Talk:Trentino-Alto Adige

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Notice An archive of the naming discussion can be found at Talk:Trentino-South Tyrol/name. The result of the discussion, including two polls, is for it to be called Trentino-South Tyrol. This article should not be moved to another name.

Contents

[edit] Alcide de Gasperi/Reichstag in Vienna

I partly reverted changes by 87.4.184.58, as no reason was given for changing this part, and I saw no reason for it to be changed. A part of it needed to be documented, namely Alcide De Gasperi's affirmation that most of Trentino-South Tyrol population didn't want to join Italy. For this reason I did not restor this section. --Adriano 17:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I saw that someone had erased a couple of sentences, but I did not revert. Indeed, as you stated above, I noted that those lines are not completely reliable. Even the part you restored has some problems (I quote):

The large Italian minority agitated for unification with Italy, making the issue a key priority for the irredentist movement in Italian politics. Some say that in reality, aside from certain political circles based in Trento, the vast majority of the population never really warmed up to the idea of joining the newly created Italian Kingdom, as their alleagence lays with the Habsburg Empire.. First, irredentism concerned only the Trent area, where italian people were/are a very large majority. Bolzano/Bozen was annexed after WWI becuase of Austria defeat, but it was not considered italian even by irredentists. Secondly, note that this article (as many others) provides no reference. Therefore, statements as like Some say, certain political circles, never really warmed up do not really sound encyclopedic at all. Moreover, both in Austria and Italy, before WWII only a few people were interested in politics. So, the vast majority of population warmed up for nothing at all in that years. I think that irredentism concerning Trent was widespread between italian people interested in politics (upper middle class etc), and most of the historians agree with me (well, actually, I agree with them :) ). Anyway, this can be a disputed issue, and probably googling around you can find sites supporting both the opinions. So, my purpose is:

  • Let's fix the first sentence, maybe saying that annexing Trentino (not South Tyrol) was considered the final step for italian unification, since Trentino was/is an italian region.
  • Let's erase the second sentence (Some say...)
  • Let's try to add some undisputed reference. I have some books that should fit, but unfortunately I am abroad, and I will not be back home before August.
Sorry for the long comment, but this article seems to warm up the vast majority of wikipedians, so I want to be cautious. gala.martin (what?) 21:02, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Dear Gala.martin
You are right in using caution on this point... Unfortunately I am not too strong on that historical issue, and I cannot help much in verifying these assertions. Many other Wikipedians could help though, by searching evidense on the above-mentioned issue...
Until no consensus is reached, I think it makes sense to erase these sentences.
--Adriano 15:19, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

To put into a more fact-based perspective the political stance of the majority of the Tridentine population, it could be useful to point out that as the electoral base enlarged, Trentino sent to Vienna six Catholics, the others being a Socialist (Battisti) and a Liberal. Notice they all were well integrated within the Austrian parties. And the catholics’ stance, obviously spearheaded by Degasperi, was that Trentino was fine as long as its Italian cultural identity wasn’t in danger. Controversy really was the administrative situation of Trentino within Austria: a punitive representation within the Tyrolean parliament meant Trentino was gravely disadvantaged in it (after 1861, 21 representatives on 68), thus the objective was to be released from it. Notice this had been a constant in Tridentine politics ever since the annexation to Austria (I’m going from memory now, but I believe that in the first half of the XIX century Trentino had in Innsbruck 7 representatives out of 51), asking for an independent land or, back then, for unity with Lombardy-Venetia. In fact, in Kremsier this was granted, but subsequently taken back with a second vote because of German Tyrolean heavy pressure.
Primary sources on Degasperi’s early wartime declarations are ambassador in Rome count Macchio’s report to Berchtold, 6-X-1914, quoted more or less in any book detailing the topic, and in Friedrich Funder’s “Vom Gestern ins Heute”.
Ahem. Bottom line: the population before the first world war supported a pragmatic stance as held firmly by Degasperi, Conci and the other Christian Socials of Trentino. However, to see how the effect of WWI administration changed much of that, I direct you to this fundamental source on Degasperi: this page has both the Italian version and reproductions of the Vienna parliament “Stenographische Protokolle” of a dramatic speech by Degasperi in 1918. Final note: “making the issue a key priority for the irredentist movement in Italian politics” is really maladroit, considering that the very essence of irredentism was to reclaim all territories inhabited by Italians to Italy. Kind of suggesting that, say, “the Indonesian government's aim is to govern Indonesia” :) Best, --Tridentinus 09:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


Dear Tridentinus,
I do not want to cause another endless discussion. But, for clarity's sake, when you talk about Trentino, do you mean the Province of Trento or the whole Trentino South-Tyrol? Regards.--Adriano 01:32, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for not having been precise: of course I was talking about Trentino only. As, in fact, was Degasperi, who was questioned by Macchio (and, incidentally, Italian minister Sonnino around the same time; see Il giovane De Gasperi/Der junge De Gasperi, a bilingual book published in 2004 by the Regional Council of Trentino-South Tyrol) about the loyalties of the Tridentine people. Also, I don't want to create a discussion, I was merely answering a question. No polemic intent. Peace, --Tridentinus 09:55, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


Peace!--Adriano 11:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit-block for IP-Adresses

I bocked IP-edits temporarely since some IP-Editors don't respect edits by other people. Sorry for that. I hope we can unprotect the page again soon. (When the anonym people promise to stop vandalising).

If you have something to say, add your comment at the END of a discussion.

Signing your comment is very much appreciated.

If you change comments of other people, that is vandalism in Wikipedia. Please stop doing this, thanks. Fantasy 10:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Just a question: why doesn't wikipedia simply block the possibility to edit articles by non registered users? I once read that it would soon be so... --Adriano 15:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Quite simple: Most anonymous edits are very valuable edits. Only a view people try to hide their bad deeds. I was also not able to believe it, but just read the IP edits in recent changes, and you will see, we would loose many many good things ;-) Fantasy 15:17, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the explanation...--Adriano 15:41, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Mainly, editing from unregistered users is wikipedia. If you force people to join the project, that's not wiki anymore. Registration is available in order to improve coordination, but wild contributions are the core of the project (even if most of edits are done by registered users). --gala.martin (what?) 14:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Agree on this point. My impression is only that most of vandalism is carried out by non registered users... --Adriano 11:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Should we protect the page against anonymous users and new ones in that case? Gryffindor 21:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


Dunno. Seems that all this vandalism is calming down now... --Adriano 16:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I unprotected this page now again, it should never be a long-term blocking, just a tool to calm down extremists and people who have problems.

It seems there is someone who really has problems but I don't want to block Wikipedia for flaming people like this one. If you see fascist accusations somewhere about someone, just delete it, this is not the way to work in Wikipedia. We use arguments.

I look forward to read also good anonym contributions :-) Fantasy 18:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] italyzone.it spam link?

Please note: someone (signing with "Enrico 69") has insisted in inserting a link - namely italyzone.it - on the Trentino-South Tyrol page - even after that a registered user had removed it. Not being a big expert in Wikipedia rules, I thought to remove it once more, opening a discussion on whether this is spam or not. --Adriano 07:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] should be moved

This page should be moved to either: 1) Trentino-Alto Adige or 2) Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. I will be asked to read the archives, and I have. A user Gryfindor has pushed for South Tyrol with an obsession, originally moving the page without consensus. If you simply use the Google Test, you will find that Trentino-Alto Adige is the name used in English. I've seen this page has been cleaned up a lot though, taking out the strong German POV.

Dear anonymous contributer,
This matter has already been discussed previously. Please read what has already been discussed under Talk:Trentino-South Tyrol/name.
Regards. --Adriano 19:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear Adriano, how can you ask me this, whe I said I read all the previous discussions. I respect there have been previous discussions, but that does not mean the decisions were correct. As I've said, this page was originally moved without consensus by the user Gryffindor. After that there have many Austrians that have pushed for a particular English naming convention. To me, after considering all the points, and the actual reality of the situation, this page should really be listed as Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. Also, the provinces are Bolzano-Bozen (BZ) and Trentino (TN). That we now have the Province of South Tyrol (BZ) is becomming a bit crazy, don't you think? It is really simple, we should have the REGION Trentino-Alto Adige/Suditirol. The next pages being the Province of Bolzano-Bozen and the Province of Trento. Then finally the cities, Bolzano-Bozen and Trento. take care. Taalo 20:08, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name of South Tyrol / Bozen Province

What's the name of the norther Trentino-South Tyrol province? If you read the map on the page, it says Bozen. If you follow the rule-of-thumb, all other Italian provinces are named after their main city. I do not see the reason why this province should make exception... Moreover in the article it states "In Bolzano-Bozen province or South Tyrol.." , so it should be accepted. Before causing a row on this point, by changing it once more, I would like to see if there is consensus on this point. --Adriano 19:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The name of the northern province is Bolzano-Bozen. The name of the southern province is Trento. This part is kind of obvious if you see any list of the provinces of Italy.  :) Taalo 20:09, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trentino Alto Adige/Sudtirol

Open letter to all. I, as is Fantasy, am from this region. My family has been from here for centuries, and I have both Italian and German blood. I'm so proud of this region, it is beyond explanation. Why not? It is my home. I love to go down to Bolzano-Bozen and see both the Germans and Italians. I would be happy to meet with Fantasy one day, share a bottle of Forst, because anyone from this region has a strong connection. What I have seen though on the WP pages is downright depressing and is an insult to this region. You don't have to be Ph.D. to look at how things have been manipulated to put things in a particular POV, a German POV. I am part German for God's sake, but I wouldn't want to see this sort of bias. The region should simply be labeled on WP as Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. This is how it is in the constitution, and this shows how WE, the people from this region, call this region. It is easy to look at Sudtirol and say South Tyrol in English, yes. But this is taking advantage to enforce a particular POV. What is more crazy is seeing now the Province of Bolzano-Bozen (BZ) listed as simply South Tyrol. What are we playing on here now, colonization through WP? The provinces (states, what have you) are Bolzano-Bozen and Trento. You see this on any list of provinces of Italy, you see it on the signs locally, you see it on the license plates of the cars. I have a TN and BZ license plate hanging up here in my room! Also, all the names in BZ are listed with both Italian-German, just as in French Canada both names are listed. We list them as Bolzano-Bozen, Merano-Meran, Brennero-Brenner. This is again on all the signs. Switching them around to Bozen-Bolzano, etc. is just getting to the point of being ridiculous. Please lets correct things finally and drop this game. What has been done is really just very sadening, and I think I'm going out on a limb here putting my emotions out on the table like this. Please respect my region, my home. Taalo 21:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Taalo, my only question to you is how you mention that "it is my home" yet you tell me on my talk page "but I am a native English speaker based in the USA"? Which one is it? Are you from the region, now living in the US? Is your heritage from the region (as my heritage is from England and Bavaria)? Or are you living over there now? Rarelibra 03:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
my heritage is from the region, I call US my birthplace and home. I visit the region every year, so I'm definitely aware what is actually fact or fiction. Taalo 18:55, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The question is: how is this region called in English by English mothertongue (and not in German, Italian or Ladin)? This is the point. As long as there is a re-direct link from the other options, all those who want to reach this article will be able to do so.
IMHO, all the rest regards politics, and has nothing to do here.
Please also remember that this is just a name. ("That which we call a rose by any other word would smell as sweet.") Ok, you could say that people fought - and even died - to use one or the other... but in Italian or German. Not in English.
To Taalo, you say that you have read the previous discussions, and that the fact that a previous discussion was closed doesn't mean that it was correct.
By reading what you write it seems to me that you do not bring any new points which could entail a re-opening of the discussion... I say that out of my memory, and I may be wrong.
So, please, could you state what are the new elements, if any, which could bring to reconsidering the renaming? --Adriano 10:48, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Adriano, English is my mothertonque. In English we actually simply call this region Trentino-Alto Adige. Check out the CIA world factbook on Italy as an example. That's it, simple. Well, how about the point that the page for the Province of Bolzano is called South Tyrol? You are from Italy, I assume? You should definitely be aware then the names of the provinces of Italy. In my region, there are two: Province of Trento and Province of Bolzano/Bozen. I can't believe I have to argue for this point. :) ciao. Taalo 18:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Adrianao - Here are the 'new' elements needed: http://www.countriesandcities.com, where they actually have the correct English usage for the regions: http://www.countriesandcities.com/countries/it/regions.htm, and the provinces: http://www.countriesandcities.com/countries/it/provinces.htm. Note that where there is an English translation availble: Naples (Napoli), Venice (Venezia), the English is used. It should be noted there is no English translation of places like Trento and Bolzano (or the German Bozen). Definitely the translation of the Province of Bolzano-Bozen is not South Tyrol. So Taalo is correct, and the renaming shall commence to correct this situation. Rarelibra 12:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
You would *really* imagine that that reference http://www.countriesandcities.com, would of been enough to set the record straight. I mean, you how describe this all above is 100% correct. Taalo 19:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The official site (http://www.regione.trentino-a-adige.it/) has no listing of "South Tyrol" - only the Italian version (Trentino-Alto Adige) and the German version (Trentino-SÜDTIROL). The proper English equivalent is "Upper Adige" (as "alto" is "upper"). So that is what it should be. I am getting administrators involved to stop this nonsense and to make it correct, and to get rid of "South Tyrol". Rarelibra 16:15, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Even though what is funny with this website, is if you go to it and click on "Provincia autonoma di Bolzano" or "Bozen", you get the front page of the provincial website, http://www.provincia.bz.it/ that says in English "Welcome to South Tyrol". I don't know if people have been confused by this, or have used it to their advantage. But I can say, there is definitely a misconception that can be had from this page. They are saying welcome to the region, instead of welcome to the Province of Bolzano/Bozen -- which the province is clearly called. Hey, never put it past us Italian/Austrians to make things confusing. :) Taalo 19:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
South Tyrol is a long-standing English term for the German "Südtirol." "Upper Adige" is, so far as I am aware, not a term commonly used in English. Personally, Trentino-Alto Adige is the name I am most familiar with, but I see no particular problem with use of the term "South Tyrol" in English. john k 16:39, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree that South Tyrol is a common English translation of the German Südtirol. Upper Adige is a less clear translation, because in English we usually use just the Alto Adige. So is it better then to call the page Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol? The important thing, in my opinion, is to include both the Italian-German. Taalo 19:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I personally see issue with it, as there is no reference to "South Tyrol" at all, especially in an official capacity (how much more official can you get than the home page of the region?). "South Tyrol" is an English derivative of "Sudtirol", however, the region is Italian, and such the proper translation should come from the "Alto-Adige" or "Upper Adige". If you really want to get technical, you can call it all the names... thus, it would be "Trentino-Upper Adige" (Trentino-South Tyrol, Trentino-Alto Adige, Trentino-Sudtirol). But the proper name should be Trentino-Alto Adige. Since people keep pushing a German or Austrian POV, that makes this article INCORRECT. The proper POV here is English (hence, an English wiki article). So, if anything, the proper translation is "Upper Adige" or simply use the "Trentino-Alto Adige" version. Rarelibra 16:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually it is true that the most correct way to call the page would be Trentino-Alto Adige. This is how the page was called until it was moved without consensus in October of 2005. If you do a Google Test, Trentino-Alto Adige comes up in the 10s of millions. It is also the name used in the CIA factbook, etc., etc., etc. However, as this is obviously a big deal amongst Italians and Germans in this mixed Italian-German region, it seems reasonable to come up with a title page that reflects the mixed heritage. Even in the Italian constitution they list it as Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. Lets have the German side give a little too, ok? Trentino-Alto Adige, Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol, Trentino Alto Adige/South Tyrol, Trentino-Upper Adige/South Tyrol could all be compromises. Trentino-South Tyrol clearly is not. That said, calling the Province of Bolzano/Bozen instead South Tyrol. Now that is getting actually -- extreme. Taalo 18:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FOR THE RECORD

All of the official sources list the name correct as stated.

The references are as follows: http://www.statoids.com/uit.html http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gmap&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-108&srt=npan&col=aohdq http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gcis&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-108&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=x&geo=-1956 http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gpro&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-1956&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=x&geo=491419135 http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Italy_Autonomous_regions.htm

The region is "Trentino-Alto Adige" (alternate name "Sudtirol"), and the province is "Bolzano" (alternate name "Bozen"), and the town is "Bolzano" (although the Italians list it as "Bolzano-Bozen" for the dual-names method). That is INDISPUTABLE and solves this. Rarelibra 20:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)