Talk:Tree

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"a practice is known" --> "a practice known". From a few words before "dendrochronology".71.7.166.165 (talk) 02:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Can anyone help to determine what species of Maple is this?

The image is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Maple#Anyone_know_what_specie_is_this.3F

I didn't even know that Maples could grow in Brazil, but maybe it depends on the Maple's specie. So, can someone guess? --201.53.61.233 (talk) 14:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

  • In brazil snows every year, even if just a few days. That in the southern mountains, since southern brazil is Brazil's coldest region. The city in which there is that Maple, is located in Rio Grande do Sul, at 800m (2624 ft) above sea level. (Gramado) --SangeYasha (talk) 18:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tree facts

Some conservation and non-profit organizations focus on the planting of trees as the best solution to combat ecological degradation. Initiatives include the efforts of Dr. Wangari Maathai in Kenya through the UNEP Billion Tree Campaign. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tamaratrouts (talk • contribs) 22:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bamboo

Should we put bamboo here? It is a kind of grass, and I have seen it called a tree and not called a tree.

Bamboo is a grass, in the Order Poaceae, so I think it should stay well out of trees. Just my thoughts though :-) HelloMojo 04:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The article ought to make it clear that the tree form has evolved separately in unrelated plant classes as an example of parallel evolution. Larger varieties of bamboo may very well be considered trees, just as large woody perennial beans like locust, or a large woody perennial in the lilly family like the joshia tree. - Michael J Swassing (talk) 23:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC) this one of the environmental facts

[edit] Twigs

There are important distinctions between branches and twigs. Branches are heavy structural elements, representing fairly mature tissue, that support twigs. Twigs, on the other hand, specifically bear leaves, flowers, fruit, and buds usually have a markedly different bark and appearance from branches. Twigs are critically important in species identification. I'll edit the separate branch and twig articles later to make sure this is reflected. --user:jaknouse

[edit] Groups of trees

A small group of trees growing together is called a grove? or copse,

My understanding is that a copse refers to a group of trees that is managed by coppicing rather than simply a 'small group of trees'? quercus robur 15:50, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
No, I've seen copse used frequently to describe a small stand of trees that have grown completely naturally. One could look it up to be sure though. -lommer 06:10, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] champion trees

Should champion trees really be included on this page? I think maybe it should have its own page linked from this one. I'm a huge fan of champion trees, but while this page doesn't even really mention trees use as an agricultural product (good or bad, it's pretty relevant)- it does have a whole section on champion trees, something I think should be distinct.

Or how about instead of "champion trees" this section is renamed something like "tree maximums" or the like. The term "champion" usually refers to programs and lists such as American Forests National Register, state champion lists, the UK Tree Register, etc., which are somewhat competitions, hence the concept of a "champion". This segment is more related to the potential maxima of species or trees in general than any lists. Though links or reference to some of those lists are useful.Mar. 2006

I agree that the term "Champion tree" is misleading, and perhaps a seperate article would be more appropriate, possibly summarized in here. 84.238.23.78 13:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The number 1 tree for girth is incorrect - the figure given is for the circumference, not diameter as stated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.193.240.202 (talk) 01:26, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Champion Trees should have it's own page linked from this one. The number one tree for girth should be Tane Mahuta at 13.77m see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tane_Mahuta —Preceding unsigned comment added by DougRW (talk • contribs) 18:35, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cacao

Since when is cacao moved from Sterculiaceae to Malvaceae? Can you provide a source for that? Guettarda 23:40, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Soil Use Misconception

I added this paragraph earlier today, but an annonymous user took it out:

Contrary to popular misconception, trees do not take soil from their roots in order to grow. Like all plants, they instead use the enegy from sunlight to convert gases in air into simple sugars, a process known are photosynthesis. These sugars are then used by the tree as building-blocks to make branches, roots and leaves.

I'd rather not start an edit war over it, but think the information ought be in the article somewhere. Thoughts? Jwanders 23:15, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Fixed a typo in your passage. While photosynthesis is the main way trees grow (e.g. they use the carbon from carbon dioxide), trees do get nutrients and water from the soil, so this passage could use some work. I'd want an expert to fix it.

The nutrients that trees extract from soil is via osmosis and the nutrients are converted into a salt state by water.. Trees do not remove mineral soils from the ground. HelloMojo 04:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The area of soil directly surrounding the roots of a tree are known as the rhizosphere and is well known in the field of ecology to be teeming with complex symbiotic relationships of microorganisms.

Mycorrhizal hyphae form a network of fungal filaments that loosely connect small soil fragments. Cutting and uprooting of trees often kills the local mycorrhizal hyphae leading to soil erosion in proportion with the level of deforestation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tamaratrouts (talk • contribs)

[edit] I.D. this Tree

Does anyone know what kind of tree this is? 71.98.19.72 03:30, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe a Loblolly Pine? Do they grow in Wisconsin? You might ask for an I.D. at Talk:Pine. --Allen 05:47, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Probably a red pine, Pinus resinosa.--68.238.127.14 14:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Try the tree identification program on the web.

[edit] oldest trees

see Talk:Lagarostrobos_franklinii --Espoo 09:47, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

The one on this page is a 2500 year old individual specimen, different from the 10500 year old stand you were talking about. SCHZMO ✍ 19:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tree Growth - coverage in Wikipedia

Where in Wikipedia would one go to look for an encyclopedic description of tree tip (leader? or top leader?) growth in single-trunk trees like many pines and spruces? I have spent some amount of time poking around Wikipedia in the Tree, Pine, Pinophyta, Spruce, and Evergreen articles, plus many other articles they refer to, and have not been able to find a description of the phenomena. I recall reading about how the tree top-shoots (new growth cells) know to grow taller/straighter than their neighbors many years ago in a book, but do not recall much else. As you can see, I am not a biologist or botanist.

So I don't know if I am just searching in the wrong way within Wikipedia, or if it is merely something that has not yet been stubbed out in Wikepedia. Thanks. N2e 18:55, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Have a look at the article Apical dominance--Melburnian 03:42, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Good point! - I've linked apical dominance now - MPF 00:03, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Melburnian and MPF! N2e 00:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] That's not a pic of a tree!

Uhh...is it me or is the picture that comes up at the front page a "penis"?? That's not a tree. I'm removing it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Housefan (talk • contribs) .

Vandalism from User:Ronnyweasle. He replaced pictures on several other pages. SCHZMO ✍ 19:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anyone know this ability of trees?

I don't know what this property of trees is called and I'm hoping someone out there does. If a sign is nailed to a tree, over time the tree will slowly engulf the sign until it is part of the tree and can not be removed without damaging the tree. An example of it can be found here.

http://img376.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1199956624292d29afco1em.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/davenewt/119995662/

Does anyone know what this behavior or property is called?
Who8myrice 04:17, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

As the tree grows into the foreign object, its cambial layer is "wounded" (disturbed) and callus tissue grows around the object to isolate it physiologically from the object. The callus growth can be seen directly to the right of the sign in the externally linked photos. This allows the tree to continue growing and eventually "envelop" the foreign object. The photo on the right shows another example. I'm not aware of a word or short phrase that describes the process, it would be handy if there was one then we could write an article on it :)--Melburnian 07:31, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
On the topic of the ability of trees, is it myth or true that the bulges of unusual form are cancerous, and it is the tree that is pushing them out? I heard that this part of a tree produces very cool designs for woodwork sculpturing, due to the ring patterns. Woody
Have a look at burl Melburnian 12:18, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

ya my grandfather has placed a number of objects in to trees, a crowbar, paddle, chains, ect. don't think I have any photos but I'll see if I could get any of my cousins to take photos Jedi canuck 17:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trees in popular culture section?

I have been thinking. Well, trees are a huge inspiration for many of the arts, (especially photography and music), and I was wondering whether it would be worthwhile to create a "Trees in Popular Culture" section to expand the article a bit. If something like this already exists, please post a link, I have a lot of contributions to make. Cheers, woody.

I'm inclined to agree. Just off the top of my head, I can think of Birnam Wood in Macbeth, the Ents in The Lord of the Rings, Shel Silverstein's The Giving Tree, Grandmother Willow in Disney's Pocahontas, and Barbara Walters's famous question to Katharine Hepburn, and I'm not even trying very hard. Certainly, the topic deserves more discussion than it's getting. Agur bar Jacé (talk) 23:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Non-trees and contenders

Shouldn't there be a mention of border-line cases like palms and banana plants that are sometimes called trees, and whether and why they don't qualify as trees? mglg(talk) 20:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed


[edit] Apical dominance, again

The first part, defining just what constitutes a tree, now says :having secondary branches supported on a single main stem or trunk with clear apical dominance . Which is not exactly true. Many decurrent trees do not strongly exert apical dominance, hence their form. Individual limbs or leaders on these trees do, but overall, saying single main stem with apical dominance is a defining feature of anything classified as a tree is incorrect. But I'm not changing anything until I hear more opinions. --Trees4est 18:06, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Many species of salix, for example, show little or no apical dominance.The Boy that time forgot 16:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major tree genera

This list takes up a huge portion of the article's vertical size. It should probably be moved to the end of the encyclopedic content and split into two columns if workable. It might even be better simply to link to such a list, though I can't find any existing 'List of trees' type article that is this extensive. Perhaps the list here should be placed somewhere like List of major tree genera? Richard001 04:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Life Stages

I removed the statement referring to 30cm being the minimum diameter for sawlogs. Not true across the globe, i.e, minimum top diameter for softwood sawlogs in Britain is 16cm (under bark).The Boy that time forgot 21:31, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Reference for above,- Anon. (1990). Classification and Presentation of Softwood Sawlogs. Forestry Commission Field Book 9. HMSO. London. ISBN 0-11-710280-6

[edit] Champion Trees

The section on champion trees lists the Australian Mountain-ash as third tallest at 97m. If you follow the link to the Wikipedia page on Mountain-ash it refers to a 114.3m specimen, measured by theodolite and tape measure after it was felled. Should we update this page to be consistant with the one on Mountain-ash ? Thoughts ? Robprain 03:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this a list of the tallest trees ever or a list of the ones still alive? Think outside the box 12:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit]

Can I just get a count of roughly how many tree types there are ? --terlmann


does anyoen know if there is a list that i can find with the types of trees in each state of the US? Nextandbestchristine 03:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Semi-protect?

With the nearly daily vandalism, does anyone think it may be a good idea to semiprotect the page, at least for a little while?--Trees4est 11:34, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The Boy that time forgot 20:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Request for semi-protection was rejected, Wikipedia:Requests for protection, the admin felt that there had not been enough activity. The Boy that time forgot 22:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Is it time to request semiprotect again? Lots and lots of vandalism over the past couple weeks. Rickterp 16:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree, trees do NOT grow in toilet bowls.

[edit] Really needs work

The last edit that isn't totally screwed (as of right now, as far as I can tell) is 14:36 on March 2. The next addition has stayed on for some reason, poorly written and superfluous, though the environmental implications of trees should be more thoroughly explained. There have been numerous subsequent edits, mostly vandalism and reverts, but some other gobbeldygook (almost literally) has stayed around and the few good additions need to be kept, including the tags; this page needs help. I don't have the time now, does anyone else?--Trees4est 02:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Units

This article is in SI units throughout, except one editor continues to change only some of the units to metric (on the historical basis that Darwin used English units). I have changed it twice, and placed vandal warnings on the editor's talk page, after pointing out twice to this editor that the place to discuss these revision is on the article's talk page. It is clear that User:The way, the truth, and the light has no intention of working within Wikipedia style guidelines or acknowledging them in any way. So, here, who thinks that anytime Darwin is quoted on Wikipedia it should be in English units? Well, this isn't the place to discuss this, the place to discuss policy or style changes are in those areas. KP Botany 01:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

So, should the discussion in this article of Darwin's measurements of a tree be English first, with metric in parantheses for the first two instances, then metric only for the third measurement in the same sentences? Obviously not, and I've stacked it against answering yes, but far be it for me to present some other editor's arguments for them, when they'd rather just edit war over the issue. KP Botany 01:55, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The manual of style takes the position that if there is a dispute about the ordering of unit system measurements, the source unit should be first, see [1]. Darwin's measurements were likely in feet as per being the primary unit in the cited source and others, see [2]. Now, on the matter of this "dubius" vs. "anomalous" thing, I think a better and more neutral wording would be that it "may be an anomaly as..." since this the word dubius carries some implication of falsehood, in which case there should be a reference that indicates that. Citing a source and then saying there's a likelihood that it's false is not really good fact construction...However, I did reword it so that it says "up to 130 ft", as the source says since otherwise the sentence implied that there was only one of that size and could be interpreted as that size range being uncommon. Cquan (after the beep...) 02:11, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
OK. I changed it back to '40 m' because converting 130 ft to 39.6 m is false precision. I care more about avoiding that than the order of the units, actually. The way, the truth, and the light 02:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Okay, so, mixing units is fine. Then, please go in and change every single unit to reflect its source, Cquan. One of the most important style guidelines on Wikipedia that prevents articles from being a mish-mash of SI/English, American/British spellings is "Articles should use the same spelling system and grammatical conventions throughout." If you want a list of 50 measurements and insist they all be written SI or American units first depending upon their source, then go for it, change the entire article--change every article that sources science over the past 400 years in the English world, making sure its the proper English weights and measures for all older quotations, SI for newer quotations in everywhere but the USA, and American units for modern USA sources--in fact, I'll propose it at the community board. And, please, feel free to go right ahead and even mix units in the same sentence as you've done with this article. I don't think, however, that people will look at this so narrowly as you did, Cquan. I think people will say, this will make Wikipedia harder to read, harder to research, and will lead to silly results like what is in the Tree article, where 50 measurements have SI first, and one has English weights and measures first in part of the sentence, but drops down to SI in the same sentence. KP Botany 04:24, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't even have turned this sentence in on a paper in third grade:

"Charles Darwin reported finding Fitzroya cupressoides with trunk circumferences of up to 130 ft (40 m)[4], implying a diameter of about 40 ft (12 m), but this may be an anomaly as the largest known are less than 5 m.[5]"

KP Botany 04:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Here's a good section that needs rewritten to comply with this use the source:
  1. Coast Redwood Sequoia sempervirens: 115.55 m (379.1 ft.)
  2. Coast Douglas-fir Pseudotsuga menziesii: 100.3 m (329.1 ft.)
  3. Australian Mountain-ash Eucalyptus regnans: 318.2 ft. (97.0 m)
  4. Sitka Spruce Picea sitchensis: 96.7 m (317.3 ft.)
  5. Giant Sequoia Sequoiadendron giganteum: 94.9 m (307.1 ft.)

These all need changed to cubic feet:

  1. Giant Sequoia Sequoiadendron giganteum: 55,040 ft3, General Sherman
  2. Coast Redwood Sequoia sempervirens: 36,890 ft3, Del Norte Titan tree
  3. Western Redcedar Thuja plicata: 17,650 ft3
  4. Kauri Agathis australis: 400 m³, Tane Mahuta tree (total volume, including branches, 516.7 m³)

The Agathis will be found to have been measured by the Aussies first, and they will want it referenced to the Australian measurement, so only the first three should be in cubic feet, and the final one can remain in cubic meters.

How about posting a question about this on the International arborist tree forum TreeWorld.com which is based out of Australia. Personally, I say go with the most recognized and used measurement. But it wouldn't hurt to get some Australian feedback. Also, a few of those Aussie arborists on the forum may have a few things to add to this article.Mdvaden 01:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Here we go with the stoutest trees in compliance with this policy of going with the source: The stoutest single-trunk species in diameter, excluding baobabs, are:

  1. Jequitibá Carinaria excelsa Casar.: 23 ft.
  2. Giant Sequoia Sequoiadendron giganteum: 885 cm
  3. Kauri Agatha australis: 8.5 m
  4. Coast Redwood Sequoia sempervirens: 7.44 m
  5. Eucalyptus obliqua: 6.72 m
  6. Western Redcedar: Thuja plicata, 599 cm

The General Grant tree is given in cm, as is the T. plicata. Having measured the things with the US Forest Service, they do tend to measure dbh in cm, so we'll need feet, meters, and centimeters as units. Looks lovely. KP Botany 04:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually looking back on it, that sentence is a little confused...it should probably say the largest known extant examples are less than 5 m or something like that. And no, I used a very specific bit of the MOS referring to disputed cases, not in general:
"If editors cannot agree about the sequence of units, put the source value first and the converted value second"
At the time (as far as I saw), this was the only disputed instance, so that's where I applied it. The MOS does state to use SI as the main units, but with exceptions:
"For units of measure, use SI units as the main units in science articles, unless there are compelling historical or pragmatic reasons not to do so"
Since this figure is (presumed) from a primary source, that is (at least a bit) compelling. In any case, the main dispute seems to be about precision, so feel free to toggle it around now that it's clear the order isn't that important. Also, I just offered it as a (passing by) compromise to an obvious edit war, so no need to bite my head off. Cquan (after the beep...) 04:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Read the source, the largest known extant example is 426 cm. It's not from a primary source, you can tell from the url--Darwin didn't publish his data on the web. Precision is a matter of original research, we don't know the figures they calculated from, so we shouldn't be adjusting precision, or at least show me where it says about rounding, or we should know what 2.54 cm to the inches is....
The problem is User:The way, the truth, and the light was asked repeatedly to discuss the issue instead of reverting. He chose to revert. This user has already been blocked for edit warring, and he chose, soon after being blocked for edit warring, to engage in an edit war again, instead of discussing the issues, when asked to
As to false precision do either of you realize that 2.54cm to the inch is precise? 130 ft to (39.6 m) is 3 digits in both units, and 3 digits in the conversion factor, as for 40 ft (12 m), it's got 2 digits in the feet, and 2 in the meters--exactly where is the "false precision?"[3] KP Botany 05:02, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok I realize there's probably no actual "primary source" on the web for Darwin's work in this case, but it's pretty obvious it would have been in feet since he was an English scientist and the SI convention wasn't around at the time. And strictly speaking, the convention on "precision" says you only count significant digits until you hit a zero, so in theory 130 is only 2 sig. figs (in engineering you actually write 130. with the decimal if you want to be completely clear)...but again, I doubt Darwin was working with that notion and 130 is likely an estimate/rough measurement anyway. Anyway, on the revert war thing, you should discuss it on the talk page and if you can't agree, let a consensus of editors decide. I'm not disputing anything about the conduct in that sense, but I thought maybe a compromise may smooth things out...guess I was horribly wrong there...so sorry. Cquan (after the beep...) 05:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Pretty standard for sig figs is "Zeros at the end of a number and to the right of a decimal are significant, for example:" like the Wikipedia article says (it could be wrong), and that's how I've always used them. 1.3 * 10 sqared has 2 sig figs, but 130 has 3.
Yes, I know you're supposed to discuss it on the talk page, but I couldn't convince The way of that. And others have failed to convince him of that to the point where he was blocked from editing while he thought of it. This block apparently had no impact, as The way has no intention of using the talk page to discuss the issue and reach a consensus.
Making a decision about the editing of one sentence in an article, without looking at the readability of the whole article, just creates the sort of second rate articles Wikipedia does not need. Why not look at the entire article and see that probably a number of these other units were given in English weights and measures, while another large portion come from sources written in SI. What should be done, should one sentence be changed to match the source? Why only one sentence? Should all parts be changed to match the source? This article is rich with measurements, rigid consistency will keep the user from getting confused. I think the Darwin line should just be taken out if it has to be written one way that reduces the overall readability of the article. It adds nothing to do this. KP Botany 05:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Perfect, lose the sentence. In all honesty, maybe I'm trying a tad too hard to adhere to AGF in this case...that "compromise" idea gave me a headache. In any case, now that this is back on the "consensus determining" discussion, the sentence should go or be completely generalized liberally using terms like "about" or "approximately". Cquan (after the beep...) 05:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't really want to respond to someone whose method of discussion appears to be hurling insults, but I will explain myself. Regardless on how he got it, there is no way that Darwin's 130' has three figures of precision; it should not be converted to 39.6 m. You have decided to have this discussion in two places, the other of which I have read. The comparison to the Centimetre article is silly; that conversion is defined to be exact. Your analogies above were obvious exaggerations and not worthy of response. I will change the order, but only because I do not want to dispute with someone whose intention is to stir up trouble. The way, the truth, and the light 06:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
So says the user who refused invitations to discuss the issue on the talk page, opting to just revert instead,. If you don't know what significant figures are, that's fine, though, there's an article on it in Wikipedia where you can learn about it, and information on the web. Your reading Darwin's mind is original research and pure speculation on your part, though, and is no part of producing an encyclopedia. Cquan agrees to the sentence being removed, so I'll remove it. KP Botany 19:14, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

ummmmm......

[edit] Link

I once found a website that could guide you to figuring out what the name of a tree was. It would ask you a series of questions (What do the leaves look like? The bark? etc.) and then give you the result. If someone else finds that website (I don't remember where it is), it would be an excellent candidate for the external links section of this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.237.89.173 (talk) 05:18, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

fjdshg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.247.125.123 (talk) 21:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Trees A tree is a woody plant. Trees come in all shapes and sizes but most of them measure around 10 cm of diameter. If it wasn't for trees we could have been dead because we need clean oxygen (air) to survive and trees produce it. Trees have an important role in producing oxygen and reducing carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. By: M.D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.247.125.123 (talk) 21:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spam

Can these external links be added to the main 'Tree' page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sw81245 (talk • contribs) 14:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

No, they are spam. See WP:SPAM and WP:EL. Ward3001 (talk) 17:13, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tallest Trees based on today's specimens.

Claiming that the tallest verified Douglas fir is 326 feet is the same as murdering all NBA players over 7 ft, and claiming the tallest confirmed player is 6'11.

Thousands upon thousands of acres of Old Growth Douglas Fir have been wiped out through 150 years of logging and forest fires. Perhaps just a handful of a percent of the original Old Growth, live on. Loggers in Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia had certainly come accross Douglas Fir which exceeded the Doerner fir in stature and volume. Lynn Valley N. Vancouver had been exstensively logged, and its tallest recorded specimen was 415 feet in 1902. If this is unbelievable, then one can atleast believe in the 350 ft tall firs felled there in 1907. 340, and 360 ft Douglas Fir were felled in Cloversdale by loggers, in 1881, and measured by foresters. Hastings mill on Burrard Inlet recorded their largest tree at almost 400 feet, felled in South Vancouver in 1896. Or how about the Westholme Giant, a 1,500 year old 350 foot Douglas Fir blown over in 1919, on Vancouver Island... Not to mention the giant firs of Nisqually, and Mineral, Wash.

Most of these turn of the century measurements were taken after the trees were felled--reducing error dramatically. Measurements taken while the tree still stood, are of course suspect.

I simply feel the article needs to stress the point that old measurements may not be so fantastic when one takes into account 150 years of logging, and 90-95 % deforestation of Old Growth.

--71.222.40.209 05:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

All of that would be a fine addition to the article, if written a little more neutrally. Do you know of references for any of those? —EncMstr 05:24, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] solitary trees

I feel that someone should produce a section on noteworthy solitary trees, such as the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_Ténéré

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=5245384471

Just a thought...

Ed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.185.7 (talk) 08:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Help

I need some help with my tree. Here is a link to it's site: http://www.ncrcag.com/Tree/tree.html --MahaPanta (talk) 14:17, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cariniana claims

Removed these, as they are not adequately documented. The first one "Cariniana excelsa" from Hartesveldt is only a second- or third-hand report mentioned incidentally in an article primarily about Sequoiadendron, and is not backed up by reference to original details; the cited name itself is not a valid name but a synonym (of Cariniana estrellensis [4]), and searches in both books and the internet under either the correct name or the synonym do not show any support for Hartesveldt's figure, nor even any suggestion that the species ever reaches notable sizes, let alone being the second-stoutest tree in the world. If that really was the case, one would expect numerous references (particularly from Brazilian websites, where the species occurs), and they simply don't exist. This is clearly an error in the Hartesveldt text, perhaps another girth/diameter misunderstanding (divide the figure by pi, and a more reasonable 'large tree' results). The second one (Carinaria legalis, estimate of 3,020 years) the cited reference itself reports that the estimate is considered very dubious by local scientists and is subject to further investigation; we should not include it until it is better verified. - MPF (talk) 09:28, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge of material from Parts of a tree

User:Kushan I.A.K.J has started an article on Parts of a tree. The article was redirected by User:RHaworth, but reverted by the original author. I (User:Whpq]) also redirected to Tree#Morphology, and again the redirect was reverted. The reasoning being that User:Kushan I.A.K.J feels that there is material for a separate article. I've placed a merge proposal forward, and I've asked him to discuss his rationale here so other editors can easily find and join in a discussion.

My reasoning for merging any material into the Morphology section is that the Part of a tree article is identical in coverage to the Morphology section in the tree article. There is no need for a fork of content as the parts of a tree are adequately covered in the tree article, and the article is not of such a size that an article split would be in order. Furthermore, the other specific parts of a tree have individual articles and material specific to each individual part and those articles would be the natural home for additional information. As such, I see the Parts of a tree article as entirely redundant. -- Whpq (talk) 13:33, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

  • Merge. A classic content fork. Absolutely no need for a duplicate article. Kushan, your comment at Talk:Parts of a tree about creating incoming links simply carries no weight at all. - RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 13:51, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose the merge, as I have researched into to this and found out that it does deserve an article as there is much websites out there which give this article info. Also that article can become very large as there is still more info out there to add. Furthermore many people, when researching, research for "Parts of a tree" than a specific part of it, so yet another reason to keep it as it will attract much more people!--Emperor13 (talk) 13:57, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
P.S: I was researching the article when I found this!!!--Emperor13 (talk) 13:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
comment - a redirect, which was what was previously put in place would allow people searching for "parts of a tree" to find the material as the redirect would palce them in the morphology section of the tree article. -- Whpq (talk) 14:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment. Empeoror13, you have been accused before of collaborative voting. I think that you are doing it again. -- RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 16:30, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I think there is plenty of scope for a separate in-depth article on the morphology of trees. The existing morphology section Tree#Morphology is too short. The explanations are incomplete and confusing. The use of wikilinks as indirect explanations of technical terms is a very poor substitute for having good in-text explanations. Diagrams to illustrate the technical terms would be very helpful, but there are none at all. The whole section is most unsatisfactory, but expanding it is not the right solution because the Tree article is already far too long; it takes well over 20 pages of scrolling to view the entire article in my browser. It really needs to be shortened. There are also too many unwiki-like lists. For all these reasons, I believe that a separate, in-depth article on tree morphology would be appropriate and useful. I therefore oppose merging. Please note, I am not endorsing the previous content of Parts of trees, which clearly needs work. - Neparis (talk) 16:21, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
comment at issue is whether the material is an overlap. Clearly, it is a 100% overlap. If the morphoogy section is too short, then it should be expanded. That the page scrolls somewhat is not a good reason to split. There is a table of contents to aid in navigation, and the reason for the scolling is actually the list of Major tree genera. so if scrolling were truly the issue, then the logical thing to do would be to spin the list off to a separate page with a See also link rather than removing the substance of an article about trees to a separate child article. -- Whpq (talk) 20:26, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
comment - Can you point to any specific evidence that supports your view that there is, as you put it, "100% overlap"? Secondly, since spun-off articles always have significant overlap with the corresponding sections of the parent articles, why do you think overlap is a good criterion for judging mergers? The table of contents helps navigate an article if you are looking at the top of the article, but it becomes invisible and is therefore of no help once you scroll further down. It also does not actually solve the problem of the article being too long. The Tree article would still be too long in my opinion, even if the list of major tree genera were spun off into a separate article, as it should be. I agree the existing section Tree#Morphology could and should be expanded. However, I believe there is clear scope for a separate in-depth article on tree morphology. There is enough potential material on morphology to make a very long, useful, separate article. - Neparis (talk) 04:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
comment If we were to take you suggestion that the tree article have the list and the morphology section forked out to their own articles, what you would have remaining is an article that mostly talks about champion trees. I fail to see how fracturing the article in this way helps the READERS of the encyclopedia. -- Whpq (talk) 04:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
questions - What is your evidence of "100% overlap"? Why do you think overlap is a good criterion for judging mergers? - Neparis (talk) 05:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Reply Because the very first line from the Morphology section is The basic parts of a tree are the roots, trunk(s), branches, twigs and leaves. I think that can be about as clear and obvious as it can possibly be. And as for why 100% overlap is a good reason to merge; WP:MERGE, and WP:FORK are good content guidelines. If the current morphology section were to grow to such a size that it became unwieldy in this article, then forking would make sense. But it has not grown to this size. And none of the material from the redirected parts of a tree article merged in here would appreciably change the size. -- Whpq (talk) 14:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Separate articles, somehow. I see room for an article on Tree morphology (or parts of a tree although that doesn't seem like as good a name). Or perhaps several articles (e.g. one for monocots, one for everything else). The section in Tree would then summarize, per Wikipedia:Summary style. There's a lot of material which isn't covered here yet, including the way that branch and trunk wood interleave, heartwood, various kinds of tree injuries, the way that sap flows and gets divided between branches and trunk, etc. In short, I'm agreeing (at least mostly) with Neparis (talk · contribs), and am not taking a position on which text should serve as the starting point for the proposed separate article. Kingdon (talk) 16:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Kingdon, there is plenty of info that is not, and can be included in a page covering Tree structure, including Morphology and physiology, including evolutionary development. thus no reason not to have a few different pages - since to do this subject somewhat thoroughly would produce a very long article here . Hardyplants (talk) 16:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment: a summary style section on Morphology would make good sense if the current morphology section were to grow. And I certainly support doing that when justified. But as it stands right now, is it justified? Note that parts of a tree is not a fork based on the morphology section. I don't see that it has reached that point yet. -- Whpq (talk) 18:22, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment. Kushan, you already have this article in your very own wiki. I submit that the only reason you are pushing it here is out of vanity and to promote your wiki. -- RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 07:37, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment-No, not at all, when I was reading through Wikipedia I found out that the article didn't exist, I wanted to add it, But wasn't sure how to begin, but since I already had it there, I just took it to start off with and also gave credit to the authors since that's the rule of GFDL.....--Kushan I.A.K.J (talk) 13:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment Please stop being disingenuous. The article on the Nature Wikia was created by you (User:Kushan_I.A.K.J), at 12:27 January 8, 2007 according to the article history on the Nature Wikia. And the Nature Wikia was also started by you as stated in the page. So it doesn't really seem like you just happened to find the article was not on Wikipedia. A quick look at the tree article would have shown that the material did in fact exist, and most editors would have used that as the basis for expansion. -- Whpq (talk) 14:30, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment-I never denied neither the fact that I founded the Wiki nor the fact that I started the article, also I did not have a look at the Tree article back then(not up to that section anyway)...--Kushan I.A.K.J (talk) 14:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment - I apologize for misinterpreting your statement. However, not seeing a major section in the tree article specifically about the parts of a tree would seem to indicate that you did very little research and reading in the rush to contribute the article contents from your nature wikia. -- Whpq (talk) 03:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment-Actually I did a lot of research, when I searched for "Parts of a Tree" on Google, Wikipedia did not come first, it didn't even come on the first search page. You can check that for your self. Also I couldn't find any suitable enough text on the other sites, and some were copyright, so I remembered the article at my wiki........--Kushan I.A.K.J (talk) 05:18, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment - what I meant was that if you started at the article on trees, which is the logical starting point, reading the tree article, or even skimming the article would have shown that the material was present. And based on the timestamps of your article on the nature wikia and the creation of the "parts of a tree" article here on wikipedia, it would appear that you were looking to add the specifica material from your wikia article rather than being unable to "find any suitable enough text on the other sites". -- Whpq (talk) 13:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment-I only searched for "parts of a tree" and also I created it there first when I researched it and then remembered Wikipedia soon after.....--Kushan I.A.K.J 13:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from Exploding tree article

I am proposing the article "Exploding tree" be merged into Tree.

It is my opinion the Exploding tree article is really standalone trivia, but rather than nominate it as such, I would ask those in favor to incorporate those facts they deem important enough into the main tree article.

Of course trees have been known to explode, and of course exploding trees have appeared in literature, but does this really warrant an encyclopedia article? Blood vessels and buildings and frozen beer cans explode too, but they have not articles.

From What Wikipedia is not: "When you wonder what should or should not be in an article, ask yourself what a reader would expect to find under the same heading in an encyclopedia."
Also: "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information; merely being true or useful does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia."

Do we find lists of exploding items in our Britannica? Do we find bulleted lists of every literary reference to said items? I think not. I'll leave the discussion here.Nickrz (talk) 13:42, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Exploding trees? W, as they say, TF? What surprised me was the number of people who have been editing on that page, and how long it's been around. I don't know why it's not been moved for deletion, really. A page about an event that happens to trees? Why not have "chainsaw cut trees" or "tornadoed trees"? Maybe "bullet-hit deer" or "cat-eaten mice" are next?--Trees4est (talk) 15:13, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Largest Trees & Stoutest Trees

Been taking part in dialogue lately at the Wikipedia Sequioa article about Del Norte Titan Redwood pertaining to statistics. Comparing that page to this article, there seems to be a similar component that is worth discussing at the same time. The subject is the largest redwoods. This Tree article here, lists the "Stoutest" redwood as one in Prarie Creek redwoods state park. My guess is the redwood Illuvatar as what's suggested. But the Lost Monarch is supposed to be even stouter with a greater diameter at breast height / DBH. Recently, I visited and measured Del Norte Titan and The Lost Monarch myself.

Redwoods Grove of Titans and photos. Indeed, the Lost Monarch is at least 7.7 meters in diameter as I've read online.
The Lost Monarch is also supposed to be the largest redwood for volume, with over 42,000 cubic feet. This is the part in the Sequioa (genus) article that seems to need clarification too. Del Norte Titan is a bit over 36,000 cubic feet. Dr. Steve Sillett would have been the person who measured these trees, and one image caption at his webpage photos (Humboldt State University) indicates that The Lost Monarch has over 42,000 cubic feet. That's what Dr. Sillett wrote there with the image. He also wrote in the caption that The Lost Monarch is over 29 feet in diameter. For accuracy's sake, he did not specify the name "Lost Monarch", but that largest redwood in the image should be the Lost Monarch. It was in The American Journal of Botany (Volume 90)2 pages 255-261 2003, where Dr. Sillett listed The Lost Monarch as 7.7 meters DBH.Mdvaden (talk) 01:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Photo

Photo uploaded Fitz Mackins (talk) 17:55, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the photo, since, other than being a tree (and an unidentified one at that), it doesn't add anything to the article.--Curtis Clark (talk) 15:23, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Problem about the oldest tree

Can someone told me whether the Norway Spruce found in Sweden is the oldest one or not ?Anymore strong evidence showing this conclusion?--Lokionly (talk) 17:58, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

It depends on what you mean by "oldest tree". The Pando clone of quaking aspen may be 80,000 years old. What makes the Norway Spruce clone "older" is that there are remains that can be carbon-dated at 9550 years; the age of the Pando clone is estimated from growth rate. Pinus longaeva still holds the record for oldest trunks.--Curtis Clark (talk) 21:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Parallel evolution versus Convergent evolution

That the tree form evolved more than once from unrelated taxa is an example of convergent evolution, not parallel evolution as stated in the article or mentioned in discussions on this page. --Chris_London_1955 (talk) 10:03, 11 May 2008 (GMT)

How so?--Curtis Clark (talk) 13:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Parallel versus Convergent evolution

An example of convergent evolution is icthyosaurs and dolphins, which closely resemble one another. They are descended from different classes (archosaurs vs mammals) of tetrapod that returned to the sea. Parallel evolution refers to the same feature arising more than once in closely related taxa, for example knuckle walking may have arisen independently in chimpanzees and gorillas, rather than just once in a common ancestor. --Chris_London_1955 (talk) 19:30, 11 May 2008 (GMT)

The Wikipedia articles Parallel evolution and Convergent evolution are instructive, especially the former: "Parallel evolution is the independent evolution of similar traits, starting from a similar ancestral condition due to similar environments or other evolutionary pressures. Frequently this is the situation in more closely related lineages, where several species respond to similar challenges in a similar way." So the emphasis is on the similarity of the ancestral traits more than the relationship of the ancestors.
If we take the definition of "tree" from this article ("A tree is a perennial woody plant. It is most often defined as a woody plant that has secondary branches supported clear of the ground on a single main stem or trunk with clear apical dominance."), and we were to consider Lepidodendron, Pinus, Cocos, Calamites, and Dendrosenecio all trees, then I agree with you, since their closest non-tree relatives have a diversity of growth forms (not just because their ancestors are distantly related).--Curtis Clark (talk) 20:07, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Do trees die of old age?

In other words, given adequate conditions, lack of parasites, etc., can trees live indefinitely; or do their life systems begin to break down after a set lifespan, as do those of animals? Thank you, Applejuicefool (talk) 16:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Trees over 375 feet

The article says that trees may grow as tall as 375 feet (114,3 metres). However, the tallest living Redwood officially known is called Hyperion, and was measured at 379 feet 2 inches (115,55 metres) in Sept. 2006. Hyperion was still growing at a rate of roughly 4 inches per year since last measurement, and may possibly stand c. 379 feet 8 inches as of 2008.

The articles does not give any relevance to the historically reported Douglas-Fir such as the Lynn Valley, Mineral, or Nisqually trees--and this absence is perhaps warranted as measurements were made over 100 years ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.175.75.207 (talk) 20:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Quina

Hi. I know nothing about trees, but I just rescued the Quina article (see its history), which I think could probably use some work. Fintor (talk) 17:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Is Quina another name for Myroxylon? Fintor (talk) 17:43, 26 May 2008 (UTC)