Talk:Trial by ordeal

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}} • (templates)Is it me or are the statements in the first paragraph seem a little bit too apologetical to others too? What on earth makes you believe that trial by ordeal lasted longer elsewhere than it lasted in Europe. For one thing I don't know anything that resembles such a practice in middle east. There were executions without trial, torture so on so forth but I never heard of trial by ordeal. Does the author have a problem admitting there may be meaningless and violent things in comperatively recent european history? After all the whole article is about the practice as it is done in europe but the introduction puts the blame on every culture. How do you know if such a thing existed in Hawaii or not for example?

Didn't trial by ordeal survive on the books in England a lot longer than it was actually used? I know trial by combat did. --Daniel C. Boyer 18:16 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

My understanding is that since the traditional ordeals were supervised by the Roman Catholic clergy, and probably got most of their probative value from the practice of auricular confession, that they fell into disuse with the Reformation. Unlike trial by combat, I don't know of any instances where surprised judges learned that it was still called for. I have Pollock and Maitland at my office, and I can check there on Monday. -- IHCOYC 00:34 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Am I correct in saying that trial by combat was only outlawed in the reign of George III (though it had not been practiced for quite some time)? --Daniel C. Boyer 16:47 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)
You are. The case of Ashford v. Thornton ruled that it was still part of English law in 1818. Now I suspect that the answer to your question has to do with the Roman Catholic Church's decision not to allow priests to participate in the early thirteenth century. Since I strongly suspect that the involvement of the priests was more than merely passive, and that the priests were finagling the outcomes to make sure that the decision they thought right was confirmed by miracle of God in the ordeal, the ban on their participation may have spelled doom for the procedure. Later "ordeals" seem more investigative tools than trials. -- IHCOYC 18:29 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)
According to Blackstone, Henry III abolished trials by ordeal early in his reign, in 1220; see Bl. Commentaries v. IV, p. *418. So while battle continued for some time as a theoretical possibility, ordeal was no longer an option. -- IHCOYC 14:10 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed

The ordeal by water paragraph repeats claims ("dunking of witches") that are the subject of an accuracy dispute in trial by drowning. I have no expertise to help the resolution but I have inserted the dubious marker to flag the need for:

a. A common resolution in both articles

b. Suitable cross links between the two articles

--Cje 19:45, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I seem to not be the only one that connects english "Ordeal" to Late Latin "Ordalium", from Out-Deal "Deal out", anyway, if that's correct, I wonder why that would be Fordalia in Interlingua, and not Ordalia.

The "cursed morsel" - I wonder if this was the source for Eddie Izzard's Cake or Death routine? Ubermonkey 21:32, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Quote: 'a Scandinavian and Anglo-Saxon practice was for the accused to walk nine paces with a red-hot iron bar held in both hands. This is one proposed etymology for the traditional phrase "the whole nine yards."'

The second sentence is literally true - this *is* one proposed etymology - but the chances of it being the true etymology are zero (the phrase is not commonly used in the UK and first appears in the US in the 1960s). This article isn't the place for a discussion of folk etymology; I propose simply deleting that sentence. Amroth 19:12, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

- Question regarding statement in "Ordeal of Fire" section. It is stated "...was described by Gregory of Tours in the seventh century AD". If Gregory of Tours died in 594, I believe the author meant sixth century AD, but I didn't want to change it in case I'm misunderstanding something.67.42.103.2 06:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I have a few minor points of contention on this article's opening and suggestions for references.

1. There should be some qualification in describing the ordeal as a painful task. Although ordeals usually were painful, this was not always the case, such as in the turf ordeal in medieval Iceland (see: William Ian Miller, "Ordeal in Iceland," Scandinavian Studies, 60, pp. 189-218).

2. In discussing the ordeal in other parts of the world, it might be useful to mention the poison ordeal in Africa (see: Roberts, “Oaths, Autonomic Ordeals, and Power,” American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 67, No. 6, Part 2: The Ethnography of Law (Dec., 1965) 3. In the statment: "where the intended effect is magical" add, "or based on a belief in fate" (again, see Miller on Icelandic ordeals)

4. the statement: "Priestly cooperation in trials by fire and water was forbidden by Pope Innocent III at the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215, and replaced by compurgation.[1]" seems to imply that the 4th lateran council replaced the ordeal with compurgation, which is not at all the case. Canon 18 of Lateran IV prohibits clerical involvement in the ordeal (the reasoning seems to be that the ordeal involves the clerical shedding of blood), but does not suggest anything to replace the ordeal. Thus, how the ordeal was to be replaced was left up to secular authorities--and as far as I know, they did not replace the ordeal with compurgation. According to Robert Bartlett's Trial by Fire and Water: The Medieval Judicial Ordeal (New York: Clarendon Press, 1986)--possibly the most useful secondary source on the ordeal--the ordeal was replaced by the trial jury in England and judicial torture in much of the rest of Europe.

5. When discussing England, I am pretty sure one should refer to the Anglo-Saxons, not the Saxons (the latter were Germanic).

[edit] The Young Wizards Series

Diane Duane's wizards, as seen and mentioned VERY often in the Young Wizards Series, must go through something called an "Ordeal" - which is basically a trial by fire (not necesarrily in the literal sense, heh) where they go up against the Lone Power (which Itself is supposed to be the inspiration behind most of the, if you will, Boss Monsters of mythology, as well as being equated with Satan/Lucifer - It is sometimes greeted in the books as "Fair and Fallen", and is known for its devious tactics - and also the inspiration for many of the Native American Trickster gods, since It too invented death and entropy and consistently tricks peoples and worlds into accepting it); this is one of the first things that happens after a wizard takes his or her Oath and is given powers by the Powers That Be. If they pass the test and defeat the Lone Power, they are officially considered a wizard. If they don't, they either die (as part of the consequences of failing to defeat the Lone Power in whatever It was doing; it's noted at one point in the series that many of the missing persons cases in the world are actually wizards disappearing when they fail their Ordeal), or apparently would lose their newly-given powers and all memory of their time as a wizard (or at least, this is suggested in Deep Wizardry; when Nita considers backing out of what she's agreed to do, she's told, as I recall, that there would be dire consequences but that the Powers aren't generally heartless and would probably allow her to escape and therefore live - but not as a wizard. This wasn't her Ordeal, but other than it being a wizard's first - and therefore inherently most frightening - mission, there seems to usually be relatively little to distinguish the Ordeal from a normal mission undertaken on behalf of the Powers. I say "usually" because another wizard in the sixth book had a rather weird one, but it seems to be the exception rather than the rule, given the circumstances in that book). In fact, the whole first book (So You Want To Be A Wizard) revolves around one such Ordeal, which is by its very nature life-threatening; the fact that it's said to be a test of the wizards' mettle and is given special status in the series (the notes in the wizarding directories always mention status, in other words, whether a wizard is on a mission, or available... and it ALWAYS mentions if the wizard is "on Ordeal") would sort of seem to connect to the subject of this article, or else something very similar (the fact that our own internal links make "trial by fire" a disambig that links right back to here at the top lend even further credence; Duane is well-read and the series largely involves a theme or themes of the power and evolution and love of languages - you have to love language in order to be a wizard in her books, because they use the mystical Speech to alter the universe - so it's not inconcievable that the metaphorical trial by fire they undergo is called an Ordeal on purpose).

I say all of this because I think it might be good to change the "parodies" section to "Cultural references" or some similar title, and include this tidbit (though made more concise, of course :P) in there alongside the Monty Python reference. The only reason I'd like to see the title "Parodies" changed is that the "Ordeal" of Duane's wizards seems obviously connected, but it's treated seriously instead of as a joke. The Monty Python mention is excellent, but it's the only parody mentioned and the only parody I can think of. Unless people want to add a Cultural references section and made "Parodies" a subsection of that?

Or, do you disagree that Duane's wizard stories have elements taken from something like this? Certainly the NAME seems to have a common origin, though I can't be positive it isn't a coincidence. That's the only reason I have yet to add this; because I don't want to add OR to it. Hell, Duane edits on Wikipedia herself- maybe we could ask her if the connection is intentional or not? What do you guys think? Runa27 22:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)