they can come back. Justinm1978 15:54, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Good article
I'm pleased with thi article, its relative objectivity, and the lack of tribal secrets on it. StaticElectric 07:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Review
- Content
- Lead: Needs expansion; remove POV material
- Results: Merge into Legacy section
- History: Some statements are out of chronological order; move section down
- Geiger Purpose: Is Geiger Purpose a group or what? If it is trying to explain the purpose of Camp Geiger then it misses the mark. If it is trying to explain the purpose of the Tribe, then it needs to go in the lead.
- Organization: Needs expansion; merge material from Membership sections
- Membership:
- H. Roe Bartle and Membership: Geiger: I think this means that membership at the two camps is a bit different, but this is never really stated;
- is it really a difference between camps or between councils?
- Foxman needs to be better defined;
- is it really an eagle claw or simulated
- the material on paint responsibilities is not really membership, it belongs under organization
- Needs a short overview of Scouting honor societies for context
- Why is the OA not used in Pony Express Council?
- How does HOAC use the Tribe and the OA? Do they work together or separately?
- Never really states why the Tribe is important; needs to lock down notability
- What other councils use the Tribe and how do they use it?
- What do members actually do? Do they perform service projects?
- Style
- See WP:SCOUTMOS for more help
- Needs reorganization for better flow; see WP:SCOUTMOS
- To many one-sentence paragraphs
- Needs infobox
- Needs more references
- Images
- Needs logo
- Needs active images
- Image:Claws.jpg needs cleanup or replacement
--— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 12:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
